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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    But Superman (not Clark) has always been shown to have connections to people in Metropolis. From hot dog vendors, to Bibbo, the general staff of the Daily Planet, etc. So either he's a space monk with no human attachments as Superman or not.
    Right. But as Clark he has connections that had no ties to Superman. These people are now on the radar, as well. And that hot dog vendor might be more interesting as a target when you realize Clark stopped at his cart 3 times a week then when he was someone Superman ate at maybe 5 times since Superman arrived a decade ago.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    If you want to get Superman’s attention, just grab any random person off the street and he’ll come flying. That’s the huge crux of the revelation Zod has about Superman in Superman II: He cares about everyone. It doesn’t take killing someone “special” to get under his skin.

  3. #138
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    But Superman (not Clark) has always been shown to have connections to people in Metropolis. From hot dog vendors, to Bibbo, the general staff of the Daily Planet, etc. So either he's a space monk with no human attachments as Superman or not.
    But now anyone Superman saves, speaks to or even smiles in the street is even more likely to be a target for villains with an axe to grind now his identity has been revealed. That hot dog vendor in Bendis' Action Comics, a person Superman has convinced not to commit suicide, a child whose cat has been retrieved from a tree. You're not getting that point when it's an obvious danger for Clark revealing his secret identity to the world that makes it genuinely dangerous for other people now that Clark has revealed his identity. Which makes it all the more out of character for Clark to reveal his identity the way he has and proves Bendis doesn't understand this character.

  4. #139
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    But now anyone Superman saves, speaks to or even smiles in the street is even more likely to be a target for villains with an axe to grind now his identity has been revealed. That hot dog vendor in Bendis' Action Comics, a person Superman has convinced not to commit suicide, a child whose cat has been retrieved from a tree. You're not getting that point when it's an obvious danger for Clark revealing his secret identity to the world that makes it genuinely dangerous for other people now that Clark has revealed his identity. Which makes it all the more out of character for Clark to reveal his identity the way he has and proves Bendis doesn't understand this character.
    That doesn't make sense to me. If a villain was going to target civilians that Superman interacts with or had saved in the past (not a bad story idea actually) what does Clark revealing his identity change that makes it more or less likely that they are targeted?

    Conversely, if people that he had saved in the past weren't targets just because they know him or interacted with him, why are people that Clark knows or interacts with suddenly more attractive targets now that they are more directly associated with Superman?

    To Vordan's point, it really doesn't matter if you target his mom or some randos mom. He's going to come after you anyways. If someone targeted a girl who's cat Superman saved from a tree and who ended up in the paper because of that, he'd be just as pissed at them and take them down if it was someone Clark knew.
    Last edited by Yoda; 02-18-2020 at 02:29 PM.

  5. #140
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    That doesn't make sense to me. If a villain was going to target civilians that Superman interacts with or had saved in the past (not a bad story idea actually) what does Clark revealing his identity change that makes it more or less likely that they are targeted?

    Conversely, if people that he had saved in the past weren't targets just because they know him or interacted with him, why are people that Clark knows or interacts with suddenly more attractive targets now that they are more directly associated with Superman?

    To Vordan's point, it really doesn't matter if you target his mom or some randos mom. He's going to come after you anyways. If someone targeted a girl who's cat Superman saved from a tree and who ended up in the paper because of that, he'd be just as pissed at them and take them down if it was someone Clark knew.
    I vaguely recall reading a story like that in the past but I cant' recall where or what issue. It was good I think. As to why I think the identity reveal makes it more likely for random civilians, it's because there's now a name to his face. Blaming Superman for something bad is one thing but now people know he's Clark Kent. they can come at him for any mistake he makes at any time.

    I would say you've answered your own question in the second paragraph. That science teacher in Superman Heroes is now automatically a more appealing target to a villain than he was before the world knew Clark Kent was Superman. Same with the hot dog vendor or any minor, irregular, one off character from Superman comics that you can think of.

    I get what Vordan is saying but what Clark has done is increase the statistical probability of a random person being killed simply because they've had contact with Superman.

  6. #141
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    I vaguely recall reading a story like that in the past but I cant' recall where or what issue. It was good I think. As to why I think the identity reveal makes it more likely for random civilians, it's because there's now a name to his face. Blaming Superman for something bad is one thing but now people know he's Clark Kent. they can come at him for any mistake he makes at any time.

