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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    No, I don't mean they have to be the same. In fact, making it the same can be a detriment, like what I mention about Arrow and Green Arrow.

    I use them as an example of DC already investing by following what sells and what's popular, but not always doing it right.

    One of the right ways they do is by giving Harley an animated series or guest-starring in a series that appeals to casual but keeping her character so the more hardcore fans can enjoy, while at the same time, promote her in comics, even give her a black label reinterpretation, all because her merch sells to both hardcore or casual fans, and her character appeal to both.

    So they did it right by expanding but keeping elements of her character that's popular with both casual and hardcore fans.

    The Arrow vs Green Arrow, Lobdell's Teen Titans vs Young Justice, are examples of not doing it right. The Arrows because they're different, the young heroes because they gave it to a creator who, as his interview once said, wanna do his own thing instead of appealing to fans.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 02-16-2020 at 06:27 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I notice that DC/WB will invest hard on a character during the period where they give them money.
    Green Lantern family got a movie, TV series, and four ongoings at once during its height with Johns at the helm.
    Harley Quinn in the last few years
    Birds of Prey during this movie period
    Wonder Woman during her movie periods
    Batman Who Laughs this last year
    But all of them have been periods. After which it's back to usual, and when it's back to usual, they stop investing that hard. They have more confidence in these characters, that they will keep investing in them more than the others, but not as hard during their peak period.
    The longest-lasting period has been Batman, since the 80s, has its ups and downs, but when you have a character lasting this long, of course, they're gonna invest in his world harder than the others.

    I notice the exception is Green Arrow, though maybe because the Arrow series, I heard, is so different than the comic, that when they tried to synergize, it didn't work.
    Another exception is Titans, but DC's selective hearing when it comes to Dick Grayson's generation has been well known, and when it comes to Young Justice, they did invest in the group... by letting Scott Lobdell took the lead...

    So while DC often rightfully follow the money, they also throw in creators and concept without looking at what people like, what makes the content popular in the first place, and so you had the disparity between TV Young Justice, Lobdell's Titans, and just New 52 in general.

    As DC/WB is a big company, there's this... struggle between the money suits, the manager who pick the creators, the creators who know what they're doing and know what fans want, the creators who don't, and most of them are fanboys of different eras... so even though they want to invest, sometimes the manager picks the wrong creators.

    ...and when they flop, the blame game begins, whether towards the creator or the characters, and the decision makers will make new mistakes.
    They barely invest in Wonder Woman as is.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    How do you suggest for them to "invest" in WW? She already got an animated movie, mini series, she is starring in three books plus having a new au story every year. It's not like her movie made her as popular as the Arkham game did with Harley or anything related to her is selling like crazy.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
    – Dale Carnegie

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    How do you suggest for them to "invest" in WW? She already got an animated movie, mini series, she is starring in three books plus having a new au story every year. It's not like her movie made her as popular as the Arkham game did with Harley or anything related to her is selling like crazy.
    Far more people saw the Wonder Woman movie than played the Arkham games. As for the rest, the animated movie's advertising was practically non-existent and she still doesn't have an animated series. The new AUs are more recent as opposed to something that was far more common like with Batman or Superman.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I haven't really paid attention to Wonder Woman so what I know is the solicit surrounding her birthday and movie release is full of Wonder Woman books, whether a new interpretation or reprints.
    As for how much they invested or should invest, I can't say because I don't know their sales overall, or why do they invest in Harley more today in comparison to WW? Did they ever invest in Harley this hard in the 90s during her BTAS popularity?

  6. #21
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    And still, Harley is far more popular and mainstream than her. You are just proving my point that the movie hardly done much for her.

    There far more people who saw the Aquaman movie and he still didn't get as much push as WW got from DC (she already starring in animated series with the rest of DC heroines, btw). They already tried with WW but they didn't get satisfying results as solo brand.

    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them. NSM was a great book and DC tried to keep it afloat as hard as they can, but the sales were getting worse and worse until they simply give up.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And still, Harley is far more popular and mainstream than her. You are just proving my point that the movie hardly done much for her.

    There far more people who saw the Aquaman movie and he still didn't get as much push as WW got from DC (she already starring in animated series with the rest of DC heroines, btw). They already tried with WW but they didn't get satisfying results as solo brand.

    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them. NSM was a great book and DC tried to keep it afloat as hard as they can, but the sales were getting worse and worse until they simply give up.
    This.

    Seems to be enough people with a masterplan but that masterplan never seems to involve hand in pocket

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    The Arrow vs Green Arrow, Lobdell's Teen Titans vs Young Justice, are examples of not doing it right. The Arrows because they're different, the young heroes because they gave it to a creator who, as his interview once said, wanna do his own thing instead of appealing to fans.
    I want creators who does their own thing!

