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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Main theme of sam's arc in rebirth was trust and verification . Sam only trusted something that was verifiable. "The Superman" wasn't that. Her daughter is the only person he trusted with his secrets, even the spy secrets. The idea of her lieing to him shook him. Because he trusts her. But, is aware of her biases and faults,Which does exists. He cannot take his daughter's words as verification for the superman. Ultimately, he was ready to atleast try and start the process of verification.







    Phobia is irrational fear. Sam proved his fears and concerns were legitimate, as he died with Clark's secret while verifing "the superman" . He kept his personal bias aside. He kept his professional and personal life separate. He loved his grandson, even with that knowledge. He tried to accept clark as well.it is'nt poor belief. If it was then, why does batman get a pass? . An alien with unlimited power and a vigilante. yeah! If superman existed i would be concerned. That's bullshit. Because guess what? sam was better with jon and btw lois herself, than she was with jon. He conducted himself better than she did.Anyways, even if that were the case why does jor the lunatic el gets a pass? Even with lois's behaviour, trust issues... Etc. It was sam who came back to her over and over again. Not the other way around. That's why lois has regrets Even, clark was better to sam. although, sam didn't much think of clark.

    Nope! He isn't. he is very much a stranger. Jon didn't shed a tear for jor el.he was however sad for sam, that is how it should be. Because Jor el doesn't deserve it. Jor el hasn't done anything good in this continuity.More so he is pretty much a villain. He holds responsibility as the adult for jon's safety. He failed big time.But,that's forgivable. Clois however are not.

    If @superlad theory of Kryptonians and jor el rejecting rogol for being half breed. Then he is a true xenophobe and racist.Jor el has been the opposite of sam.Sam might have been a spy. But, he wasn't a manipulative schemer.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 04:31 AM.

  2. #92
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Knowing someone doesn't invalidate them as your family. He is his biological grandfather and has keys to the universe the likes of which Jon could never fathom. Lots of children meet their grandparents from "the old country" and are immediately interested in their lives, even if their parents don't much like them. It's not that irrational. I'm heavy on nurture vs nature, but blood relatives are not for nothing and usually do have an effect on people, especially children.

    Yes, he was presented as a villain, but considering Clark is someone who only ever sees the best in others and is willing to give them a chance (if he can give Luthor a chance, he can give his father one). Bendis himself in a podcast admitted he knew it wasn't a good idea but that people often make poor decisions to trust their family because, well, they're family. Clark was emotionally compromised. You can't call him out on this and forgive Sam Lane for having flaws at the same time. It's literally the same thing. They're being dumb about family with respect to their own internal decision making processes. Lois is the same. She dials in very hard on her dad's worst attributes and she can't let it go. She too is flawed, but whereas you forgive Sam, you seem to be unforgiving of her. Sam is trying to let go of his bigotry to connect with his daughter, sure, but he still represents and harbors a lot of traits that she in general is against. Sam, despite being her father, is the kind of person she is opposed to by nature. It's extremely difficult for her to process her feelings about her dad because, well, he's awful. Perhaps you don't know someone like that, but I do, and I'm still completely unsure if I'd even attend their funeral. Family complicates things that normally seem a helluva lot simpler, especially when you're not in the driver's seat. It's really easy to see her not take the flag and ask "why can't you let go." It's really hard to have 30+ years of history to check while also at a funeral for said person. But hey, I guess everyone's a paragon of virtue that can overcome their flaws, right?

    Also, I don't know, building a rocket that he researched with all his remaining time to save his son knowing full well it'd be the last thing he did was pretty damn good of Jor-El. Wasn't as if he knew he'd be plucked from the timeline. More importantly, his last words to himself before he died was to reassure himself that Kal-El survived and is a hero that did what they couldn't. We know who Jor-El was from so many prior continuities to infer he did a lot of good on Krypton. At worst, he was an extremely troubled man who did good and bad things by the time he died, but let's not be so hyperbolic.