    I would say you've answered your own question in the second paragraph. That science teacher in Superman Heroes is now automatically a more appealing target to a villain than he was before the world knew Clark Kent was Superman. Same with the hot dog vendor or any minor, irregular, one off character from Superman comics that you can think of.

    I get what Vordan is saying but what Clark has done is increase the statistical probability of a random person being killed simply because they've had contact with Superman.
    Well, he's expanded the pool of people. That I will definitely concede. People like Lois, Jimmy, and Perry, the Daily Planet staff in general, Bibbo, and hot dog guy are all basically at the same level since their association with Superman was already known. I don't see the argument that these people will be in greater danger because Superman is now known to be Clark Kent. Unless the you're saying that the very fact that he had a secret identity is what is going to piss them off?

    Smallville's population is in more danger than they were, but in all likelihood they are probably just at the level of a Lois, Jimmy, or Daily Planet beat reporter or rando Metropolis citizen who was friendly with Superman were before the reveal. The thing is, Superman had friends as Superman that ranged from good friends to acquaintances. Dan Turpin and Maggie Sawyer, Professor Hamilton, etc. from back in the day. That cop and priest from For Tomorrow. The kids with cancer he takes flying, etc. These were people that Superman publicly was friendly with.

    But people like Lois have always been a target. The best example of that is from Rucka's Adventures run. Lois was shot while on assignment to test Superman. Then Ruin sent the parasite twins after Lois (or they picked her themselves) to call out Superman.

  7. #142
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    That doesn't make sense to me. If a villain was going to target civilians that Superman interacts with or had saved in the past (not a bad story idea actually) what does Clark revealing his identity change that makes it more or less likely that they are targeted?

    Conversely, if people that he had saved in the past weren't targets just because they know him or interacted with him, why are people that Clark knows or interacts with suddenly more attractive targets now that they are more directly associated with Superman?

    To Vordan's point, it really doesn't matter if you target his mom or some randos mom. He's going to come after you anyways. If someone targeted a girl who's cat Superman saved from a tree and who ended up in the paper because of that, he'd be just as pissed at them and take them down if it was someone Clark knew.
    I think it's less about Clark's reaction and more the public's. The minute someone in peril begs Superman to leave them to fortune instead of help for fear or being targeted by Metallo on their way to work next week, it may just mess with him. What if someone willingly jumps out of a burning building and hoping something breaks their fall because they see being saved as Superman as some kiss of death? That would definitely get under his skin.

  8. #143
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    What did that press conference actually revealed: Superman plays favorites. That's the real headline. Clark Kent/Supeman will always save his friends, city and hometown first and and the everything else second. He can't save everyone obviously. But how will all the people that didn't get saved are going to take this? Not well I'd imagine.

    Now that everyone knows that the Daily Planet pays Superman to work for them, every whistle-blower and conspiracy theorist would come rushing with info, tips, testimonies. True and false because people are crazy like that. Also people would stop calling the police, 911, firefighters etc. They will just call the Daily Planet and ask for Superman!

    Also where did this decision actually come from? What happened in Clark's life that pushed him enough to go through with this? Some sarcastic remarks from Adam Strange? We've never seen him as Clark Kent struggling with the secret identity. Ever. The only thing that touched that was the photograph thing. Another seriously misstep and OOC moment here. Clark and Lois have been making out in the air for years now. If someone was remotely watching Clark would hear/see/know. This is not something he would forget also. It's like we forgetting to use our keys to enter our house.

    What's the goal here? Where are we going with this? What stories are we gonna get that we couldn't before? Why is everyone in the Justice League happy and cheering this? Are the others going to follow the same example? We get the reveal and we almost immediately jump to space to see him struggle with Mongul. Who now is a serious threat again. Guess Clark is in a better mood this time so he's not punching hard enough. On the other book, meanwhile, we're stuck with terrible artwork and crossover hell (year of the villain/Leviathan stuff). Bendis got inspiration from Superman IV. He makes a nonsense decision and the world just goes along with it because "inspirational" and "hope".

    Still I don't think it's worse than Grounded. It really isn't. Not yet anyway. I'm still enjoying some parts despite my rant But it sure feels and reads out of character the same way that Grounded did.

  9. #144
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    To answer the OP's question...no. There have been far worse stories about Superman and even about this very idea (looking at you TRUTH!) but I'm not going to lie and say I like the concept on a fundamental level. On paper,I should hate it.


