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  1. #106
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Where has superman wrong?that superman can't go rogue? Anyone can go rogue. He was introspective. He was giving the other side a fair shake. He says "may". And he goes back to business . He didn't say "he was wrong" . That happens especially when you are drunk. It doesn't matter if it was his son in law and grandson. How does it? The same standards apply.Superman untill proven trust worthy, ain't it.
    It's been DECADES. What was he doing for the last 20 years? This is ridiculous. He wasn't being introspective, he's xenophobic. If I say all people of a certain nationality or country of origin are default untrustworthy until I can personally verify that they are loyal, I'm not being introspective, I'm being xenophobic. That is what Sam Lane has been portrayed as for the last 20 years. He's not being reasonable. He's paranoid and doesn't trust people. That is what he himself admits. That's not meant to be portrayed as a good thing. That is a character fault.

    Sam's coming around isn't validation of his viewpoint. He's admitting to Lois and himself that he needed to change and open up. She admitted she herself has to open up to him first on the hope that it would get him to see he can trust people. You're completely missing the point of this whole arc because you want to vilify Lois. He's not "verifying" Clark or Superman are ok, if that was the issue he literally could have done that at any point in the past. He's not even doing that now. He's not applying the same standards here. What he is doing is for the first time he's trusting Lois and opening himself up to others. That's the scene where he goes back to Lois' hotel to talk to her after she tells him about Clark. That's the whole point of that scene. That's his arc here.

    Both have trust issues. Yes, but lois didn't put aside her pro-superman bias. Sam was willing to here out the other side.
    Decades later! After finding out his grandson is an alien!

    Has lois ever given a thought if superman was a bad thing and concept to the world?
    I don't think that is the take away from Superman. But even if it was, it has been decades since Superman appeared in this universe. Come on man. This isn't a few months after he first appears, it's been like 15-20 years. You're being completely disingenuous here.

    Lois is the one who treats sam badly. Not the other way around. so she is terrible.
    He alienated her and her sister for years. He admits as much. His inability to trust people isn't a good thing. It's pathological. He acknowledges this. He acknowledges he was wrong. He wants to change and is willing to try to change so he can open up to Lois, Clark, and Jon. He implies as much to Amanda Waller and explicitly states this to Lois. He's not blameless in this because he created the environment where she felt she had to hide things from him over the years.

    And its not even consistent.you can say its grey. I don't feel it is. I didn't start this. I was merely pointing out the double standards of the characters in question. Clois(regarding their decision. Because decisions are binary. Either you do something or you don't ) and jor el. It's like saying harley quinn is a grey character. She ain't. Jason todd is grey character. Batman is grey. Heck! Lex can be grey.
    None of this is binary. Literally none.
    Last edited by Yoda; 02-16-2020 at 10:49 AM.

  2. #107
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    I would like a proper finish to the Tomasi storyline. I also want the Rebirth costume back at some point. Sorry, the trunks ain't cutting it. On Jon, how about a compromise. Both Jon and Damien be the same age of about 13 years old. Also, Jor Wl capital punishment storyline because he blew up Krypton story made me ill, nauseated. A cheap ending, that needs to be fixed. At some point, I hope Bendis moves on to doing what he does best, making secondary characters good. He's terrible at legacy characters.

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I kinda see the "secret identity" thing as a weird relic. hiding your identity like that in modern society just doesn't make sense. Especially since it's actually only a few characters that do that.

  4. #109
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    I've stopped reading the books (since September) so I don't have any opinion. If I hear good things about the reveal I might pick up the trade(s).
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  5. #110
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Well, on the actual topic...

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolfan View Post
    Have you read any Marvel books lately? The DC books have most of 'em wooped by a mile.
    The weird thing is that I think losing Bendis has helped Marvel. DC seemed more spread out creatively. Where Johns would have a major storyline that wouldn't really affect the other big writers to an extent and there would be a ton of fringe books, Marvel would have two huge events going to dominate like 90% of the line, and at least one of those was under Bendis in addition to his regular titles. Now X-Men are safely back to their own corner and none of the solo Avengers are even subject to the main title for example. Of course it's not just the presence of Bendis or quality of his work, but still.

    At the onset he was writing both Superman titles and YJ as well as a massive list of unrelated titles. I thought it was affecting the quality of his work but apparently not.
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  6. #111
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    You know, even if DC is a bit more destabilized, Bendis coming over means we got Batman Universe, Wonder Comics and some of the best Action Comics I'd read in years. He's had his misses, but I've had a good time with his arrival, sans Jon aging up of course.

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    It's been DECADES. What was he doing for the last 20 years? This is ridiculous. He wasn't being introspective, he's xenophobic. If I say all people of a certain nationality or country of origin are default untrustworthy until I can personally verify that they are loyal, I'm not being introspective, I'm being xenophobic. That is what Sam Lane has been portrayed as for the last 20 years. He's not being reasonable. He's paranoid and doesn't trust people. That is what he himself admits. That's not meant to be portrayed as a good thing. That is a character fault.

    Sam's coming around isn't validation of his viewpoint. He's admitting to Lois and himself that he needed to change and open up. She admitted she herself has to open up to him first on the hope that it would get him to see he can trust people. You're completely missing the point of this whole arc because you want to vilify Lois. He's not "verifying" Clark or Superman are ok, if that was the issue he literally could have done that at any point in the past. He's not even doing that now. He's not applying the same standards here. What he is doing is for the first time he's trusting Lois and opening himself up to others. That's the scene where he goes back to Lois' hotel to talk to her after she tells him about Clark. That's the whole point of that scene. That's his arc here.

    Decades later! After finding out his grandson is an alien!