    And now the part I'm sure you'll call foul on. You're cherry picking your Sam Lanes. Rebirth as an initiative was about restoring prior continuity and melding it with what came after. It means prior stories do, in fact, color perceptions of these characters. It means all the prior flashbacks and stories that informed Jor-El and Sam are still accurate and that means the former was a generally decent but flawed man when back on Krypton and the latter was still a bigot even if he argues he doesn't trust Superman because he can't verify him. A lot of bigots won't admit they're bigots, they rationalize their hate because they know racism is bad and don't want to see themselves as wrong or irrational. Sam's a dick. He loves his daughter and his country, but he sees an alien and doesn't judge him by his character or actions by but what he can do and what Sam himself is afraid of. He's xenophobic to a T. Retcons, like what's happened with Jor-El, do in fact shift those posts around but they don't invalidate everything that came before. We can't just pretend only Rebirth counts for Sam and Jor-El if it's not that way for everyone else.

    Look at Luthor. All the justification in the universe for why he hates Clark and it always comes down to that Superman makes Luthor feel inadequate. I'm sure his justifications influence that, but he doesn't like that Superman makes him feel like he's not good enough and it's entirely about his ego. Sam cannot accept someone is on the up-and-up and not a natural-born American. He doesn't nearly show as much hostility for The Flash, Batman or Wonder Woman. It's Superman he has a problem with. The guy from another planet. If it was about powers, Flash would draw as much ire. If it was about a foreign figure threatening his country, Diana is a princess of another land with many of Clark's powers and has shown she will kill if necessary. If it's about means and scruples, Bruce has many and few. I imagine he doesn't like them much, but it's Superman above all else he distrusts.

    I have family members who hold bigoted beliefs and I choose not to spend any time with them, but when forced, they can be outright civil. Pleasant. Masking behavior doesn't eliminate it. Sam was on his best behavior most likely because he wants to have access to his grandson, which I have no question that he adores as most grandparents do their grandchildren.

    Lois is absolutely in the right to feel she shouldn't trust Sam and Clark is as well for being civil. They have different approaches to how to handle that situation but neither of them is particularly invalid and that difference likely helps them be good parents to Jon. Lois's intolerance of her father's piss poor behavior informs Jon that those beliefs are wrong and Clark's show Jon how to be better than them. It's classic Good Cop/Bad Cop, even if unintentional.
    Last edited by Robanker; 02-16-2020 at 04:58 AM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    If it was then, why does batman get a pass? .
    He doesn't. Bruce has been criticized for using the exact same talking points to justify his paranoia that Sam is using.

    Personally, the issue with people like Bruce and Sam isn't their fear of Superman being unchecked but their own refusal to be held accountable themselves.

  4. #94
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Knowing someone doesn't invalidate them as your family. He is his biological grandfather and has keys to the universe the likes of which Jon could never fathom. Lots of children meet their grandparents from "the old country" and are immediately interested in their lives, even if their parents don't much like them. It's not that irrational. I'm heavy on nurture vs nature, but blood relatives are not for nothing and usually do have an effect on people, especially children.

    Yes, he was presented as a villain, but considering Clark is someone who only ever sees the best in others and is willing to give them a chance (if he can give Luthor a chance, he can give his father one). Bendis himself in a podcast admitted he knew it wasn't a good idea but that people often make poor decisions to trust their family because, well, they're family. Clark was emotionally compromised. You can't call him out on this and forgive Sam Lane for having flaws at the same time. It's literally the same thing. They're being dumb about family with respect to their own internal decision making processes. Lois is the same. She dials in very hard on her dad's worst attributes and she can't let it go. She too is flawed, but whereas you forgive Sam, you seem to be unforgiving of her. Sam is trying to let go of his bigotry to connect with his daughter, sure, but he still represents and harbors a lot of traits that she in general is against. Sam, despite being her father, is the kind of person she is opposed to by nature. It's extremely difficult for her to process her feelings about her dad because, well, he's awful. Perhaps you don't know someone like that, but I do, and I'm still completely unsure if I'd even attend their funeral. Family complicates things that normally seem a helluva lot simpler, especially when you're not in the driver's seat. It's really easy to see her not take the flag and ask "why can't you let go." It's really hard to have 30+ years of history to check while also at a funeral for said person. But hey, I guess everyone's a paragon of virtue that can overcome their flaws, right?

    Also, I don't know, building a rocket that he researched with all his remaining time to save his son knowing full well it'd be the last thing he did was pretty damn good of Jor-El. Wasn't as if he knew he'd be plucked from the timeline. More importantly, his last words to himself before he died was to reassure himself that Kal-El survived and is a hero that did what they couldn't. We know who Jor-El was from so many prior continuities to infer he did a lot of good on Krypton. At worst, he was an extremely troubled man who did good and bad things by the time he died, but let's not be so hyperbolic.

