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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Being true to character is part of appealing to fans, and I think the most important because that's what people remember from long time characters. They may forget story details but people will remember voice, mannerism, moral alignment, iconic moments...

    Changing things is always a gamble since comic fans are notoriously resistant to change. These are the people who consistently buy comics and that's why DC always needs them. So it's safer as a business to do it in out of continuity stories, and then maybe apply some elements of it to the main continuity if it's extremely well-received.
    Yes, getting the characterisation right, or at least interesting, is critical.

    But so is being able to put the spotlight on undiscovered aspects of the character, or reexamining them in a new context.

    If we take a recent example, is Harleen true to Harley Quinn as a character? Not really. It hits the main spots of "Mad Love", but it's really Harleen's story, and a Harleen we haven't really seen before. That changes the entire foundation of Harley Quinn as a character: the way we see her.

    And I agree that it's much easier (though it's still far from easy!) to do that kind of stuff in out-of-continuity stories, but that also requires that you nurture the talent able to do that kind of stuff. And sad to say, Black Label is right now dominated by skittishness (after the Batdick) and the same writers who already write over in the continuity tales.

    I'd also say that "true to character" can mean different things. To me, the most important thing is to hit the characterisation, as in personality, and possibly a few core elements of their iconography.
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    That's why DC Ink has been so successful, because they get new creators willing to take a new look at classic characters.
    In is directed at completely different demographic then the main line comics and they have mostly recruited YA-Novelist to write these books.
    If they put those writers on the main books, they would very likely loose a good chunk of their current readers.

  3. #33
    Fantastic Member The_Lurk's Avatar
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    RIP (kinda) Superwoman (Lana Lang) and Supergirl (Matrix/Linda Danvers) :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    .
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    I notice the exception is Green Arrow, though maybe because the Arrow series, I heard, is so different than the comic, that when they tried to synergize, it didn't work.
    .
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    Does not surprise me, the show is basically Batman. Just with all expensive/"forbidden" copyright names replaced by less expensive ('cept where they could i.e. Huntress origin in Arrow; all the Ras Al Gul stuff) + the influx of Green Arrow elements.

    I like it and Amell playing the role. But I could watch it and will still have the urge to finally watch a Green Arrow adaption even while watching it.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    They barely have any Green Arrow villains on the Arrow show....that should tell you something.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    They barely have any Green Arrow villains on the Arrow show....
    Green Arrow has barely any villains.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Green Arrow has barely any villains.
    Green Arrow has many villains...usually with a weapon or color theme.

    No one's bothered to develop them sadly.

  7. #37
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    What works in TV isn't necessarily going to work on comics too. So, I don't think the comparsion is fair.
    Yep. The movie/TV audience is much more diverse than the CB crowd.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    This is, unfortunately, true.

    I've tried many, many times to support diversity...only for the comics to fizzle and leave me disappointed again. At the same time, Batman was having another excellent run and an line-wide event.
    Batman will NEVER have an issue of getting his crap promoted or on shelves. In others words Batman will never have an issue of reaching folks in whatever form that maybe.

    A bad writer or editor will RARELY find his or her way into Batman household. DC will NOT allow it. Batman's book will never be a stealth solo for Catwoman like Black Panther's book.
    No one who has NEVER written a book or comic will get Batman's book like Static's New 52 book.

    No comic book store will refuse to stock a Batman book like we have seen done to others. Because of WHO is on the cover like so many POC lead books have had to deal with.
    I can go to any book (non comic) store and get a Batman book. I can't say that for everyone else not even Wonder Woman, Flash or Hal Jordan.
    I can go to a store and get an OFFICIAL Batman shirt. I can't do that with a TON of folks. I had to custom make stuff.
    I can go to Target and see Wonder Woman stuff on CLEARANCE the MONDAY after opening weekend. That is if it's even stocked-say hi Fantastic Four, Wonder Woman animated movie and even Aquaman.
    I find it FUNNY folks can tolerate "bad" writers on books like Hal Jordan & Red Hood & Nightwing & Teen Titans & Flash Forward & Heroes in Crisis. Yet put them on a book like Damage or Doomed-EVERY flaw those writers have is justification to NOT buy those books.

    And even when we have guys succeed-why is there every single excuse used to NOT capitalize on it?
    It's flood the market with Batman and how DARE you try a Black Panther or Aquaman or WW spin off or project.

    So before we start boohooing we need to look at DC (and Marvel and comic book stores) and call them out for not offering a level playing field.
    Make sure you also call out Target & Wal-mart.

    Don't cry about Duke or Harper or Stephanie Brown or Green Lantern number ____ when there is pure HOSTILE behavior towards New Age Heroes or original created folks.



    That's why DC Ink has been so successful, because they get new creators willing to take a new look at classic characters.
    Those books have no trouble reaching folks because they BYPASS that cesspool known as comic book stores.

    Like Aahz said a lot of those guys are YA writers. Who are names outside of comics and that is why so many do well as trades.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Green Arrow has barely any villains.
    You really think a character that has been around for 70 years, and 4 long running titles barely has any villains? What....?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    What works in TV isn't necessarily going to work on comics too. So, I don't think the comparsion is fair.

    Takes MCU for example. As much as people loves to gloat about it here, not a single successful movie character were able to find success in comics no matter how hard Marvel tries. X-Men and Spider-Man are still their biggest brands despite the former hardly having any media push.
    Why would Marvel care about that?

    Honestly why would they.

    Black Panther made a billion and bought in 3 Oscars.
    Cap marvel made a billion
    GOTG will have 3 films
    Miles Morales had a movie and an Oscar.

    What they have bought in is way bigger than X-Men not named Deadpool could every bring.
    Is Marvel suppose to care that a Black Panther book is not selling? They got 3 Oscars and a billion reasons to NOT care.

