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  1. #76
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    There are plenty of fans.

    The issues enter into play when POLITICS of entitlement and agendas enter.

    See Green Lantern. How many folks have to scream they don't want to read about HAL JORDAN? For DC to get the hint?

    We get a Hal Jordan and TGLC book that the artist told folks it was HAL's BOOK and they wonder why sales were not that great. Alienating the other Lantern fans.
    Meanwhile Simon & Jessica's book at times did better than that one. Where are they NOW?

    Other franchises have become Highlander-there can only be ONE. With fuel to the fire being added with Jo & Lantern girl showing up. You have lost John Stewart fans. Simon's have probably left too. We won't talk about Alan Scott & Jade. Because they are tired of the agenda.
    How does a book about space police become a book worshiping ONE guy?

    The Batman franchise (at times) understands what is BEST for business. You expand not hold the franchise hostage over Silver Age lust.

    You can toss out all the new Lanterns you want but everyone sees how the OTHERS got treated. That's why they got one failed movie & Guardians of the Galaxy is on number 3.
    There are also plenty of Fans who want to read about Hal. Green Lantern was one of DC's best selling titles in the mid-late 2000s and Hal was at his most prominent at that time. Writers write about whatever characters they want and if a writer wants to focus on Hal on the main GL book, that is up to them. It is incredibly ironic that you are talking about entitlement when you are being entitled.

    No, GL got only one movie because the movie we got was bad. It had nothing to do with the Lantern or Lanterns who was the focus of the Movie.

  2. #77
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    The “glut” of Batman characters has more to do with that particular franchise having the best combination of solid writers with very few momentum derailing reboots.

    The Flash was the same way for a while, and it saw expansion into the Flash Family. Green Lantern was the same way for a while, and eventually saw that Geoff Johns fueled Renaissance. Superman saw it too for a while... but then started having his history getting pockmarked with new timelines and reboots every few years, and eventually more and more of them became momentum derailing ones, and unfortunately it was around the same time that DC started putting fewer and fewer great writers on Superman, and doing less and less of a good job managing to help the writers they did have connect their stories together.

    And seriously, in the comparative niche market that comics are, continuity consistency, or at least when they allow writers to connect old stories to their new ones when they want to, is an extremely valuable asset.

    Batman, Flash and a Green Lantern all even show that it’s better to recover from problems and mistakes with continuity than to just announce they never happened. Stephanie Brown and Hal Jordan both got shafted by unpopular characterization choices... and both experienced a powerful rebirth when they just built back from that instead of starting over.

    And even the Batman family characters were damaged but he reboot from the New 52 the more it affected them.
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  3. #78
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, not everyone liked Steph getting pregnant, and later getting killed. They retconned the death and the pregnancy was never mentioned again (presumably that's one aspect that WON'T be returned to continuity). By the time she was erased from existence in the reboot, she was popular again (popular enough to have become Batgirl). Hal, of course, became the villain Parallax and then the Spectre before being returned to his original status quo. The only good thing there is we got Kyle Rayner because of it.
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  4. #79
    Mighty Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    I'm personally fine with Hal Jordan being the main character of Green Lantern, since he's been that for about 50 years or however long it's been. Those who want Green Lantern to be some ensemble franchise seem to be people who may like the concept of Green Lantern, but don't like the main character, and I understand that to a point, because Hal Jordan isn't my favorite Green Lantern. However, if you take a look at Green Lantern, it's rarely ever been an ensemble (it was only ever that for about two years in the mid to late 80s Green Lantern Corps series, and arguably the early 90's Gerard Jones comics), and when it was, Hal Jordan was still the centerpiece of the whole thing. So, this ensemble idea is an odd expectation to put on Green Lantern. It's always been a series that has a foremost lead character. This grievance kind of strikes me as complaining about Super Mario games because Luigi doesn't get as much focus as Mario. Thing is, it wasn't really set up to be that way, so I don't think Luigi not getting as much focus is necessarily a fault.