    And now the part I'm sure you'll call foul on. You're cherry picking your Sam Lanes. Rebirth as an initiative was about restoring prior continuity and melding it with what came after. It means prior stories do, in fact, color perceptions of these characters. It means all the prior flashbacks and stories that informed Jor-El and Sam are still accurate and that means the former was a generally decent but flawed man when back on Krypton and the latter was still a bigot even if he argues he doesn't trust Superman because he can't verify him. A lot of bigots won't admit they're bigots, they rationalize their hate because they know racism is bad and don't want to see themselves as wrong or irrational. Sam's a dick. He loves his daughter and his country, but he sees an alien and doesn't judge him by his character or actions by but what he can do and what Sam himself is afraid of. He's xenophobic to a T. Retcons, like what's happened with Jor-El, do in fact shift those posts around but they don't invalidate everything that came before. We can't just pretend only Rebirth counts for Sam and Jor-El if it's not that way for everyone else.

    Look at Luthor. All the justification in the universe for why he hates Clark and it always comes down to that Superman makes Luthor feel inadequate. I'm sure his justifications influence that, but he doesn't like that Superman makes him feel like he's not good enough and it's entirely about his ego. Sam cannot accept someone is on the up-and-up and not a natural-born American. He doesn't nearly show as much hostility for The Flash, Batman or Wonder Woman. It's Superman he has a problem with. The guy from another planet. If it was about powers, Flash would draw as much ire. If it was about a foreign figure threatening his country, Diana is a princess of another land with many of Clark's powers and has shown she will kill if necessary. If it's about means and scruples, Bruce has many and few. I imagine he doesn't like them much, but it's Superman above all else he distrusts.

    I have family members who hold bigoted beliefs and I choose not to spend any time with them, but when forced, they can be outright civil. Pleasant. Masking behavior doesn't eliminate it. Sam was on his best behavior most likely because he wants to have access to his grandson, which I have no question that he adores as most grandparents do their grandchildren.

    Lois is absolutely in the right to feel she shouldn't trust Sam and Clark is as well for being civil. They have different approaches to how to handle that situation but neither of them is particularly invalid and that difference likely helps them be good parents to Jon. Lois's intolerance of her father's piss poor behavior informs Jon that those beliefs are wrong and Clark's show Jon how to be better than them. It's classic Good Cop/Bad Cop, even if unintentional.

    It does. My family is the people that accepted me for i am. I do believe its the same for everyone. Again, why does jor el get a chance that sam lane didn't? The old jor el befor the fall and new jor "oz" el are two different people. Should be treated that way. Sam has no need to justify a damn thing. If doing the right thing is bad. He is.

    Sam lane had flaws. He made mistakes . Jor el was unstable. He killed people. He was schemer who is responsible for the downfall of an entire civilisation.


    I am not forgiving of sam.Sam did nothing wrong for forgiveness. Does black widow need forgivness for being a spy? . Jor el on the other hand, is a mass murderer. Superman should be kicking his ass to pluto. Then maybe he can start redemption. He doesn't get to be withthe kid without safety though. Alas, that isn't what happened. I mean, Lois shouldn't trust sam who is a good honorable man, but she should trust jor el. That doesn't compute.well, regardless she did. And look where that got her. She destroyed her sons childhood.

    Luthor and sam lane in this continuity are two different things. Sam is a spy. He is more like batman. Again, Why does batman get a free pass? After all his contingencies are famous.Sam doesn't need an excuse for protecting his people. That includes her family. And he doesn't just have a problem witb superman. He has a problem with all of them. With Superman however his duaghter had a relationship with. So, they talk about him. That A.R.G.U.S paper's hitlist for contingency had everyone. He questions the source. But, admits the contingency being a thing by the government.

    Melding or not, anything and everything in the past continuity requires acknowledgement in the current one to be canon. Want proof of that, why isn't clark acknowledged with legion? Even, with doomsday clock acknowledging Clark's past with legion. Mainline doesn't. Show me where, sam being the bad guy has been acknowledged as canon?

