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  1. #1
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    Default Shouldn't AI Rights have been settled by now in the Marvel U?

    With the events in the IM2020 stuff and even going back to the AI Avengers we have seen racial tensions between organics and mechs/AIs. But considering how long artificial life has been around shouldn't sentient rights have been established by now? Jim Hammond has been around since 1939 and fought in a war. Vision and Jocasta have been Avengers and Vision actually was legally married. With the number of AIs running around you would think that at least one of them would have gone to court or some such to be recognized as sentient and have all their rights affirmed and respected.

  2. #2
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    They haven't settled mutant rights, or really dealt with the legal status of Inhumans or Atlanteans, let alone Deviants, Eternals, etc. so I don't think the UN in the Marvel Universe is all that up on this stuff.

    Especially when dealing with the, like three or four 'machine people' out there. Quick Jocasta, Vision, Jim Hammond and Machine Man, use your vast lobbying arm to get Congress to legislate on this pressing issue that affect almost exactly 0.00000000000001% of their constituency!

    I blame the Latverian ambassador for constantly spoiling the votes.

    Seriously though, as of the eighties, when the US govt kidnapped and mind-wiped the Vision, it seems like 'machines don't have rights' is the rule. If Wanda and Vision are 'legally' married, it might have been a one-off thing, officiated by an especially open-minded clergyman or city official, and not something that the federal government ever really saw fit to either recognize or dispute (and since it ended without any sort of legal divorce, it seems that the official response of 'ignore it until it goes away' was the economically sensible choice).

    There was no political benefit to either recognizing, or standing opposed to, this, until now, so I suppose it makes sense, in a world full of gods, aliens, mutants, etc. to let those half-dozen robot-people just do their thing. Now that there is an actual movement, there will be more of a call to do something about it, and, no doubt, some people asking this very question, 'why wasn't anything done until NOW?'

    Plus, someone somewhere probably thought, "Do we want to kick this hornet's nest, and possibly give *Ultron* 'human rights?' Or do we prefer a world where his legal status is 'blow his genocidal toaster ass up.'"
    Last edited by Sutekh; 02-15-2020 at 08:09 PM.

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    They haven't settled mutant rights, or really dealt with the legal status of Inhumans or Atlanteans, let alone Deviants, Eternals, etc. so I don't think the UN in the Marvel Universe is all that up on this stuff.

    Especially when dealing with the, like three or four 'machine people' out there. Quick Jocasta, Vision, Jim Hammond and Machine Man, use your vast lobbying arm to get Congress to legislate on this pressing issue that affect almost exactly 0.00000000000001% of their constituency!

    I blame the Latverian ambassador for constantly spoiling the votes.

    Seriously though, as of the eighties, when the US govt kidnapped and mind-wiped the Vision, it seems like 'machines don't have rights' is the rule. If Wanda and Vision are 'legally' married, it might have been a one-off thing, officiated by an especially open-minded clergyman or city official, and not something that the federal government ever really saw fit to either recognize or dispute (and since it ended without any sort of legal divorce, it seems that the official response of 'ignore it until it goes away' was the economically sensible choice).

    There was no political benefit to either recognizing, or standing opposed to, this, until now, so I suppose it makes sense, in a world full of gods, aliens, mutants, etc. to let those half-dozen robot-people just do their thing. Now that there is an actual movement, there will be more of a call to do something about it, and, no doubt, some people asking this very question, 'why wasn't anything done until NOW?'
    All of this.

    And also we still don't actually have equal rights for women yet. Women! Half the population have fewer legal rights (it's true, look it up, or watch "On the basis of sex" which is a great film and touches on the subject and will be more entertaining than a Google search) than the rest of us, so why should we expect better for AI?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    They haven't settled mutant rights, or really dealt with the legal status of Inhumans or Atlanteans, let alone Deviants, Eternals, etc. so I don't think the UN in the Marvel Universe is all that up on this stuff.

    Especially when dealing with the, like three or four 'machine people' out there. Quick Jocasta, Vision, Jim Hammond and Machine Man, use your vast lobbying arm to get Congress to legislate on this pressing issue that affect almost exactly 0.00000000000001% of their constituency!

    I blame the Latverian ambassador for constantly spoiling the votes.

    Seriously though, as of the eighties, when the US govt kidnapped and mind-wiped the Vision, it seems like 'machines don't have rights' is the rule. If Wanda and Vision are 'legally' married, it might have been a one-off thing, officiated by an especially open-minded clergyman or city official, and not something that the federal government ever really saw fit to either recognize or dispute (and since it ended without any sort of legal divorce, it seems that the official response of 'ignore it until it goes away' was the economically sensible choice).

    There was no political benefit to either recognizing, or standing opposed to, this, until now, so I suppose it makes sense, in a world full of gods, aliens, mutants, etc. to let those half-dozen robot-people just do their thing. Now that there is an actual movement, there will be more of a call to do something about it, and, no doubt, some people asking this very question, 'why wasn't anything done until NOW?'

    Plus, someone somewhere probably thought, "Do we want to kick this hornet's nest, and possibly give *Ultron* 'human rights?' Or do we prefer a world where his legal status is 'blow his genocidal toaster ass up.'"
    That's something I posted about in the X-Men forums...'where are the lawsuits?' Where is the mutant who was discriminated against and took it to court?? Benjamin Deeds was kicked out of college for being a mutant ...and joins Cyclops's team of X-Men. Perfect opportunity to lawyer up and fight for mutant rights in court and they just say..."no...let's have him join a group of mutant outlaws."