    The trouble with "appealing to fans" as a guideline is that you will only reach the same people over and over again, and seldom manage to tell something new. That's why you need creators who are willing to do their own thing and be different, and the editors are there to improve the stories.

    That's why DC Ink has been so successful, because they get new creators willing to take a new look at classic characters. Or why Stjepan Sejic's Harleen manages to be both extremely true to the character while at the same time putting her in a new light.

    As for the investments, DC didn't do that much with Wonder Woman when the 2017 movie first hit. They were simply unprepared. I think they are still figuring out how to best manage how to best take advantage of the increased visibility of a character when a movie hits.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Tbf its more "The bat fam gets to stick around because any Bat item can be monetised and sold easier then any other DC character because DC focus on Batman leading to a self perpetuating issue"
    To be really fair, the Bat-family is an easy concept to sell: acrobatic, martial artists with gadgets. No need to explain the origin of powers, the background in Greek Mythology or the allergy to space rocks.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And still, Harley is far more popular and mainstream than her.
    Citation needed. People keep saying this without any real proof to back it up.


    You are just proving my point that the movie hardly done much for her.
    A movie is supposed to just magically give her a better creative team for the comics, good advertizing for her animated movie or an animated series? These things take actual work.

    There far more people who saw the Aquaman movie and he still didn't get as much push as WW got from DC
    Aquaman has an upcoming animated series and even before the movie he had spin off books.

    (she already starring in animated series with the rest of DC heroines, btw).
    So are Supergirl and Harley. It doesn't prevent them from having their own solo stuff.

    They already tried with WW but they didn't get satisfying results as solo brand.
    Because they either didn't try, didn't advertise it well or it was poorly executed.

    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them.
    See above.

  11. #26
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And still, Harley is far more popular and mainstream than her. You are just proving my point that the movie hardly done much for her.

    There far more people who saw the Aquaman movie and he still didn't get as much push as WW got from DC (she already starring in animated series with the rest of DC heroines, btw). They already tried with WW but they didn't get satisfying results as solo brand.

    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them. NSM was a great book and DC tried to keep it afloat as hard as they can, but the sales were getting worse and worse until they simply give up.
    These people are the minority of the comic book community so of course sales are low.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    It's like people who screams about diversity and wanting new characters, but they don't bother to support them. NSM was a great book and DC tried to keep it afloat as hard as they can, but the sales were getting worse and worse until they simply give up.
    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    This.

    Seems to be enough people with a masterplan but that masterplan never seems to involve hand in pocket
    This is, unfortunately, true.

    I've tried many, many times to support diversity...only for the comics to fizzle and leave me disappointed again. At the same time, Batman was having another excellent run and an line-wide event.

    I found it discouraging. I am sure others did too.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    ....
    You can be as cautious as you want because there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise and I'm not going to repeat myself like a broken record.

    And one last thing, "better creative team" is quite the subjective matter. What you consider to be good, others don't (like the whole Azzarello vs Rucka thing in WW fanbase for example).
    Last edited by Rise; 02-16-2020 at 08:34 AM.
    “Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain but it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”
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  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I want creators who does their own thing!

    The trouble with "appealing to fans" as a guideline is that you will only reach the same people over and over again, and seldom manage to tell something new. That's why you need creators who are willing to do their own thing and be different, and the editors are there to improve the stories.

    That's why DC Ink has been so successful because they get new creators willing to take a new look at classic characters. Or why Stjepan Sejic's Harleen manages to be both extremely true to the character while at the same time putting her in a new light.

    As for the investments, DC didn't do that much with Wonder Woman when the 2017 movie first hit. They were simply unprepared. I think they are still figuring out how to best manage how to best take advantage of the increased visibility of a character when a movie hits.
    Being true to character is part of appealing to fans, and I think the most important because that's what people remember from long time characters. They may forget story details but people will remember voice, mannerism, moral alignment, iconic moments...

    Changing things is always a gamble since comic fans are notoriously resistant to change. These are the people who consistently buy comics and that's why DC always needs them. So it's safer as a business to do it in out of continuity stories, and then maybe apply some elements of it to the main continuity if it's extremely well-received.

    Doing it directly in continuity, and ignoring why people like the characters in the first place, as in, not being true to character, is why Lobdell's Titans and Meredith Finch's Donna Troy were so rejected.

    ...What's the successful example of being true to character but doing something different in continuity? Does Morrison's Batman reintroduce Silver Age elements plus Damian during the time where Batfamily history was steeped in the 90s Dixon count? or Geoff Johns expanding Lantern family? Jurgen's Superfamily?
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 02-16-2020 at 09:21 AM.

  15. #30
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    Do not forget the introductions to both Duke and Harper into the Batman Mythos as if the Batman needs more sidekicks than ever...

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