  5. #80
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    No, GL got only one movie because the movie we got was bad. It had nothing to do with the Lantern or Lanterns who was the focus of the Movie.
    Of course. If the reviews had been positive, yet Green Lantern still bombed, then maybe the absence of John might have been the problem. However, the reviews were on the negative side based on a variety of things having nothing to do with either Hal or John, so that's the reason why it didn't make a profit (that and a bloated budget, that is).
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  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Of course. If the reviews had been positive, yet Green Lantern still bombed, then maybe the absence of John might have been the problem. However, the reviews were on the negative side based on a variety of things having nothing to do with either Hal or John, so that's the reason why it didn't make a profit (that and a bloated budget, that is).
    I think some of the negative reviews had to do with Hal, but more specifically the film's depiction of him. He's really not a likeable protagonist.

    But the issue is, the vast majority of Hal's prior fans rejected it as well. So it's not some objective problem with Hal that some try to paint it as, just that he was adapted badly. It's no different than the unlikeable versions of Superman, Spider-Man and Batman we sometimes get. Meanwhile, GL:TAS and its take on Hal was well regarded while it was around. The movie having John in it wouldn't have magically made it better, as they may have found a way to screw him up in addition to the film's other problems.

    It's fair to want John or another GL in other media. But I think John (or a close approximation of him) is appearing in the CW-verse, isn't he? So that's a step in the right direction. But it unsurprisingly rankles Hal's fans when he's dismissed as unneeded but then his stuff gets farmed out to others who are supposedly better. Use other GLs, but let them stand on their own and not steal Hal's stuff to prop them up or use him badly if he's used at all. If they are better, let them prove it without stuff like Sinestro or Abin-Sur or Star Sapphire.

  7. #82
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think some of the negative reviews had to do with Hal, but more specifically the film's depiction of him. He's really not a likeable protagonist.

    But the issue is, the vast majority of Hal's prior fans rejected it as well. So it's not some objective problem with Hal that some try to paint it as, just that he was adapted badly. It's no different than the unlikeable versions of Superman, Spider-Man and Batman we sometimes get. Meanwhile, GL:TAS and its take on Hal was well regarded while it was around. The movie having John in it wouldn't have magically made it better, as they may have found a way to screw him up in addition to the film's other problems.

    It's fair to want John or another GL in other media. But I think John (or a close approximation of him) is appearing in the CW-verse, isn't he? So that's a step in the right direction. But it unsurprisingly rankles Hal's fans when he's dismissed as unneeded but then his stuff gets farmed out to others who are supposedly better. Use other GLs, but let them stand on their own and not steal Hal's stuff to prop them up or use him badly if he's used at all. If they are better, let them prove it without stuff like Sinestro or Abin-Sur or Star Sapphire.
    My view is, with the proper script, characterization, and direction, either Hal or John could shine as the star of a future GL film. Both characters are good enough to succeed, IMO.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    QFT. Fans and editorial alike are equally to blame (although for whatever reason, I tend to lay more blame on fans since many refuse to accept anything new).
    Fans have no control of the stories. Editors do.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    When it comes to Wally most casual viewers will probably not be able to tell the difference between him an Barry, they have the same powers and look pretty much the same in costume, and we don't really see much of him outside of the costume and outside of the Justice League.
    This is true. When New 52 happened and my friend asked who's The Flash, Wally or Barry, my first thought was "what's the difference?"

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Stephanie Brown and anal Jordan both got shafted by unpopular characterization choices... and both experienced a powerful rebirth when they just built back from that instead of starting over.
    Please never edit this. That is the best typo/autocorrect.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member El_Gato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And still, Harley is far more popular and mainstream than her. You are just proving my point that the movie hardly done much for her.

    There far more people who saw the Aquaman movie and he still didn't get as much push as WW got from DC (she already starring in animated series with the rest of DC heroines, btw). They already tried with WW but they didn't get satisfying results as solo brand.

    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them. NSM was a great book and DC tried to keep it afloat as hard as they can, but the sales were getting worse and worse until they simply give up.
    Lol what?!! In what reality is this even remotely true? Didnít Harleyís latest movie just massively underperform? Sheís not up there with Diana... sorry. Harley is popular of course
    Done with DC. Can't handle the constant whiplash! Time to go on a hiatus!