    That is what I want to see...real world solutions to mutant/AI/superhuman issues.

  5. #5

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    Vision and Scarlet Witch are not legally married. They were married by Immortus. He may be the lord of Limbo and watcher of the timestream, but he has no legal authority to conduct any wedding.

  6. #6
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    At a wager the legal ambiguity of AI probably has something to do with various government and private figures perpetually trying to construct armies of hot pink murderbots that are invariably either defeated or turn on humanity

    Because shockingly an armchair anthropologist with too much money is bad at programming

  7. #7
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    If you're talking about maybe half a dozen robot/androids tops, most of which happen to be buddies with Steve Rogers and/or Tony Stark, it's easier to just allow them specifically to get whatever perks they and their high powered buddies want rather than create legislature dealing with all AI as a whole. And those perks can clearly be taken away when needed, as the government did kidnap and dissect Vision in Byrnes West Coast Avengers run. They still treated him like a toaster when it was convenient to do so... and if they're going to do that with Vision, really no AI is likely going to get better treatment at least in the near future.

    As long as guys like Vision and Hammond on a case by case basis are treated as well as they need to be treated, no one will complain enough for anything more that needs to be done.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    At a wager the legal ambiguity of AI probably has something to do with various government and private figures perpetually trying to construct armies of hot pink murderbots that are invariably either defeated or turn on humanity

    Because shockingly an armchair anthropologist with too much money is bad at programming
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If you're talking about maybe half a dozen robot/androids tops, most of which happen to be buddies with Steve Rogers and/or Tony Stark, it's easier to just allow them specifically to get whatever perks they and their high powered buddies want rather than create legislature dealing with all AI as a whole. And those perks can clearly be taken away when needed, as the government did kidnap and dissect Vision in Byrnes West Coast Avengers run. They still treated him like a toaster when it was convenient to do so... and if they're going to do that with Vision, really no AI is likely going to get better treatment at least in the near future.

    As long as guys like Vision and Hammond on a case by case basis are treated as well as they need to be treated, no one will complain enough for anything more that needs to be done.

    There is a difference between most sentinels who are basically a programmed machine (if this...then this...) and the Vision and Torch who can actually think and are aware of their actions.

    And there are more than half a dozen. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Robots

    I am not saying that every bot out there should be automatically declared sentient and be treated as citizens with rights....but on a case by case basis there should be tests and a review to determine if a bot meets the criteria for sentience.

    Look at Star Trek...in 2 cases they had episodes for the rights of artificial intelligence. In TNG it was whether or not Date was property of Starfleet and could be dismantled for study and on VOY it was about The Doctor's rights to his intellectual property.

    Back to my original point...an AI like Hammond, Vision, etc...could submit to this process and be determined to be sentient and be treated as a person and not an object. An AI that breaks the law could put thru the process and determined to be entitled to a trial instead of just being destroyed as an object.

    It could be a story that is a single issue or a subplot that runs thru several. Viv Vision is in contact online with Tara/Invader-1 and learns that after the .gov finishes their diagnostics on her that they are going to decommission and dismantle her. She tells her dad and they engage the services of Jennifer Walters to fight for her rights in court. I know people don't find 'court case stories' all the fun...but if written right it could be interesting.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 02-16-2020 at 08:29 AM.

  9. #9
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    And I just remembered the SHIELD LMDs, and that whole Delta's fiasco. Seems like there's a fair number of powerful politically connected sorts (such as Nick friggin' Fury) who are strongly motivated for there *NOT* to be any sorts of rights for machine-people, so that they can continue to use them as disposable LMD minions...

    They get rights, and he can't just blow them up when they get uppity (or deliberately, as part of a mission, or use them to stand in for people at risk of assassination, etc.), and he has to pay them, and then there's the HR complaints, and does health insurance cover basic maintenance, and on what line of your food per diem goes 'need uranium pellets for my reactor?' It's a whole can of worms.

  10. #10
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    So they're supposed to have settled AI rights when they haven't settled mutant rights and we haven't settled civil rights? Ok.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    So they're supposed to have settled AI rights when they haven't settled mutant rights and we haven't settled civil rights? Ok.
    IRL there have been multiple court cases helping to establish laws against discrimination based on gender, race, sexual orientation, genetics (which could play into an in-universe story on mutant rights), etc...but that does not mean it was an overnight change to people's beliefs.

    After Brown v Board of Education...the National Guard had to be brought in to protect the students.

    I am not talking about an in-universe overnight change to the discrimination and worse that non-baseline humans, AI, etc...are going thru...but that it shows there are legal protections being established for them.

    It would be no different than Wither being put on trial for his father's death or Matt Murdock fighting for super heroes to testify in court without revealing their secret IDs.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 02-16-2020 at 12:52 PM.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    That's something I posted about in the X-Men forums...'where are the lawsuits?' Where is the mutant who was discriminated against and took it to court?? Benjamin Deeds was kicked out of college for being a mutant ...and joins Cyclops's team of X-Men. Perfect opportunity to lawyer up and fight for mutant rights in court and they just say..."no...let's have him join a group of mutant outlaws."

    That is what I want to see...real world solutions to mutant/AI/superhuman issues.
    Furthermore...where are the mutants that are tolerated or even loved by humanity? Every hated minority group has some people that manage to break through.

    Yet mutants never have that.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Furthermore...where are the mutants that are tolerated or even loved by humanity? Every hated minority group has some people that manage to break through.

    Yet mutants never have that.
    Yeah, where's our mutant Elton?

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  15. #15
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    Marvel's AI population has only recently sky-rocketed tho. lol
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