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  1. #1
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    Default Classic and Modern Version of Superheroes

    Hello,

    one thing I often thougt:

    I dont know how to explain, but I often thougt that it would attract more readers to DC if they would give each (classic) (major) character a "modern" counterpart who is younger, wears a "modern" costume, has different attitude etc. but is not much considerable weaker (or maybe even stronger).

    NOT!!! replacing them, but acting like a modern counterpart (NOT!! Sidekicks, but be confident and independent...)
    I mean the "classic" Versions are still successfull and many people love them etc.

    I think it would attract especially the ageclass of readers from 20-30....

    I think especially for Superman/Clark it would be nice to also have Conner as his "modern" counterpart, who is more like the Earth-One Superman, NEW52 Superman...also has a more "modern" outfit like jeans,shirt and leather-jacket instead of the Cape etc.


    So like:

    Batman-Nightwing
    Green Arrow-Arsenal
    Diana-Donna (Cassie)
    Barry Allen-Wally West
    Clark-Conner
    Aquaman-Tempest

    Justice League-Titans (both Dick and Tims Generations)

    I for example liked Wally and Barry both as Flash in Rebirth and Wallys new "modern" costume

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Hello,

    one thing I often thougt:

    I dont know how to explain, but I often thougt that it would attract more readers to DC if they would give each (classic) (major) character a "modern" counterpart who is younger, wears a "modern" costume, has different attitude etc. but is not much considerable weaker (or maybe even stronger).

    NOT!!! replacing them, but acting like a modern counterpart (NOT!! Sidekicks, but be confident and independent...)
    I mean the "classic" Versions are still successfull and many people love them etc.

    I think it would attract especially the ageclass of readers from 20-30....

    I think especially for Superman/Clark it would be nice to also have Conner as his "modern" counterpart, who is more like the Earth-One Superman, NEW52 Superman...also has a more "modern" outfit like jeans,shirt and leather-jacket instead of the Cape etc.


    So like:

    Batman-Nightwing
    Green Arrow-Arsenal
    Diana-Donna (Cassie)
    Barry Allen-Wally West
    Clark-Conner
    Aquaman-Tempest

    Justice League-Titans (both Dick and Tims Generations)

    I for example liked Wally and Barry both as Flash in Rebirth and Wallys new "modern" costume


    This is what I always considered the JSA. I always loved and prefered them to be from Earth-2 and generally 'equals'. Alan and Hal were similar... Jay and Barry were nearly the same... but one was more 'science' and modern then the other. Putting them on the same earth always give them an 'senior citizen and past their prime' aspect that annoys me. I want a Hal that's 30 and an Alan that's 40 tops.



    My problem with your list... is that they are all sidekicks. They may have grown up, but they WERE sidekicks and nobody will ever think of Connor as equal to Superman or Nightwing as true equal to Batman. There will always be that mentor/trainee "I taught you everything you know... but not everything "I" know" aspect to their relationship. But Archaelogist Hawkman and Thangarian Hawkman.... They're equals.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Default

    This caters only to a very specific subset of fans, so I'll say this: if Wally flippin' West, the Flash of 20 years, isn't getting a concurrent book... Well, the future is not looking bright for Conner and the gang.

  4. #4
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    They already have this. You just listed the characters. There's going to be even more of this with Generation 5.

    A few years from now, when the classics are returned to prominence, they'll have another set of duplicate characters they don't know what to do with.

  5. #5
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    This caters only to a very specific subset of fans, so I'll say this: if Wally flippin' West, the Flash of 20 years, isn't getting a concurrent book... Well, the future is not looking bright for Conner and the gang.
    True - Jon's basically supplanted Conner, who would have been gone for good (Superman Reborn showed that he never existed, erasing the New 52 one but not restoring the original) if not for Bendis (who brought him back in Young Justice).
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  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    I think some obscure/classic heroes should also get modern counterparts, not just major heroes, just to leave a legacy of their own.
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    I think some classic heroes could use their own books set in their times.