    Masking behaviour? This is sam lane. He is lois lane's father. He doesn't give a damn about civility. You are accusing him of being two faced. That is rich. The guy would say it to his clark and lois's face. Sam in this continuity is the guy who was abandoned by his own military and was about to be expanded. He is the guy who did the right thing even when it bit him in the ass

    I assure you he is the genuine article. Sam is a racist and jor el the puritan isn't? Please, sam isn't a racist nor a bigot. If he is then i am. Where is this coming from? What evidence is there? Saying superman isn't a man, but an alien is fact. There isn't any malice in it. No,it doesn't. It informs that lois is biased. Doesn't know how she would regret everything she did to sam.she did regret everything . And jon doesn't give a damn. He still goes back to sam. Clark not only doesn't mind it but also he want sam in his life. Good cop/bad cop yeah! Right! Don't make me laugh,She didn't have the guts to face jor el and ran off abanoning her child in space. Then jon is supposed to learn how to be a bad cop from her. Seriously? Don't make flimsy reasons to justify bad behaviour without any evidence of mal-intent.

    I have danced this dance before. It's an absolute travesty, that sam for all the merits and the good he did is the bad guy. Jor el effing mass murderer is the good guy who gets to be with grandchild . And everyone eats this nonsense up. He might have saved his son. But, he is responsible of the demise of his world. I am talking strict this continuity, what's shown thus far.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 06:19 AM.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He doesn't. Bruce has been criticized for using the exact same talking points to justify his paranoia that Sam is using.

    Personally, the issue with people like Bruce and Sam isn't their fear of Superman being unchecked but their own refusal to be held accountable themselves.
    When? People side with him.Just see the comment section.

    He has right to be scared. I would be. superman is an alien vigilante strongman. A great combination. Every version of the character takes law into his own hands. Every version.On top of that he can't be controlled by repercussions. We can't even say we will be able to punish him for a small thing like littering.
    And sam has no problem with lois's questioning. He is held accountable by the government.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 07:07 AM.

  6. #96
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    LOL. He "accepted" Superman like last week after learning his grandson is also half alien and his daughter has been married to one for a decade. Decades after Superman had been publicly active. Guess he just had that one more background check to run?

    That’s not “trust” and “verify” that’s xenophobia hitting loyalty to his family. Like all the anti-LGBT politicians that have a revelation when their kid comes out.

    And the message of Sam Lane and Batman's xenophobis isn't that it's f'n justified. JFC.

  7. #97
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    I don't forgive Jor-El, and frankly you're absolving Sam the way you claim I did Jor-El. He thinks he's being honest with others and himself. People who consider themselves "real" usually just use that as an excuse to be an asshole and attempt to skirt responsibility for it by claiming they're just being honest. It's not. Sam thinks he's a straight shooter. He isn't. He works for a government that is incredibly corrupt and willingly works with supervillains to do their dirty work. He actively conspires against people who routinely save him, the country he loves and everything he holds dear. He is a villain, just as Jor-El became. The reason a lot of us are softer on Jor-El is that most of his publishing history he was decent. Sam never was. Rebirth isn't the only continuity that matters, so stop discrediting arguments based on that, unless you feel fans of Pre/Post Crisis don't have anything to contribute to the conversation, which they do because they inform us of the CHARACTER. But you drank the Kool-Aid and, as usual, just shout your interpretation down at others. It's become exhausting, so I'll step back. You have your view of these characters and are entitled to it, but frankly it doesn't seem like you're interested in discussion so much trying to espouse some gospel you alone are privy to.

    In the end, we're all fans, so I hope DC publishes some material we can both enjoy soon.
    Last edited by Robanker; 02-16-2020 at 07:27 AM.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    LOL. He "accepted" Superman like last week after learning his grandson is also half alien and his daughter has been married to one for a decade. Decades after Superman had been publicly active. Guess he just had that one more background check to run?

    That’s not “trust” and “verify” that’s xenophobia hitting loyalty to his family. Like all the anti-LGBT politicians that have a revelation when their kid comes out.