    Surprisingly,I've been enjoying this story arc so far. Far more than I thought I would. Time will tell how it will all go,but I'm cautiously optimistic.

    I mean,the character is 80 years old. You sort of have to do some new things from time to time. No doubt it isnt sustainable in the long term no matter if Bendis says it's permanent. It will be undone to some degree eventually. When and how remains to be seen. Eventually things will revert back to the default,as it always has with Superman and always will. Until then I'm willing to enjoy the ride.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  10. #145
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Superman Rebirth was the low point for the character. The current stuff is probably the strongest the titles have been in a decade.
    I loved early new 52 by grant. Then the final stories surrounding 52 supermans death In the final days of superman, and loved every action comic in the rebirth arc...


    What are some of your favourite pre new 52 tpbs?

    I hear a lot of people say superman was so much better pre new 52... what tpbs or Omnibus should I collect.

    I've only been reading for about 4 years so haven't read as much of the older stuff

  11. #146
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well, one thing to keep in mind is that one person's "great story" is another person's abomination on paper. And Superman has been around a long time, there's a lot of different versions of him, and each have their fans.

    If you enjoyed Morrison's Action, then try his All-Star Superman and his JLA. I'd also recommend the recently finished Superman Smashes the Klan mini by Yang, which is a fantastic story for any kind of fan at all.

    The Golden Age collections might work for you, if you liked Morrison's first few Action issues in the t-shirt. The craft of those early comics isn't what we're used to today, but there's a raw energy and power in them that I have always greatly appreciated, and it's that spirit Morrison is channeling in his Action run.

    Are you reading Bendis? Some hate it, some love it, might be worth a look. The art is almost always great, if nothing else. The Superman title has typically been the more cosmic, "Superman doing Superman stuff" title while Action has been usually more focused on Metropolis and the supporting cast, though that's kinda flipped in the last few issues. Something there might float your boat.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  12. #147
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menacer View Post
    I loved early new 52 by grant. Then the final stories surrounding 52 supermans death In the final days of superman, and loved every action comic in the rebirth arc...


    What are some of your favourite pre new 52 tpbs?

    I hear a lot of people say superman was so much better pre new 52... what tpbs or Omnibus should I collect.

    I've only been reading for about 4 years so haven't read as much of the older stuff
    Birthright by Waid and American Alien by Landis are two great origins (Landis is a known jack*** though, so I can understand if you want to skip AA because of that).

    Superman: The Black Ring is the final pre-Flashpoint Lex Luthor story and it is phenomenal. Last Son of Krypton is a fun collection of Superman vs. Brainiac and Superman vs. Zod by Geoff Johns. Up, Up, and Away by Johns and Busiek is a Hush-style story where Superman runs through a gauntlet of his Rogues Gallery.

    Superman/Batman by Loeb is a fun series, you may have seen the two animated movies that adapted stories from this run.

    Superman: Red Son is one of the greatest Superman stories ever and is an Elseworld take about what if Superman’s rocket landed in the Soviet Union. It’s getting an animated movie that comes out next week.

    Otherwise Ascended makes some good recommendations if you’re looking for stories similar in tone to the New 52. Keep in mind that Superman is a character that has changed dramatically over the years. What one person considers to be the “real Superman” or to be “better” is subjective. There’s some great Superman stories from before Flashpoint, and there’s a lot of trash that sucks and is not at all better than the worst of the New 52.
    Last edited by Vordan; 02-20-2020 at 06:05 PM.

  13. #148
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    It's all subjective but I'd say the stuff we had right before the reboot, 2009-2010, was some of the worst I've ever read. The only saving grace of Grounded was Chris Roberson injecting some of his own ideas into JMS' outline, and that stuff was great, Morrison-esque quality. Black Ring is maybe my second favorite Lex story ever, but I don't know if it counts as a Superman recommendation since Clark doesn't even appear until the last issue or two. If it does, then Luthor by Azzarello deserves a recommendation for being the best Lex story ever.

    Birthright and American Alien are excellent suggestions....I'm not sure if either are "New52-ish" enough, but they're excellent stories, even if Waid has apparently gone off the deep end with his politics (or so I hear) and Landis is rumored to be a total d-bag who deserves many punches to the spleen.

    Greg Pak, who wrote some of the New52 Action stuff (Subterra, Horrorville, tie-ins with Doomed and Truth) wrote the New52 Batman-Superman title. I wasn't too thrilled with most of his run there but the first arc (which has t-shirt era Superman) was pretty damn good.