    I don't think that is the take away from Superman. But even if it was, it has been decades since Superman appeared in this universe. Come on man. This isn't a few months after he first appears, it's been like 15-20 years. You're being completely disingenuous here.



    He alienated her and her sister for years. He admits as much. His inability to trust people isn't a good thing. It's pathological. He acknowledges this. He acknowledges he was wrong. He wants to change and is willing to try to change so he can open up to Lois, Clark, and Jon. He implies as much to Amanda Waller and explicitly states this to Lois. He's not blameless in this because he created the environment where she felt she had to hide things from him over the years.



    None of this is binary. Literally none.
    I don't know. He was doing the same stuff he did before in story, i guess.Thinking about your own life decision is xenophobic? Huh? He doesn't say that,though. He doesn't single out a single group. Everyone has to earn his trust,Even Alien vigilantes who don't answer to anyone . Again, last 20 years portrayal doesn't matter. 8 years ago superman was this crusading dude in a jeans and tshirt. Now, he ain't. This is comics. Thing change and things stay the same. A little bit paranoid, but he is pretty much justified. Sometimes not trusting people is needed. Like jor el was untrustworthy.

    Nope! Lois and sam always argued. Better late than never. Lois never went to his side of the isle. It doesn't matter if his grandson is an alien. He would need to earn his trust as well.

    How can he verify superman is ok? He couldn't do that, even with knowledge that his son in law is superman. Let alone as strangers. What's he going to do? Go up to him and be like"hello mr.superman, are you by any chance going to be a threat to the country or going to go rouge anytime soon?btw, great vigilante work that isn't sanctioned by the government".

    Even though, lois hid this secret and especially when sam used to tell her spy secrets . He said, he will try. and he trusts lois, like you said.That is verification.he is doing what he has been doing. so, How is he not applying same standard?That doesn't mean he believes in superman nor does he view lois as an unbiased source. He wants a more first person idea on superman. Even, then he might reject the whole thing. I mean, an alien vigilante with unlimited power running around. Yeah! That's acceptable. In mars maybe. Trust is earned.

    Why not? It's can be an easy take away for me atleast . So what? How many years passed is irrelevant. He is still a vigilante. He still doesn't answer to anyone. He still isn't accountable. Show me one time lois writing an article that criticised superman, showcasing how unaccountable he is or how dangerous he is. She doesn't because she is personally involved with superman.

    He did alienate them. But, he never wrote them of. He always came back for an argument. He would go away when thing feel like it escalated.sometimes, Clark would play the middle man and bring them together . Nope! He didn't. He says " she may, after all convinced me that i have been playing this all wrong". And then right after that ,he looks down and then he goes right back to spy stuff with Amanda. Proving that he isn't entirely convinced and he is going to keep walking the same path. Those are all your interpretations. Sam was always open. He was even sharing his mission informations. That's as trusting as you can get. Lois on the other hand wasn't. Sam wasn't the one with a secret. Why would he need to open up? If trusting only people who have earned is pathological(which sam did) . Then what?what isn't pathological? Is it Trusting everybody or trusting nobody?Oh! Please! Lois being made to do anything is big joke. She is strong independent woman.But, if she didn't trust that's fine. But, then she is goes and trusts jor el. Yeah! That is double standard.

    It is binary. How can action be not binary? Lois is either going to do something or not. Juding a person by his/her action is the right thing. That makes jor el pretty much a villain. Clois are terrible parents and lois not that great daughter.even if these guys are grey. That doesn't absolve them of their actions.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-16-2020 at 02:23 PM.

  8. #113
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    This is pointless. None of that even makes sense internally. You're contradicting your own points back and forth. I'm done.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Be that as a may. Does dc treat it as bad thing? Batman walks out like a champ, the badass the title of the video. And he makes every member look like naive idiots.
    Some times yes, some times no. Kind of like with Sam Lane.

  10. #115
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    How am i contradicting myself? "Trust but verify".
    Lois says "superman is great"
    Is everyone supposed to take her word for it?
    Sam say "I think you like superman too much that clouds your judgement . Let me get a crack at him"
    This whole thing just screams Why the cast is incomplete. There isn't anyone who gets real with superman. Spiderman gets his ass handed to him by people, daily bugle.. Etc. Batman does too. Batman is treated as vigilante. I am glad that dailystar is reintroduced. Superman needs that. Hopefully, they could have a high profile character. Lana is there. But, she is as biased one way or another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Some times yes, some times no. Kind of like with Sam Lane.
    The only time, i have seen is bvs. Otherwise, batman is the human challenging gods.

  11. #116
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Otherwise, batman is the human challenging gods.
    I've seen times when Batman took on the role of Icarus though. "I have god-killer weapons, what could go wrong?" "Oh wait the god knows what weapon I have! AAAhhh!!!!"

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    He has. But generally, he is the people's champion who stole the fire from the gods . DC serves that more often than not and people eat that up. So they serve them more.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I've seen times when Batman took on the role of Icarus though. "I have god-killer weapons, what could go wrong?" "Oh wait the god knows what weapon I have! AAAhhh!!!!"
    It's more like "someone else found out about my god-killer weapons and then turned them on the gods and the people I was supposed to be protecting from the gods".

  14. #119
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's more like "someone else found out about my god-killer weapons and then turned them on the gods and the people I was supposed to be protecting from the gods".
    Well, yes, that is also a thing that has happened more than once.

    Seriously, why does ANYONE trust Batman?

  15. #120
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, yes, that is also a thing that has happened more than once.

    Seriously, why does ANYONE trust Batman?
    Because he makes DC a lot of money. If not for that and the fact that people automatically assume he's a good guy, Bruce would be considered DC's biggest villain. He's certainly done more to endanger the world than most villains.
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