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    Lol what?!! In what reality is this even remotely true? Didn’t Harley’s latest movie just massively underperform? She’s not up there with Diana... sorry. Harley is popular of course
    NO. Agenda drive trolls want you to believe that. It is doing decent considering things and especially compared to another movie more that had the same budget yet was not attacked.


    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them. NSM was a great book and DC tried to keep it afloat as hard as they can, but the sales were getting worse and worse until they simply give up.
    How did DC do that? Volume actually sold very well with DC's support. Unlike Cyborg, it didn't go to ax levels until after volume 2. It last 3 volumes and is still doing fine as trades.

    QFT. Fans and editorial alike are equally to blame (although for whatever reason, I tend to lay more blame on fans since many refuse to accept anything new).
    It is the right of the fan to not accept badly done books. However some in the fandom expect EVERYONE to accept crap and refuse to accept LEGIT concerns.

    Cyborg, Black Panther & John Stewart fans have been told to ACCEPT crap. That they are not real fans because they won't buy certain books because they don't like how those characters are done. And shell out money to support badly done books.

    When they are doing what you are SUPPOSE to do-if you don't like it-don't buy it. You don't threaten the creative team or do some of the behavior we have seen.
    And yes I have seen the excuse of if you buy (blank) it might get (your favorite a shot). That LIE.



    But it unsurprisingly rankles Hal's fans when he's dismissed as unneeded but then his stuff gets farmed out to others who are supposedly better. Use other GLs, but let them stand on their own and not steal Hal's stuff to prop them up or use him badly if he's used at all.
    Green Lantern is a police force not Hal Jordan worship. They all have the same villains and that includes Sinestro. They can't steal anything from Hal.

    Once upon a time they did-Kyle, Guy, John and Alan had that. DC took that away from them and made it all about HAL. Then we got other books like Lafreeze, Sinestro, Red lanterns, White Lanterns & Jessica/Simon. Yet we are back at ground zero with Hal. Everyone else keeps getting stuff taken away and regressing. Hal does not.

    Since 2011 there have been 3 series starring Hal-GL, GL Earth One & Morrison's book as a SOLO. Then we get Justice League-where outside of comics he is showcases WAY more with Batman, Barry & Superman than Aquaman, WW and ESPECIALLY Cyborg. How is he dismissed as NOT needed?

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Green Lantern is a police force not Hal Jordan worship. They all have the same villains and that includes Sinestro. They can't steal anything from Hal.

    Once upon a time they did-Kyle, Guy, John and Alan had that. DC took that away from them and made it all about HAL. Then we got other books like Lafreeze, Sinestro, Red lanterns, White Lanterns & Jessica/Simon. Yet we are back at ground zero with Hal. Everyone else keeps getting stuff taken away and regressing. Hal does not.

    Since 2011 there have been 3 series starring Hal-GL, GL Earth One & Morrison's book as a SOLO. Then we get Justice League-where outside of comics he is showcases WAY more with Batman, Barry & Superman than Aquaman, WW and ESPECIALLY Cyborg. How is he dismissed as NOT needed?
    Go into any thread dedicated to debates on who is the best GL, and you will typically see Hal called out as the least interesting and that the franchise doesn't need him. It's more in places like this than it is one the corporate side, which does perhaps skew too much in the opposite direction. But of course it gets our hackles up when you say GOTG has 3 films and GL had one failed one because they went with Hal and nobody else. Which, I'm sorry, is a nonsense statement and REEKS of sour grapes/envy. Or saying it is proven that nobody likes him because GL:TAS got cancelled with not actual research as to why (toy sales, not lack of critical success or ratings). And you tend to bring up the "Hal worship" every chance you get.

    They all have the same broad mythos and enemies. But c'mon: Sinestro is primary Hal's. He debuted in Hal's stories, they've been pitted against each other in merchandise and in Superfriends, Sinestro was chosen to face Hal in Emerald Twilight, and they doubled down on it when they both came back at the same time. They can, and have stolen Sinestro from Hal. Look at the DCAU: why do you think brown haired Kyle Rayner got his ring from Abin Sur and fought Sinestro as his first opponent? I've heard his dynamic with John in Static Shock is more similar to his dynamic with Hal. The DCAU also pitted John against Carol as Star Sapphire, and it didn't mean much. Because her whole thing is with Hal, not him.