    There's a recommendation thread at the top of the forums. I'd say look there, and then give the stuff that sounds interesting a Google, to see if it fits with your sensibilities. Being a New52 fan doesn't give us a lot to go on, even within that brief era there's several different flavors.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  14. #149
    Spectacular Member Menacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It's all subjective but I'd say the stuff we had right before the reboot, 2009-2010, was some of the worst I've ever read. The only saving grace of Grounded was Chris Roberson injecting some of his own ideas into JMS' outline, and that stuff was great, Morrison-esque quality. Black Ring is maybe my second favorite Lex story ever, but I don't know if it counts as a Superman recommendation since Clark doesn't even appear until the last issue or two. If it does, then Luthor by Azzarello deserves a recommendation for being the best Lex story ever.

    Birthright and American Alien are excellent suggestions....I'm not sure if either are "New52-ish" enough, but they're excellent stories, even if Waid has apparently gone off the deep end with his politics (or so I hear) and Landis is rumored to be a total d-bag who deserves many punches to the spleen.

    Greg Pak, who wrote some of the New52 Action stuff (Subterra, Horrorville, tie-ins with Doomed and Truth) wrote the New52 Batman-Superman title. I wasn't too thrilled with most of his run there but the first arc (which has t-shirt era Superman) was pretty damn good.

    There's a recommendation thread at the top of the forums. I'd say look there, and then give the stuff that sounds interesting a Google, to see if it fits with your sensibilities. Being a New52 fan doesn't give us a lot to go on, even within that brief era there's several different flavors.
    I've read books from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s etc..

    My collection is in the hundreds of tons...

    Material I dont want to reread I trade into my local book store for credit for more books...

    I'm not specifically looking for new52ish type books... I'm just always hearing from people that pre new52 everything was better...

    I've read some great stuff pre new 52... but loads of the 52 stuff I read or rebirth stuff I read or now the current dc universe runs ...well I've read good stuff from all eras and bad stuff too... from all eras

    I just am genuinely curious which trades to grab prior to 2010, prior to flashpoint... that are so damn great...

    I am half way through all star superman... I'm enjoying it and am still waiting for it to really get awesome tho... I got a problem with the art tho... specificly supermans baggy sweatpants superman suit and the booty shorts dont do it for me... either use the traditional shorts or dont draw then at all... or at least make them not look like baggy gotch..

    I own the first 3 issues from birthright and bought them upon there release in the 90s... I always hated the art and personal dont like origin stories... so likely wont collect the trade and finish reading it.


    I'm interested to see what bendis does. I own man of steel and want to read his superman and action comics... granted man of steel was a bit forgettable ....

    I own for example every issue blue and red superman appeared in... 70ish issues.. I love Transformed and the Millennium giants finale

    People say bendis is trash, or rebirth sucked, or new 52 sucked.. I'm always just curious what they are reading then that's so great... red son and all star are frequently metoned but these are mini series and not of the man of steel, action comics, superman, adventures of superman, etc etc regular runs

    I will have to see what this thread with recommendations lists... definitely seems like few trades are mentioned tho from the regular titles between 1995 and flashpoint...

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Superman and Batman’s “best” stories tend not to be the ongoing monthlies, but moreso stand-alone trades that operate outside the main continuity. The reason for that is that the main books a lot of times get bogged down in DC’s obsession with trying to clean up their cluster**** of a continuity. Supes has had some great runs in his main books now and then, but a lot of trash as well. And to be perfectly blunt, a lot of the glorification of Pre-Flashpoint is nostalgia. Whatever you read as a kid tends to be stuff you look back fondly on. Not to say the New 52 was flawless because it wasn’t, no era is, but there were a lot of problems with Superman by the time the reboot hit, and frankly I welcomed the reboot when it did hit. Superman needed to just start over at that point.

    You say don’t like origin stories and I can totally relate to that. I’m as sick of retellings of Superman’s origin stories as one can possibly be. It’s a thoroughly exhausted story at this point in my eyes. Unfortunately it’s a story that DC is obsessed with retelling and is one of the main focuses of standalone Superman books. But there are plenty of other books that aren’t origins. Adventures of Superman is a collection of one and done storyline and there’s a lot of good stories there. Smallville Season 11 is a fantastic Superman run that takes place after the TV show. It’s great regardless of whether or not you liked Smallville.
    Last edited by Vordan; 02-20-2020 at 09:00 PM.

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