    And the message of Sam Lane and Batman's xenophobis isn't that it's f'n justified. JFC.
    No, he didn't accept him. He said "he would try" because he trusts lois's judgement. He wants to verify. If sam had accepted superman. Then you had a point. He didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I don't forgive Jor-El, and frankly you're absolving Sam the way you claim I did Jor-El. He thinks he's being honest with others and himself. People who consider themselves "real" usually just use that as an excuse to be an asshole and attempt to skirt responsibility for it by claiming they're just being honest. It's not. Sam thinks he's a straight shooter. He isn't. He works for a government that is incredibly corrupt and willingly works with supervillains to do their dirty work. He actively conspires against people who routinely save him, the country he loves and everything he holds dear. He is a villain, just as Jor-El became. The reason a lot of us are softer on Jor-El is that most of his publishing history he was decent. Sam never was. Rebirth isn't the only continuity that matters, so stop discrediting arguments based on that, unless you feel fans of Pre/Post Crisis don't have anything to contribute to the conversation, which they do because they inform us of the CHARACTER. But you drank the Kool-Aid and, as usual, just shout your interpretation down at others. It's become exhausting, so I'll step back. You have your view of these characters and are entitled to it, but frankly it doesn't seem like you're interested in discussion so much trying to espouse some gospel you alone are privy to.

    In the end, we're all fans, so I hope DC publishes some material we can both enjoy soon.
    So, does batman. so we can agree that batman is a villain. I mean, there were people comparing him to luthor. At the very least, sam has government sanction. What does batman has? He works for a corrupt government like all the miltary people or any government jobs, actually. That isn't a sin. If a government is corrupt its people are responsible in democracy. He is only as bad as everyone else in the nation. He conspires or creates contingency for possible threats even colleagues like batman . And he himself is held accountable, which batman isn't . He could get executed and every info regarding him is under goverment control. The guy could be branded a traitor and he wouldn't be able to hide because no alter egos. He woukd be sitting duck. Which he was multiple times. He dies too. He isn't a symbol. So not ever lasting. Nobody will even remember him.

    Publishing history doesn't matter. What matters is now. I had to learn that the hard way with all the changes. One second we had new52 guy, the next a new superman. precrisis/postcrisis, doesn't inform character this one cause. Postcrisis one was a high ranking soldier. The current one is a spy. And seems to have been that.i haven't shouted anything. If you have anything that states that the past continuity is true for sam, Show me. I will change my mind. These are bendis run, i didn't even use prior one For it to be my kool aid. Besides, even in precrisis jor el wasn't exactly goody two shoes. Jor el was always a jerk. Now, he has just fallen hard.
    Finally, i can be head strong. sorry if i was being difficult. It's just the way i am. I want good stories too
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 08:39 AM.

  9. #99
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    And that's better? How?

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    And that's better? How?
    You implied he let his personal attachments or loyalty were the reason he didn't do something . Right? Well, he didn't.furthermore, he knew clark kent personally. He didn't know superman. So number of years of lois's marriage to superman is inconsequential, when it comes to verifying. things. His loyalty doesn't mean anything. Sam seems to committed to even stop her daughter if she moved against the country. And he does.

  11. #101
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    No, he didn't accept him. He said "he would try" because he trusts lois's judgement. He wants to verify. If sam had accepted superman. Then you had a point. He didn't.
    He's trying to accept Superman decades after he's proven himself to the rest of the world because the fact that he was wrong about him for decades finally hit him. It wasn't a reasonable belief that Superman was dangerous that kept him from accepting him for decades. It was xenophobia that he wasn't human. The realization that his son in law and grandson are these "others" that he's defaulted to assume were untrustworthy or need to prove their humanity based not on their actions but on their origins is what hits him. That's why he shows up drunk to talk to Amanda Waller and questions everything he's done over the years. That's because he finally has a revelation that he was wrong for being a xenophobic ass for decades. He's not justified in saying he'll finally look at Superman decades later. You're completely missing the point of this all.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    You implied he let his personal attachments or loyalty were the reason he didn't do something . Right? Well, he didn't.furthermore, he knew clark kent personally. He didn't know superman. So number of years of lois's marriage to superman is inconsequential, when it comes to verifying. things. His loyalty doesn't mean anything. Sam seems to committed to even stop her daughter if she moved against the country. And he does.
    So all aliens are bad and must be distrusted except the ones he personally knows? I don't think that's quite the defense you think it is. And you're missing the point that he comes to the realization that he was wrong.