    That 22 page floppy is a COURTESY to comic book stores.

    Because many of those books find success as trades or digital. Because Marvel knows the folks who watch those films are NOT going to waste time looking for a comic book store to get insulted or harassed.

    That is why you see DC doing OGNS. Because it will get to the point of bypass that comic book store for many to even sniff a book.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    No one wants make new characters for any other DC franchise because they know once their run is done, the new character is going to get wiped and never heard from again. Batman characters( even unpopular ones) tend to stick around. So we get treated to an ever growing number of Batman sidekicks. Do we really need four plus robins? Damian Wayne essentially killed Tim Drake’s reason for existing and now they are scrambling to find a reason for Tim to exist. When you have so many characters that they start to cannibalize each other’s roles, I thing you need to stop.

    Some of this creative energy could have been used in other books. Then their are the newer villains. Half of them are either completely generic( they could have just as easily been in Green Arrow’s or some other hero’s rogue’s gallery) or redundant. What makes Batman’s rogues so good is the fact that they are twisted versions of him. I think DC really needs to spread their new character creation out. Their are many heroes that need some new villains and supporting characters, or at least some further development of the ones they have.
    I'd say you're both right and wrong. The fact that we have at least six different human Green Lanterns, not even counting Alan Scott, running around does show that DC is capable of investing in other properties in their roster. Like the Bat-family, the Green Lanterns have been built up over decades and showcase an evolving mythos. Also, the amount of Bat-characters might also just be a sign that people love Batman. And honestly, I don't think four plus Robins is that many when you consider that only one of them is actually Robin at a time. Tim was able to find a niche outside of being Robin pre-Flashpoint. He can do so again. Though, it would have helped if his Pre-FP status quo wasn't interrupted the way it was.

    One could also make the argument that the amount of characters does not necessarily mean that those characters are well-handled. I mean, look at Nightwing for the past year and a half.

    However, I think the other issue is that the current editorial simply does not know how to market other characters besides Batman the way that DC used to do so in the past. Either that, or they don't think other characters can ever be as successful or popular as Batman and his supporting cast. Therefore, everything in their universe has to have some connection to Batman. Popular characters that originated in other franchises are folded into the Batman franchise ala Deathstroke. Batman is made the de facto leader of the JLA able to take down characters he has no business going up against. The major events of the DCU are made to center around Batman: Dark Knights Metal, Year of the Villain (where the main villain is the Batman Who Laughs), and now Dark Knights: Death Metal. And don't get me wrong, sometimes, DC should do Batman-centric stuff, but it shouldn't be all the time.

    I mean, its pretty amazing that when the first Wonder Woman film proved itself not only critically but also financially, that DC didn't even entertain the notion of doing anything bigger with Wonder Woman. Like say maybe launching a big crossover event with her at the center of it as opposed to Batman? Maybe have Ares be the main big-bad villain? But, no, we couldn't get that because Scott Snyder doesn't really have eyes for any other characters besides Bruce.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 02-16-2020 at 11:07 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    You can be as cautious as you want because there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise and I'm not going to repeat myself like a broken record.

    And one last thing, "better creative team" is quite the subjective matter. What you consider to be good, others don't (like the whole Azzarello vs Rucka thing in WW fanbase for example).
    Judging by the sales and reviews, James Robinson on Wonder Woman was very much a poor choice.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    You really think a character that has been around for 70 years, and 4 long running titles barely has any villains? What....?
    It might be surprising but thats actually the case, at least if we are speaking about reoccurring villains that are somewhat relevant.
    And even most of his "major" villains, like Merlyn and Vertigo have not that many appearances in his comics especially post COIE pre Flashpoint era.

    There might be of course a ton of obscure villains that only appeared in one story (arc), but if use those you could probably also create a completely new villain.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    It's flood the market with Batman and how DARE you try a Black Panther or Aquaman or WW spin off or project.
    Batman is DCs top seller, who can easily carry several books, Black Panther and Aquaman are sales wise usually just slightly above the threshold of what a book needs to sell to keep going.
    Which means you would basically need everyone who buys their many book to also buy the spin off, for the spin off to be a success, and that's rarely ever the case.

    Even if you look at Batman his second book (Detective Comics) sells at best maybe 2/3 of the main book, and the books of spin off characters maybe at best 1/3 (if we ignore sales spikes due to events variant covers and similar stuff).

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    No one wants make new characters for any other DC franchise because they know once their run is done, the new character is going to get wiped and never heard from again. Batman characters( even unpopular ones) tend to stick around. So we get treated to an ever growing number of Batman sidekicks. Do we really need four plus robins? Damian Wayne essentially killed Tim Drakeís reason for existing and now they are scrambling to find a reason for Tim to exist. When you have so many characters that they start to cannibalize each otherís roles, I thing you need to stop.

    Some of this creative energy could have been used in other books. Then their are the newer villains. Half of them are either completely generic( they could have just as easily been in Green Arrowís or some other heroís rogueís gallery) or redundant. What makes Batmanís rogues so good is the fact that they are twisted versions of him. I think DC really needs to spread their new character creation out. Their are many heroes that need some new villains and supporting characters, or at least some further development of the ones they have.
    Certain characters are more popular than others, simply because of SALES, not CREATIVITY. A character's prominence, even if said character is a secondary character, is based on popularity of the character. This as very little to do with mismanagement, but more to due with the bottom line.

    Then, there's the part where trademark and copyright comes into play, so a character like Tim Drake will never be killed off permanently.

    And finally, there's the fact that fans will gravitate towards a particular character, which, again, helps with sales.

    Personally, you are asking for the proverbial Moon, when it comes to how DC creates and treats its staple of characters, when all things are market driven.

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