    Works for Sherlock Holmes and James Bond.
    Worked for the pulp books at Dynamite.
    And worked for Sandman Mystery Theatre.
    Worked for All-Star Squadron.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  8. #8
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    ...the characters you listed aren't exactly "modern" these days. personally, I'm firmly of the belief that characters need to be allowed to be replaced, in the sense that their stories should be allowed to END so the next generation can truly flourish. this idea that what's hot now NEEDS to exist alongside (and let's be real here, how down to because DC) the "classics" because they won't let old boys go will continue to divide old and newer readers, scare away large sections of new eyes, and be an overall detriment to real meaningful character progression for pretty everyone in both camps, classic and modern.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    John Stewart is my Guardian.

    Naomi was great, pass it on...

    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood: Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force

    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    ...the characters you listed aren't exactly "modern" these days. personally, I'm firmly of the belief that characters need to be allowed to be replaced, in the sense that their stories should be allowed to END so the next generation can truly flourish. this idea that what's hot now NEEDS to exist alongside (and let's be real here, how down to because DC) the "classics" because they won't let old boys go will continue to divide old and newer readers, scare away large sections of new eyes, and be an overall detriment to real meaningful character progression for pretty everyone in both camps, classic and modern.
    The more that happens, the more you end up with a DC Universe with no original characters, where everyone's origin is "they inherited a name/costume from their predecessor", where everyone's story is a "big shoes to fill" story. The DC Universe goes from a place with ordinary people getting extraordinary abilities and using them to do good, to a place where dynasties have all the power.

    The fan base gets splintered the more and more replacement versions of characters are introduced. We have regular arguments about who should be the headline Flash or Green Lantern or Robin, but no such arguments about Starfire or Beast Boy or Wonder Woman.

  10. #10
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The more that happens, the more you end up with a DC Universe with no original characters, where everyone's origin is "they inherited a name/costume from their predecessor", where everyone's story is a "big shoes to fill" story. The DC Universe goes from a place with ordinary people getting extraordinary abilities and using them to do good, to a place where dynasties have all the power.

    The fan base gets splintered the more and more replacement versions of characters are introduced. We have regular arguments about who should be the headline Flash or Green Lantern or Robin, but no such arguments about Starfire or Beast Boy or Wonder Woman.
    if that doesn't happen in any other medium, or in real life, then i highly doubt it. hell, even the JSA's existence debunks that entire premise. how many characters has DC introduced that don't inherit mantles? a shit ton, and their issue isn't that they have "big shoes to fill" it's that they don't get room to grow. the fanbase gets splinter when you have people who get invested in these new character but they are constantly kicked to the curb for old hat characters who need to tell the same story they told 20 years ago for the umpteenth time. there are plenty of stories to be told with a wide variety of characters, characters and stories based in experiences that you can't tell with Batman or Superman because that's just not what a character made 70 years ago was made to do. you think the Batfamily isn't a dynasty? or the Supers? you're acting like DC isn't already doing that, and the reason they do that is because the only way they can think to introduce new character is to tie them to some other big name so they can always have a backdoor to do back to the same character beats and ultimately bring the narrative back to the big name guys; leaving the new characters in the cold, and their fans jilted. comic fans can pretend that letting a character's story end is implausible but manga has done it for years and they never run out of stories to tell, which is why as the years go by Manga just continue to lap comics in popularity. granted, Shounen Jump doesn't exist in a singular universe but the point is that there is ALWAYS a new story to tell, indie comics can attest to this, and if DC ends up in a rut of "they inherited a name/costume from their predecessor" and "big shoes to fill" stories it's the fault of DC promoting that, not because Clark Kent is so intrinsic to storytelling that no universe could exist without them at the head. mortality and finality are a part of the human experience, that's why acclimating your audience with closure and endings is paramount to good storytelling. the comic industry is dying because people just aren't interested in the same old same old for another 70+ years based in an outdated print media model. I can confidently say I've been reading manga over a decade before I touched a comic and I'll likely still be reading manga until the death of me, I do not have the confidence to say what mainstream comics are doing has that same longevity in terms of relevancy. the most culturally relevant thing about comics are their shows and movies; and that'll only last so long (ask westerns and vampires).
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    John Stewart is my Guardian.

    Naomi was great, pass it on...

