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  1. #76
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    and when it doesnt make sense, thats the way to ruin a character and make them unusable. Given a villian proper motivation is key to making them layered and not one-note
    Exactly. "Evil for the f*** of it" can be fun at first, but wears out its welcome awfully quick. A villain with plausible motivations for what they do beyond just "I wanna make people suffer" is, ore often than not, a villain that has actual potential for development and growth, which any good character --- regardless of moral alignment --- should have.
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  2. #77
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Accepting and giving into one's dark, evil nature can be just as sensible and as simple as loving yourself for who you are/want to be.
    Why must there always be this deeply profound tragic reason for 'being' who she is?
    Why must it be someone else's fault for what she's become?
    Surely there's agency to be had in not playing the victim card and more power in making a choice...even if that choice takes her far into the darkness.

    Yes it's comics and apparently everything must have "meaning" and must be "spelt out" to be understood but still...

    It would be great to see Maddie master of her evil, transcendent and presiding over her own dark domain.
    A new Selene, perhaps. Or Belasco. Or a rival to Mephisto himself.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  3. #78
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    bc it ruined her viability as a character before. There needs to be more to her otherwise she's gonna be a one trick pony used to cause trouble and dismissed

  4. #79
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    The only thing that ruins any character's "viability" is a bad writer, writing said character badly.

    Take Selene (my absolute favourite X-Villain) a character who from inception reveled in her evil and who, under Claremont, was given purpose and direction and agency without losing any of her true and original characteristics. It can be argued that while she may have been "one-note" at the start there have been many layers added to her since then to now.

    As a converse example...of light to dark...Maddie already has those layers and depth...of which the role of "tragic, ill-used clone, wife, mother, victim" has already been told. I want to see what she might truly be capable of in this new Krakoa Era as a major villain.
    (Truth to tell, I kind of want her to fight for and claim Arakko and become a Hell Lord.)
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 03-16-2020 at 07:55 PM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  5. #80
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The only thing that ruins any character's "viability" is a bad writer, writing said character badly.

    Take Selene (my absolute favourite X-Villain) a character who from inception reveled in her evil and who, under Claremont, was given purpose and direction and agency without losing any of her true and original characteristics. It can be argued that while she may have been "one-note" at the start there have been many layers added to her since then to now.

    As a converse example...of light to dark...Maddie already has those layers and depth...of which the role of "tragic, ill-used clone, wife, mother, victim" has already been told. I want to see what she might truly be capable of in this new Krakoa Era as a major villain.
    (Truth to tell, I kind of want her to fight for and claim Arakko and become a Hell Lord.)
    We want different things. I came into the X-men with Madelyne and remember Scott's suspicion that she was Dark Phoenix reborn, her stint as Anodyne a healer during the Alpha flight crossover and her being helpful to the X-Men before she turned bad. She's been a perpetual victim since her creation first by Mr. Sinister, then Mastermind, then Loki, then the Marauders, et al. including her writers. I want her to come full circle and get her redemption. It's only fair due to the way her character was assassinated to prop up Scott.

    She's no Selene. She wasn't meant to be evil from her inception.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 03-16-2020 at 08:28 PM.

  6. #81
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    And my point was...we've had very many instances and examples of villains choosing to be heroes or at least morally grey characters but we've very rarely had a hero turn absolute villain...could be a very interesting story to tell.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  7. #82
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on what each person thinks she is
    I mean Maddie on her first days inside and outside the marvel universe was pretty much a copy of Jean. Yes there are many diferences between them even at that early point but still many things were imposed on her by sinister, the x-men or cyclops. They all tried to make her fill a role and was any of that who she really was? or what she really wanted?
    Now, she becoming the goblyn queen was controversial and tragic but it is the closest thing she had to her own identity. That identity was born of tragedy but also was when she started to become her own person and not just a jean proxy. When she began to have some agency of her own.
    It was controversial and tragic, yes. But this fall from grace is also what made her who she is for better or worse. And to be honest the end result is something quite interesting.