    His current series may be a solo. So what? That's not a valid objective criticism for a comic. Morrison is writing it specifically for Hal, utilizing his character and elements of his history. You would not get the same result with any other Lantern, and it's a unique, stand out series without the same corporate driven BS we are getting in most of the other books featuring the main heroes at DC. And of course, none of that affords it protection from being cut short for the next event schlock.

    Not much of lasting impact has come out of the Kyle era aside from giving a name to the much maligned "Women in Refrigerators" trope. John's greatest success was being in an ensemble show that didn't do much with the GL mythos and his main arc was with a character from another DC IP which doesn't even resemble the comics version. GL isn't always an ensemble piece, and when it is, Hal is usually still significant if not at the forefront. In the case of the Geoff Johns era, nobody could say him being the lead didn't work with a straight face. It's like complaining that Batman is the lead of the Bat-mythos or Superman is the lead of the Super mythos. They can just sustain more books where spin off characters can be the main focus of their own sub-stories. Which GL was able to do when Johns was writing.

  13. #88
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Green Lantern is a police force not Hal Jordan worship. They all have the same villains and that includes Sinestro. They can't steal anything from Hal.

    Once upon a time they did-Kyle, Guy, John and Alan had that. DC took that away from them and made it all about HAL. Then we got other books like Lafreeze, Sinestro, Red lanterns, White Lanterns & Jessica/Simon. Yet we are back at ground zero with Hal. Everyone else keeps getting stuff taken away and regressing. Hal does not.

    Since 2011 there have been 3 series starring Hal-GL, GL Earth One & Morrison's book as a SOLO. Then we get Justice League-where outside of comics he is showcases WAY more with Batman, Barry & Superman than Aquaman, WW and ESPECIALLY Cyborg. How is he dismissed as NOT needed?
    It has gone back to Hal because that is who writers (currently Grant Morrison) wants to write about. You can't force a writer to write about your favourite Green Lantern if they want to write stories about Hal. Hal gets attention because that is who writers (Like Johns and Morrison) wants to write about.

  14. #89
    Mighty Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    It has gone back to Hal because that is who writers (currently Grant Morrison) wants to write about. You can't force a writer to write about your favourite Green Lantern if they want to write stories about Hal. Hal gets attention because that is who writers (Like Johns and Morrison) wants to write about.
    Well, not exactly. It's Hal Jordan because editorial wants it to be Hal Jordan. Dan DiDio is the one who wanted to bring back Hal Jordan (when he became editor in chief, it was one of the first things he set in motion), and he is the one who approached Grant Morrison about writing Hal Jordan specifically. You can find all this in interviews.

    That's not to say the writers don't want to write that character (although, according to Morrison, he initially didn't when DiDio pitched it to him), but I don't think editorial would typically leave such an important decision as who the main Green Lantern book will star up to freelancers. Note, it was also editorial who commissioned Ron Marz and Darryl Banks with the creation of Kyle Rayner. Switching the lead was their idea. The freelancers were just hired to carry it out.

  15. #90
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Well, not exactly. It's Hal Jordan because editorial wants it to be Hal Jordan. Dan DiDio is the one who wanted to bring back Hal Jordan (when he became editor in chief, it was one of the first things he set in motion), and he is the one who approached Grant Morrison about writing Hal Jordan specifically. You can find all this in interviews.

    That's not to say the writers don't want to write that character (although, according to Morrison, he initially didn't when DiDio pitched it to him), but I don't think editorial would typically leave such an important decision as who the main Green Lantern book will star up to freelancers. Note, it was also editorial who commissioned Ron Marz and Darryl Banks with the creation of Kyle Rayner. Switching the lead was their idea. The freelancers were just hired to carry it out.
    It's also because the writers want to use Hal. Geoff Johns also wanted to bring Hal back and he has written the character the most. I doubt The Green Lantern would be about Hal if Grant Morrison really did not want to use him or had a story for Hal. And from interviews, it is also clear that Morrison has a story to tell and an angle to explore with Hal.
    Last edited by KC; 02-21-2020 at 12:43 AM.

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