    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood: Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force

    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    ...the characters you listed aren't exactly "modern" these days. personally, I'm firmly of the belief that characters need to be allowed to be replaced, in the sense that their stories should be allowed to END so the next generation can truly flourish. this idea that what's hot now NEEDS to exist alongside (and let's be real here, how down to because DC) the "classics" because they won't let old boys go will continue to divide old and newer readers, scare away large sections of new eyes, and be an overall detriment to real meaningful character progression for pretty everyone in both camps, classic and modern.
    The classic characters can have self contained stories or stories that present a possible ending, while existing in other tales. The big name DC heroes, especially the Trinity, function better as archetypes/modern folk heroes in a variety of tales than they do in one firm continuity with an ongoing, serialized and soapy narrative. Such a model is actually rather pedestrian for them. Superman doesn't need to die/retire and pass on a mantle so the story can continue. One version of his death can be presented in another story, while he and his supporting cast can be doing business as usual in another before some other new threat or twist emerges. Ditto Batman who can end up miserable and alone in one story, die young and heroically in another, or semi-retire and marry Catwoman and have kids, etc. They can be interpreted and re-imagined in many ways, along with their supporting casts and villains, which keeps them fresh for new audiences. New eyes aren't really scared away by the older characters, they obviously have no problem embracing them if they are done well in other media. Let's face facts: comic books are not a satisfying or cheap form of entertainment compared to others, and kids today are wise not to even bother with the expensive and annoying hobby.

    At least not the mainstream continuity that often collapses under its own weight. The serialized soap opera stories with few evergreen stand alone stories are more Marvel's thing, and they do it better. But even they hit plenty of ruts and are unwilling to age out characters. Most character progression occurs very slowly, if at all. It may be that the old model of shared continuity storytelling is on its way out, and it may be best for the industry if it was. It can be used wonderfully, but also be a bloated pain in the ass more concerned with checking off boxes and maintaining important events and "character development" than actually telling good stories. Most comic stories that you could stack against the best from other forms of literature or entertainment rarely if ever come from the mainstream universes. Next to none come from Marvel, while DC's evergreen books (Watchmen, TDKR, Al Star Superman, V for Vendetta, the Sandman) are either separate from the main line or on the very fringes of it.

  12. #12
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    The more that happens, the more you end up with a DC Universe with no original characters, where everyone's origin is "they inherited a name/costume from their predecessor", where everyone's story is a "big shoes to fill" story. The DC Universe goes from a place with ordinary people getting extraordinary abilities and using them to do good, to a place where dynasties have all the power.

    The fan base gets splintered the more and more replacement versions of characters are introduced. We have regular arguments about who should be the headline Flash or Green Lantern or Robin, but no such arguments about Starfire or Beast Boy or Wonder Woman.
    I'll keep it short because I had a longer post but my phone glitched out and I don't wanna retype it. so I apologize for my tone in advance

    you would either have to be lying to yourself or simply too locked into comic culture to understand that storytelling doesn't end with folks like Green Lantern or Bruce Wayne if you think that's the case. figures like Jay Garrick and Alan Scott debunk that premise because the industry didn't end with their retirement. on top of that, there is reason manga continues to lap comics in popularity, ENDINGS. they prove that there is ALWAYS a new story to be told to fill the void. DC has plenty of original character not derivative of their "big names" and their issue isn't too many "big shoes to fill" stories, it's not enough room to mature and grow into bigger roles. there are plenty of stories that can be told, stories that you wouldn't and can't see from the likes of a Clark Kent or a Bruce Wayne because they are based in ideas that just can't be expressed with characters made over 50 years ago. finality is pivotal to the human experience, if your storytelling culture lacks real stakes and closure it stops mattering and these characters become a joke. but hey, I'm not gonna harp on this too much, again I don't feel like retyping everything. the industry is gonna die if it continues down the path a lot of old hardcore fans think it should (including the ones in DC's employ) and it's because the every successive generation of readers care less and less about watching these 70+ year old characters retell the same story from 20-40 years ago for the umpteenth time.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 02-16-2020 at 01:01 PM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    John Stewart is my Guardian.

    Naomi was great, pass it on...