  8. #83
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    And my point was...we've had very many instances and examples of villains choosing to be heroes or at least morally grey characters but we've very rarely had a hero turn absolute villain...could be a very interesting story to tell.
    I understand that, I just don't think this is the character to do that with.

  9. #84
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    To Phoenixzero23's point...

    For me, what makes Maddie as Goblyn Queen as X-antagonist work is the fact that she's so closely and intrinsically tied to the X-Men...there-in lies the tragedy.

    Let's say she find's redemption and a place among the X-Men on Krakoa...what then?
    Does she reject the offer and walk away from Krakoa to go live a quiet life somewhere?
    Does she freely join the rectangle and turn it into a pentagon?
    Does she avoid having anything to do with Scott and Jean, entirely?
    She and Jean could have a similar situation to Betsy and Kwannon...where things are definitely awkward. But for how long can a good writer string out that plot point until it becomes tedious?

    There are so many story-beats that can be explored but the one that feels most true and relevant and interesting and important to the character, for Maddie, is the one role she actually chose for herself...the Queen of Goblyns.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Give Maddie a lowkey redemption. Keep the dark Goblyn Queen aesthetic, and have her still be a bit bitchy and crazy and (mostly)unapologetic, but not really evil or obsessed with Scott and revenge.

  11. #86
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I sincerely hope we don't get another rehash of the "obsessed with Scott and Jean" plot.

    I want:

    Havok: Maddie, Jean and Scott have moved on. Shouldn't you do the same? Help us. Be with us.
    GQ: Alex, I don't care for open arms and hearts. This is not about You. Or them. I am here for Krakoa "SKRAKOW!" *huge, deep fissures open up smoke, flames and demons spew forth* I have much bigger plans
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  12. #87
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The only thing that ruins any character's "viability" is a bad writer, writing said character badly.

    Take Selene (my absolute favourite X-Villain) a character who from inception reveled in her evil and who, under Claremont, was given purpose and direction and agency without losing any of her true and original characteristics. It can be argued that while she may have been "one-note" at the start there have been many layers added to her since then to now.

    As a converse example...of light to dark...Maddie already has those layers and depth...of which the role of "tragic, ill-used clone, wife, mother, victim" has already been told. I want to see what she might truly be capable of in this new Krakoa Era as a major villain.
    (Truth to tell, I kind of want her to fight for and claim Arakko and become a Hell Lord.)
    Claremont and Louise Simonson werent bad writers but what they did did ruin her viability

  13. #88
    Fantastic Member SchismOfMadroces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    To Phoenixzero23's point...

    For me, what makes Maddie as Goblyn Queen as X-antagonist work is the fact that she's so closely and intrinsically tied to the X-Men...there-in lies the tragedy.

    Let's say she find's redemption and a place among the X-Men on Krakoa...what then?
    Does she reject the offer and walk away from Krakoa to go live a quiet life somewhere?
    Does she freely join the rectangle and turn it into a pentagon?
    Does she avoid having anything to do with Scott and Jean, entirely?
    She and Jean could have a similar situation to Betsy and Kwannon...where things are definitely awkward. But for how long can a good writer string out that plot point until it becomes tedious?

    There are so many story-beats that can be explored but the one that feels most true and relevant and interesting and important to the character, for Maddie, is the one role she actually chose for herself...the Queen of Goblyns.
    Damn, now I'm really eager to see how Maddy and Kwannon will interact in Hellions.

  14. #89
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Give Maddie a lowkey redemption. Keep the dark Goblyn Queen aesthetic, and have her still be a bit bitchy and crazy and (mostly)unapologetic, but not really evil or obsessed with Scott and revenge.
    Yeah, this I can go with.

  15. #90
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Yeah, I can live with Madelyne as a reminder of the hypocrisy and moral failings of the X-Men as a whole, or certain esteemed members thereof, which in retrospect were baked into the proverbial cake well before the aftermath of House of M/Decimation or the beginnings of Dawn of X.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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