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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    He has done everything people have predicted. I was myself surprised by how accurate they were.
    Like when he immediately broke up Lois and Clark, or when he turned Jon evil?
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Superman Rebirth was the low point for the character. The current stuff is probably the strongest the titles have been in a decade.
    Rebirth sold better despite having a non a-list team of Tomasi/Jurgen. If anything the current superbooks under BMB are probably the lowest point of the franchise since the disaster that was Divergence. Bendis is just more evidence that the types of teams that current day Superman editorial wants just don't mix well with the books and that "shaking" things up the infinite time won't get better results. The readership wants more longterm stability more than anything else.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 02-14-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Like when he immediately broke up Lois and Clark, or when he turned Jon evil?
    Breaking up lois and turning jon evil might have happened too. Thankfully, there were backlashes to even breaking up the family and jon's superboy-prime look wasn't exactly embraced with smiles. Btw, they have done the breaking up family thing. Successfully i might add.cheeky! damn cheeky!

    Lois is in her book and doesn't get meaningfull interactions with clark and vice versa. Action comics #1004 was their idea of such scene, which was terrible . They meetup for their "business" and go back to their own lives. Thankfully, couple of scenes had to be shown with current predicament .which is a positive of the reveal .

    If lois didn't have her book. She is essentially written out.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Breaking up lois and turning jon evil might have happened too. Thankfully, there were backlashes to even breaking up the family and jon's superboy-prime look wasn't exactly embraced with smiles. Btw, they have done the breaking up family thing. Successfully i might add.cheeky! damn cheeky!

    Lois is in her book and doesn't get meaningfull interactions with clark and vice versa. Action comics #1004 was their idea of such scene, which was terrible . They meetup for their "business" and go back to their own lives. Thankfully, couple of scenes had to be shown with current predicament .which is a positive of the reveal .

    If lois didn't have her book. She is essentially written out.
    This isn't accurate at all. Lois costared in Leviathan Rising and Event Levitation and has been pretty regularly been in Superman.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    This isn't accurate at all. Lois costared in Leviathan Rising and Event Levitation and has been pretty regularly been in Superman.
    How does lois starring in leviathan nonsense, have anything to do with clois relationship? What meaningful meeting did they have? Even the death of her father doesn't have an impact on superbooks nor did it yield any moments from clark nor jon.vice versa clark with jor el.
    Either way the family dynamic is dead.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How does lois starring in leviathan nonsense, have anything to do with clois relationship? What meaningful meeting did they have? Even the death of her father doesn't have an impact on superbooks nor did it yield any moments from clark nor jon.vice versa clark with jor el.
    Either way the family dynamic is dead.
    You said Lois & Clark have effectively been broken up and had “no meaningful interactions” in the main title since Action 1004. That’s demonstrably false. They teamed up for the entire second Action arc, there was plenty of interaction in Event Leviathan as well. They have had interactions throughout Superman.

    You’re entire argument is basically “they don’t interact except for all the times they do that I don’t count.”

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by objectivewatcher2013 View Post
    I suppose I could be lumped into the category of Tomasi supporter. I have an honest question. What was wrong with the direction Tomasi was going?
    Objectively? Nothing, I suppose. It all comes down to subjective opinion and what kind of stories one enjoys. Superman comes in several flavors, after all. But Tomasi wasn't following history's example or precedent; a unbiased look at Clark's history will show that the Rockwellian family life Tomasi gave Clark didn't follow the trajectory of the character. The only things that support this are some Silver Age Elseworlds type stories and the false assumption that marriage must lead to children. Likewise, Clark's identity being public has no more precedent beyond some Elseworld like tales from the past.

