Best hand-to-hand combatants in Marvel?

[Chris0013]

T'Challa is actually a very good example of what I'm talking about, because he has formed his own fighting styles twice in the comics. First to combat the Doombots adaptive capabilities and another called Shadow Combat (being a blend of K'un K'un, Wakandan and Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee's fighting system)). The guy has made reference to Lee twice, and one of his philosophies in martial arts was to take what was useful from various disciplines and discard the rest. He even once said (to paraphrase) practicing one kick a thousand times is better than knowing a thousand different kicks. That's one of the things MMA is based on and the concept has been used in militaries for centuries.

T'Challa is one of the smartest people in his universe and one of the most experienced fighters. He of all people would understand the value of quality over quantity in martial arts. In his case I don't see why either he or Wakanda couldn't have developed a hybrid martial arts system that includes everything he needs to be a complete fighter: the best and most useful striking techniques (including claw strikes), grappling and throws, clinches and submissions, acrobatics, and various weapons training including disarming techniques.

All of that could be one martial art, T'Challa just needs to be a master of that alone, and coupled with his enhanced physicals, experience and intelligence he could be one of the best fighters in the world.

I can get behind this...IIRC...Captain America was originally just judo, American style boxing, military special forces hand to hand training that he melded into his own style.

[Triniking1234]

Shatterstar
Gamora
U.S.Agent
Bucky Barnes
Helena - Black Widow Junior
Drax the Destroyer
Domino
Finese
White Tiger

[Hybrid]

Here's an underrated example:

Cypher

After coming back to life, they figured out how to make his "Omnilingualism" power useful, Cypher began to read body languages and became a master fighter who is able to predict your next move. One notable story had Cypher under mind control, where he took on his New Mutants teammates (Magik, Sunspot, Cannonball, Dani Moonstar, Karma) all by himself, and won.

[JudicatorPrime]

I find the argument of "take all his powers away" to be moot.

We were simply discussing a hypothetical scenario. That tends to happen on threads like this.

[JudicatorPrime]

I kinda want to use this thread to talk about something that's all too prevalent in comics (especially mainstream comics): the idea that X or Y character knows or is a master of 100+ or all forms of martial arts. The kind of stuff you've gotten with characters like Captain America, Batman, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Wolverine and Ninjak (and anyone else).

First of all, it's impossible. There are way too many martial arts in the world. Some of them are still in a recovery process and some could be unknown. Not to mention actually finding masters of said martial arts and then finding the time to learn and master them.

Well, yes, this is the sort of thing that I was alluding to with Gamora supposedly having mastered fighting styles of every living species across the universe. It is not possible.

But this is comics. 99.9% of all of the feats that we see simply are not possible. That's kind of the point... and the lure.

[Sutekh]

Well, yes, this is the sort of thing that I was alluding to with Gamora supposedly having mastered fighting styles of every living species across the universe. It is not possible.

But this is comics. 99.9% of all of the feats that we see simply are not possible. That's kind of the point... and the lure.

Yeah, the same over at DC. Karate Kid is supposed to be the master of dozens of different martial arts, from all different species, and yet *he's a teenager.*

Many years later on it was explained that the planet where he was raised had some extra-dimensional nexus within it, that the locals used to A) hide from authorities, because they were a bunch of lawless creeps, and B) train, because time didn't flow in the outside world while they were in there, allowing some teenager to spent many subjective years mastering all sorts of martial arts, and then step out the same age, with no time having passed in the outside world.

I imagine the same sort of retcon could be used for Gamorra. All the fighting styles of a dozen races were downloaded into her head a la Neo in the Matrix by whoever was making her into the galaxy's most deadly woman, or something, to explain how she could have centuries worth of training jammed into a normal humanoid lifespan.

[XPac]

Yeah, the same over at DC. Karate Kid is supposed to be the master of dozens of different martial arts, from all different species, and yet *he's a teenager.*

Many years later on it was explained that the planet where he was raised had some extra-dimensional nexus within it, that the locals used to A) hide from authorities, because they were a bunch of lawless creeps, and B) train, because time didn't flow in the outside world while they were in there, allowing some teenager to spent many subjective years mastering all sorts of martial arts, and then step out the same age, with no time having passed in the outside world.

I imagine the same sort of retcon could be used for Gamorra. All the fighting styles of a dozen races were downloaded into her head a la Neo in the Matrix by whoever was making her into the galaxy's most deadly woman, or something, to explain how she could have centuries worth of training jammed into a normal humanoid lifespan.

This is why I can give Dr. Doom for a lot of things. Because it's shown on panel him using time travel to learn things like magic, he can in theory learn things in a fraction of a second that other people might need months to master. Time travel is a nice out for this sort of thing. Not that this applies to martial arts in his case.