    Publishing history doesn't matter. What matters is now. I had to learn that the hard way with all the changes. One second we had new52 guy, the next a new superman. precrisis/postcrisis, doesn't inform character this one cause. Postcrisis one was a high ranking soldier. The current one is a spy. And seems to have been that.i haven't shouted anything. If you have anything that states that the past continuity is true for sam, Show me. I will change my mind. These are bendis run, i didn't even use prior one For it to be my kool aid. Besides, even in precrisis jor el wasn't exactly goody two shoes. Jor el was always a jerk. Now, he has just fallen hard.
    Finally, i can be head strong. sorry if i was being difficult. It's just the way i am. I want good stories too
    This isn't even accurate in the context of the pages you've posted. He was military throughout all of this. He started ARGUS later on. He's not a spy. You literally posted pages of his military funeral. His xenophobia is implied throughout as well.

    You want everything to be black and white and with Sam, Jor El, Lois, and Clark here so you have someone to blame. So Lois is a terrible person and Sam a saint. It's not black and white it is being shown as all different shades of grey. . They are both shown as having trust issues and they are both shown to be partially wrong. It's all nuance which you don't want to see.
    Last edited by Yoda; 02-16-2020 at 09:41 AM.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    When? People side with him.Just see the comment section.

    He has right to be scared. I would be. superman is an alien vigilante strongman. A great combination. Every version of the character takes law into his own hands. Every version.On top of that he can't be controlled by repercussions. We can't even say we will be able to punish him for a small thing like littering.
    And sam has no problem with lois's questioning. He is held accountable by the government.
    Youtube comments aren't everyone. There are a number of comments criticizing Batman on this and other sites.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-a-flaw-of-his

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    He's trying to accept Superman decades after he's proven himself to the rest of the world because the fact that he was wrong about him for decades finally hit him. It wasn't a reasonable belief that Superman was dangerous that kept him from accepting him for decades. It was xenophobia that he wasn't human. The realization that his son in law and grandson are these "others" that he's defaulted to assume were untrustworthy or need to prove their humanity based not on their actions but on their origins is what hits him. That's why he shows up drunk to talk to Amanda Waller and questions everything he's done over the years. That's because he finally has a revelation that he was wrong for being a xenophobic ass for decades. He's not justified in saying he'll finally look at Superman decades later. You're completely missing the point of this all.



    So all aliens are bad and must be distrusted except the ones he personally knows? I don't think that's quite the defense you think it is. And you're missing the point that he comes to the realization that he was wrong.



    This isn't even accurate in the context of the pages you've posted. He was military throughout all of this. He started ARGUS later on. He's not a spy. You literally posted pages of his military funeral. His xenophobia is implied throughout as well.

    You want everything to be black and white and with Sam, Jor El, Lois, and Clark here so you have someone to blame. So Lois is a terrible person and Sam a saint. It's not black and white it is being shown as all different shades of grey. . They are both shown as having trust issues and they are both shown to be partially wrong. It's all nuance which you don't want to see.

    Where has superman wrong?that superman can't go rogue? Anyone can go rogue. He was introspective. He was giving the other side a fair shake. He says "may". And he goes back to business afterwards . He didn't say "he was wrong" . That happens especially when you are drunk. It doesn't matter if it was his son in law and grandson. How does it? The same standards apply.Superman untill proven trust worthy, ain't it.All aliens can be good or bad. Until he knows. He can't verify that. Btw clark is a vigilante alien.

    his treatment hasn't been that of a soldier. He was leading covert operations prior to this in action comics. That sounds like spy stuff. Not miltary stuff. He wasn't general ross-esque figure with tanks and stuff.Last i checked and know, argus was a spy organisation. As for the funeral who knows. Both have trust issues. Yes, but lois didn't put aside her pro-superman bias. Sam was willing to here out the other side. Has lois ever given a thought if superman was a bad thing and concept to the world?

    Lois is the one who treats sam badly. Not the other way around.so she is terrible. And its not even consistent.you can say its grey. I don't feel it is. I didn't start this. I was merely pointing out the double standards of the characters in question. Clois(regarding their decision. Because decisions are binary. Either you do something or you don't ) and jor el. It's like saying harley quinn is a grey character. She ain't. Jason todd is grey character. Batman is grey. Heck! Lex can be grey.And being grey doesn't absolve people.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 09:51 AM.

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Youtube comments aren't everyone. There are a number of comments criticizing Batman on this and other sites.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-a-flaw-of-his
    Be that as a may. Does dc treat it as bad thing? Batman walks out like a champ, the badass the title of the video. And he makes every member look like naive idiots.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 09:47 AM.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Double post. Sorry about that.

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