    I enjoyed Tomasi's first year or so, but he basically just wrote a modified version of post-Crisis Superman, which itself is a huge detraction from the classic, traditional approach. For me, it felt like Tomasi took one tiny aspect of Clark and blew it up into a full-sized Rockwell painting, but discarded every other aspect of who and what Superman is. I find Bendis covers many more versions and "flavors" in his work; I can easily see pre-Crisis and post-Crisis influence in his issues and that makes it feel more "right" to me. I also think Bendis has done far more with the setting and cast. It's been decades since the Planet staff got so much panel time, and nearly as long since Metropolis has been written like a real setting with its own distinct personality. Bendis (amazingly) does the big cosmic stuff better than Tomasi as well, which isn't an aspect I think any proper Superman can ignore. And I appreciate Bendis bringing the UP and Legion back into things, even if he did give the Legion to Jon (I understand the logic, though I disagree with it). Most of the world building Bendis has done feels more organic than Tomasi's, with the exception of Jon's aging and I don't care enough about Jon to consider this a major drawback, it's Clark's story not Jon's.
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  8. #38
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    You said Lois & Clark have effectively been broken up and had “no meaningful interactions” in the main title since Action 1004. That’s demonstrably false. They teamed up for the entire second Action arc, there was plenty of interaction in Event Leviathan as well. They have had interactions throughout Superman.

    You’re entire argument is basically “they don’t interact except for all the times they do that I don’t count.”
    I didn't say that. i said that is their idea of "meaningful interaction" in action comics 1004. Once again their teamups as spys or whatever aren't connected to them as husband and wife nor parents.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Breaking up lois and turning jon evil might have happened too. Thankfully, there were backlashes
    You think there is any sort of chance that Bendis and DC not only literally logically *could* but in fact maybe *did*, *months* into production, suddenly do a complete 180 on all their Superman plans - and what would turn out to be the central hook of the Legion reboot - and did so to appease some vocal preemptive panicking?

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    If lois didn't have her book. She is essentially written out.
    She's regularly in Action Comics and lately Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How does lois starring in leviathan nonsense, have anything to do with clois relationship?
    Yoda was replying with that to your assertion that she's been 'written out'. That's a Bendis Superman spinoff story she had a very large role in. It is a 100% valid example.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    You think there is any sort of chance that Bendis and DC not only literally logically *could* but in fact maybe *did*, *months* into production, suddenly do a complete 180 on all their Superman plans - and what would turn out to be the central hook of the Legion reboot - and did so to appease some vocal preemptive panicking?



    She's regularly in Action Comics and lately Superman.



    Yoda was replying with that to your assertion that she's been 'written out'. That's a Bendis Superman spinoff story she had a very large role in. It is a 100% valid example.
    They just course corrected from the edgy, angsty teen to clark kent-lite brick. Not much of an improvement. Its the only reason, jon doesn't suffer from any impact from a life inside a volcano. Because these guys can't write ptsd without turning edgy and "kewl".

    Sure, she does. But, does impact it. I don't think so.

    I meant, the main books. Written out of the main books. THeir interactions in each others books are not in the capacity of support. But, as guest stars. Its like batman and superman appearing in each others book.

    Edit-look, i concide you guys are right lois had x amount of screen time and everything(still stand by above statement though) . But, That wasn't my point. It was merely a careless statement, i apologise if i offended or wasted anyones time.but, My point was the entire dynamic with the family at a personal level currently is boring and barely exists.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-14-2020 at 02:02 PM.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    The dynamic in the second arc of Unity Saga was basically structured like a Tomasi/Gleason arc. Lois, Clark, and Jon are together For some family time then Clark and Jon go off on their own adventure.

    The central Lois & Clark dynamic has been them working together on stories. So the Leviathan Rising arc was a pretty welcome return to that dynamic. Event Leviathan as well stuck closer to the classic setup for them together. To say she had no impact in Action Comics' Leviathan Rising or on Event Levitation is kinda ridiculous considering she probably has as much page time as Clark there. Their relationship is portrayed as strong throughout. Her appearances in Superman after Unity have been pretty tied into the reveal and their interaction with Perry, a third of the last issue was also pretty classic Lois & Clark.