    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood: Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force

    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I'll keep it short because I had a longer post but my phone glitched out and I don't wanna retype it. so I apologize for my tone in advance

    you would either have to be lying to yourself or simply too locked into comic culture to understand that storytelling doesn't end with folks like Green Lantern or Bruce Wayne if you think that's the case. figures like Jay Garrick and Alan Scott debunk that premise because the industry didn't end with their retirement. on top of that, there is reason manga continues to lap comics in popularity, ENDINGS. they prove that there is ALWAYS a new story to be told to fill the void. DC has plenty of original character not derivative of their "big names" and their issue isn't too many "big shoes to fill" stories, it's not enough room to mature and grow into bigger roles. there are plenty of stories that can be told, stories that you wouldn't and can't see from the likes of a Clark Kent or a Bruce Wayne because they are based in ideas that just can't be expressed with characters made over 50 years ago. finality is pivotal to the human experience, if your storytelling culture lacks real stakes and closure it stops mattering and these characters become a joke. but hey, I'm not gonna harp on this too much, again I don't feel like retyping everything. the industry is gonna die if it continues down the path a lot of old hardcore fans think it should (including the ones in DC's employ) and it's because the every successive generation of readers care less and less about watching these 70+ year old characters retell the same story from 20-40 years ago for the umpteenth time.
    I think the bigger advantage of Manga is that they largely only have one author and one narrative, and you don't have to read One Piece to understand what is going on in Dragon Ball Z or Berserk and there are no godawful crossovers.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think the bigger advantage of Manga is that they largely only have one author and one narrative, and you don't have to read One Piece to understand what is going on in Dragon Ball Z or Berserk and there are no godawful crossovers.
    Comics could do that.
    What you're talking about is generally the same as primetime network television.
    Each show exists on its own, with maybe an occasional spin-off for a popular series.

    The Arrowverse (a rarity in television) is much more similar to the way DC and Marvel work.
    Imagine if a network filled its entire line-up with shows related to each other.
    CW has come close to this. Mainly because they have a more limited number of programming hours compared to the Big Four.

    But that's where DC and Marvel are. Two big Arrowverses.

    Other publishers, like Dark Horse and Dynamite, are more like traditional tv networks, as most of their comics are unrelated to each other.
    However, they're always in search of that breakthrough shared universe that can carry four or more titles.
    Because if one of those books sells, the pull it creates for the others would likely be more beneficial for them than if they weren't related.
    Of course, on the flipside, new and unfamiliar groupings of books can also sink real fast if one of them is a real stinker. Especially if it's required reading.

    I don't think we'll see that kind of network tv or manga style publishing from DC or Marvel.
    Mainly because, in their mind, readers might only buy one title, if any, with no reason to buy any of the others.
    (And that one title would be Batman.)
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Comics could do that.
    What you're talking about is generally the same as primetime network television.
    Each show exists on its own, with maybe an occasional spin-off for a popular series.

    The Arrowverse (a rarity in television) is much more similar to the way DC and Marvel work.
    Imagine if a network filled its entire line-up with shows related to each other.
    CW has come close to this. Mainly because they have a more limited number of programming hours compared to the Big Four.

    But that's where DC and Marvel are. Two big Arrowverses.

    Other publishers, like Dark Horse and Dynamite, are more like traditional tv networks, as most of their comics are unrelated to each other.
    However, they're always in search of that breakthrough shared universe that can carry four or more titles.
    Because if one of those books sells, the pull it creates for the others would likely be more beneficial for them than if they weren't related.
    Of course, on the flipside, new and unfamiliar groupings of books can also sink real fast if one of them is a real stinker. Especially if it's required reading.

    I don't think we'll see that kind of network tv or manga style publishing from DC or Marvel.
    Mainly because, in their mind, readers might only buy one title, if any, with no reason to buy any of the others.
    (And that one title would be Batman.)
    I think the problem is that the Arrowverse or the MCU are still generally much more coherent with tighter creative minds and much less convoluted history than DC or Marvel comics.

    The shared universe in the mainstream books need to be interconnected to survive at this point, but it's aimed at an increasingly smaller audience who goes for that sort of thing. New audiences aren't going to be as willing to go for it, which is why manga sells better. Or people who DO like that stuff get it better from the movies and tv shows. Stuff like the Black Label might be a better model for the future of DC and Marvel. self contained but satisfying stories that they can sell in mainstream book stores that are new reader friendly.

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