[JudicatorPrime]

Yeah, the same over at DC. Karate Kid is supposed to be the master of dozens of different martial arts, from all different species, and yet *he's a teenager.*

Many years later on it was explained that the planet where he was raised had some extra-dimensional nexus within it, that the locals used to A) hide from authorities, because they were a bunch of lawless creeps, and B) train, because time didn't flow in the outside world while they were in there, allowing some teenager to spent many subjective years mastering all sorts of martial arts, and then step out the same age, with no time having passed in the outside world.

I imagine the same sort of retcon could be used for Gamorra. All the fighting styles of a dozen races were downloaded into her head a la Neo in the Matrix by whoever was making her into the galaxy's most deadly woman, or something, to explain how she could have centuries worth of training jammed into a normal humanoid lifespan.

I imagine any writer worth her or his salt can conjure up a plausible explanation. Something more than "cosmic martial arts awareness". The most logical explanation comes in the form of the Mind Infinity Stone, which Moondragon wielded at one point. If someone was to establish that she had intimate knowledge of all martial arts techniques amongst all sentient species -- that I would find more credible. But not so much with Gamora. Space is a vast expanse, much of it even in the Marvel Universe that has yet to be discovered. (How can they, when they never seem to get further than Kree crap this and Skrull crap that?) And then there are the countless civilizations that died off, their martial expertise having died off with them along with their technology, etc. That information might be contained in the Mind Gem, but it's not something that Gamora can simply absorb through cosmic osmosis. If they're going to make a claim that she knows everything that can be known about ass-kicking, then at some point they need to circle back and show the audience how and why that was made possible.

Personally, I wish they'd keep it simple. Why not just say that Gamora mastered an ultimate form of martial arts that trumps all others...knowledge which only she has? Sort of like the Iron Fist, only exponentially more deadly. Skip all of the crap about "every form." I mean I'm sure Goliath had mastered multiple forms of combat and several weapons of war. Didn't make him impervious to a kid with a slingshot, though, did it?

[JudicatorPrime]

This is why I can give Dr. Doom for a lot of things. Because it's shown on panel him using time travel to learn things like magic, he can in theory learn things in a fraction of a second that other people might need months to master. Time travel is a nice out for this sort of thing. Not that this applies to martial arts in his case.

Doom would have mastered it with or without time travel. He gets the favorable pen. How he came by his mystic prowess is just editorial housekeeping, so that no one calls Marvel on their b/s and inconsistent characterization.

[XPac]

Doom would have mastered it with or without time travel. He gets the favorable pen. How he came by his mystic prowess is just editorial housekeeping, so that no one calls Marvel on their b/s and inconsistent characterization.

Certainly the REAL reason is because writers wanted him to be, but I think it's nice that there's an on panel explanation to allow it to make more sense. Comics are better when editorial can do this sort of house keeping to keep things more consistant. We could use more of it in comics.

[Tien Long]

Just a couple of thoughts:

- I'm not too bothered by the concept of certain characters knowing a hundred something styles of martial arts. As has been mentioned, this is comics and we can get a little creative with characters. Furthermore, it doesn't hurt to know a lot. Now, I agree with a lot of posters that the best martial artists streamline and simplify what they know. Again, not about knowing a 1,000 kicks, but practicing one kick a 1,000 times. Furthermore, a human, even a peak level one like T'Challa or Steve Rodgers, couldn't possibly know "every single martial art in the world." We can be creative, but within limits here. Still, knowing different techniques and strategies with techniques, that is helpful especially when everyone confines themselves to just the same styles and ways of thinking. Everyone may know Muay Thai and BJJ, but to incorporate some things from Kung Fu or Silat that not everyone else knows? That can be a surprise.

There's a happy medium between simplification and complexity.

- With all of this talk of the best hand-to-hand fighters, man, I'd really like to see some type of tournament set up among all of the martial artists in the Marvel Universe. Not so much a Contest of Champions type of thing, but one that's based on skills and fighting prowess.

[JudicatorPrime]

Certainly the REAL reason is because writers wanted him to be, but I think it's nice that there's an on panel explanation to allow it to make more sense. Comics are better when editorial can do this sort of house keeping to keep things more consistant. We could use more of it in comics.

Well, yes, and it leaves us room to challenge how the housekeeping was done.

I'm still hoping that the Victor Von Doom that went to Hell, and the VVD that returned are not the same entity. It would be cool if the real science-minded Doom was still roasting his bits in some infernal prison or other altered state, while a daemonic High Lord doppelganger was operating in his place. That would be another possible explanation for Doom's high level mastery of sorcery. Now when you consider that Doom supposedly ventured to the nether realms to try to save his mother on a number of occasions, the only real question is when could the swap occur? But that's a digression and twist for another thread.

[Lonewolf36]

Melee



Masked Raider

[mugiwara]

The only one who should know about ALL or almost all martial arts is the Champion of the Universe.
Too bad he is usually portrayed as just a strong guy who punches really hard.