    I liked the Rebirth family stuff. It was a great palate cleanser after the New52 did it's best to make her irrelevant, but it was pretty weak use of the Lois & Clark dynamic. The best issues for that were the Deathstroke fill ins and Jurgens pre-Reborn Lois' return to the Planet.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    The dynamic in the second arc of Unity Saga was basically structured like a Tomasi/Gleason arc. Lois, Clark, and Jon are together For some family time then Clark and Jon go off on their own adventure.

    The central Lois & Clark dynamic has been them working together on stories. So the Leviathan Rising arc was a pretty welcome return to that dynamic. Event Leviathan as well stuck closer to the classic setup for them together. To say she had no impact in Action Comics' Leviathan Rising or on Event Levitation is kinda ridiculous considering she probably has as much page time as Clark there. Their relationship is portrayed as strong throughout. Her appearances in Superman after Unity have been pretty tied into the reveal and their interaction with Perry, a third of the last issue was also pretty classic Lois & Clark.

    I liked the Rebirth family stuff. It was a great palate cleanser after the New52 did it's best to make her irrelevant, but it was pretty weak use of the Lois & Clark dynamic. The best issues for that were the Deathstroke fill ins and Jurgens pre-Reborn Lois' return to the Planet.
    Yeah! Unity saga's dynamic wasn't like anything in tomasi's run.if it had any inkling of a entertaining family dynamic, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. It wasn't fun nor wholesome nor was it entertaining. It even lacked a point.Furthermore, they had family adventures, everyone doinv things together .No, she doesn't. She basically guest star. She could be replaced by lana and wouldn't change a thing. Those were the weakest for me. Superman and lois have been married for years.i don't want "setting the boundaries" nonsense. They should be passed that. Mine favourite is lois and clark with frankenstein and his wife.
    Furthermore, leviathan is stupid nonsense and eats up action comics panel time as it is for clark. It doesn't do anything good for lois. Her being a spy was great with other detectives. But, it got old fast casue things weren't moving.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 02-14-2020 at 09:47 PM.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Again, you're discounting things because you don't like it. That's fine, you don't have to like it but it doesn't change the fact that Unity was structured exactly like half of Tomasi's run. Or that Lois actually has been a major part of the arcs. Just because you think Leviathan was nonsense doesn't change the fact that it was a Superman story and featured them working together.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Again, you're discounting things because you don't like it. That's fine, you don't have to like it but it doesn't change the fact that Unity was structured exactly like half of Tomasi's run. Or that Lois actually has been a major part of the arcs. Just because you think Leviathan was nonsense doesn't change the fact that it was a Superman story and featured them working together.
    Nope! It wasn't. In tomasi's run, they didn't used to go off on,separately. What used to happen was,them as a whole unit would get stuck in the middle of trouble. They would get stuck in apocalypse, bizarro world, in the middle of Eradicator assault... Etc. Like those meddling kids and their mutt. It was great. It was like fantastic four. It wasn't like four people doing four different things. Ofcourse, they would split up during the adventures. But they will regroup. That's the fun.
    Sure, they would have stories where they clrk and lois go on their own. But, then story wouldn't focus on that. Family came first. They stood as one and fought as one.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Nope! It wasn't. In tomasi's run they didn't used to go off on,separately. What used to happen was,them as a whole unit would get stuck in the middle of trouble. They would get stuck in apocalypse, bizarro world, in the middle of Eradicator assault... Etc. Like those meddling kids and their mutt. It was great. It was like fantastic four. It wasn't like four people doing four different things. Ofcourse, they would split up during the adventures. But they will regroup. That's the fun.
    The Dinosaur Island arc, the Super Sons intro, the Teen Titans crossover, the Bizarro World arc, half the fill ins, and several of the one shots all basically break down to Clark and Jon having adventures with Lois used sparingly and with little to no impact on the story or basically just as a framing device. So exactly like Unity.

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