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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Default The whole Kylo Ren/Rey connection was a swing/miss

    I don't know why did they try to connect the two so tightly, they share so little in common other than being force users.

    Kylo Ren's conflict has to do with Luke and his parents, Rey has to do with Palpatine. So it was completely different. And both of their conflict was missed. Especially Rey with Palpatine, that's one of the weakest part of ST. Even PT did a much better job on Anakin and Palpatine.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It is kind of weird the grandchildren of both of the Empire's Sith lords both brought an end to the saga..


    Although I suppose there's some historical precedent. Certain dynasties sometimes undid or rebuked the actions of their ancestors.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 02-18-2020 at 01:36 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Both are descendants of the two final reigning Sith (Vader and Sidious). Rey's parents are nobodies but her grandfather wasn't which is juxtaposed against Ben's parents being heroes in the OT. Rey is born into nothing with Ben being essentially royalty. Rey lacked her parents and Ben's had been afraid of him sending him away. Both are sent far away to protect them be it Rey from Palpatine finding her and Ben learning to be a Jedi to protect him from himself.

    They both start from roughly the same place and for the most part balance each other out both on a narrative level and on a spiritual level from being on the opposite sides of the conflicts and aspects of the force.

    TROS is the weakest part of the sequels to me but I wont deny I got Kylo Ren and Rey.
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  4. #4
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Both are descendants of the two final reigning Sith (Vader and Sidious).


    Rey's parents are nobodies but her grandfather wasn't which is juxtaposed against Ben's parents being heroes in the OT.
    That means nothing because neither had any influence on them,

    Rey is born into nothing with Ben being essentially royalty. Rey lacked her parents and Ben's had been afraid of him sending him away. Both are sent far away to protect them be it Rey from Palpatine finding her and Ben learning to be a Jedi to protect him from himself.
    Yeah thus they got little similarity or connection


    They both start from roughly the same place and for the most part balance each other out both on a narrative level and on a spiritual level from being on the opposite sides of the conflicts and aspects of the force.
    No, Kylo Ren started as the child of great heroes and Rey started as nobody, Rey actually had much more similarity with Luke. They had nothing in common, even less than Vader and Luke in ANH. Vader and Luke got together because they are father and son, their action were directly connected. It has non in Kylo Ren and Rey.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Pretty sure Vader definetly had some influence on Ben. Not living influence, but it's obvious he patterned himself after him (and possibly thought he heard Vader's force ghost, as TFA and ROS both implied).
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  6. #6
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Pretty sure Vader definetly had some influence on Ben. Not living influence, but it's obvious he patterned himself after him (and possibly thought he heard Vader's force ghost, as TFA and ROS both implied).
    That actually makes no sense because Vader redeemed himself in the end, admitted all his mistakes. If there is trouble he could speak with his grandson as Anakin Skywalker.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I meant Palpatine impersonating Vader (I should have made that clear) "I have been every voice inside your head". The real Anakin of course talked to Rey at the end.
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  8. #8
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I meant Palpatine impersonating Vader (I should have made that clear) "I have been every voice inside your head". The real Anakin of course talked to Rey at the end.
    Then he should be able to speak to his grandson about it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    That actually makes no sense because Vader redeemed himself in the end, admitted all his mistakes. If there is trouble he could speak with his grandson as Anakin Skywalker.
    Ben either didn't know that or didn't care and either way had Palpatine speaking to him as Vader. So as far as Ben knew at the time, Vader was telling him it was all bullshit.

    The dark-side in the Prequels also establishes that the Sith corrupt the heroes ability to cut through the bullshit with the force, and it actually requires some effort on their parts to connect with the ghosts. They don't just pop up as even Qui-gon showed up during the Clone Wars and nobody had any idea what Yoda was on about. Outside of planets strong in the force or very powerful individuals it does require some effort. A blatant example of this is Endor since as far as anybody at the party knew, Luke was smiling at a wooden fence instead of three Jedi.
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  10. #10
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    “Swing and a miss” is a charitable description for what wound up on screen, in my opinion. “Cancerous” or “corrosive” feels more accurate to me.

    Not to the idea as a concept, mind you.

    I firmly believe that competent writing could take a Rey and Kylo love story, or even just tight connection, through all three films if that was the plan, or maybe just TLJ and TROS if it worked really hard.

    But what wound up screen was a giant piece of crap that ate away at Rey’s character, was for all intents and purposes an abusive relationship, and ultimately the one thing which I don’t think I’ll ever let anyone proclaim as enjoyable in the ST without objecting and mocking the concept in a way meant to remove their enjoyment of it.

    Yeah. I can try not to be that guy on Luke’s story, Palpatine's return, the absolute waste of Finn, and everything else... except for this pile of hypocritical garbage at the rotten heart of this trilogy.

    It didn’t have to be that bad... But let’s break it down:

    TFA plants absolutely nothing goo between Rey and Kylo - absolutely everything in their interactions is antagonistic, vile, and cruel on Kylo’s part, and justifiably enraged and fearful on Rey’s part. Kylo is very clearly the monster stalking Rey, kidnapping her, torturing her, and violating her mind in a scene that very clearly is going for disturbing sexual assault tones. And that’s before Kylo kills Han, Rey’s friend, potential father figure, and a personification fo his vastly different Kylo’s mind is compared to her - he’s basically an alien she can’t understand for killing the one thing she wants most in the world - and then maiming her best friend and found family member Finn for daring to protect her.

    There ain’t any Rey and Kylo love story or friendship story in TFA, full stop... which might be informative when you remember it was by far the most successful ST movie.

    TLJ is kind of weird. I’m fairly certain that Rian Johnson intended for his film to end in a way deconstructing or ending the chance of Reylo for good... but only because he saw it as a genuine possibility after TFA, somehow, and he casually treated it as a near thing when, after TFA, it couldn’t possibly be a likelihood for as lazily as he wrote it. Rey’s spine, mind, emotional investment in people not named Kylo, and her general characterization in TFA was all thrown out, either because Johnson just didn’t connect to it in TFA (which remember, he first experienced as a script and dailies, not as a finished film), or he struggled writing female characters who were of the more assertive action-girl variety.

    There’s no attempt made to really tackle the totality of all the horrible things Kylo did to Rey in TFA to help explain Rey suddenly getting sympathetic towards him - the *inky* thing referenced is Han’s death, where Rey is portrayed as for some reason accepting Kylo’s blatant and sociopathic-sounding dodge as acceptable. We never address wha5 he did to her, Finn, Luke’s students or the Galaxy... and it seems likely this is because Johnson had trouble seeing Kylo for the blatant scum he was after TFA. Johnson’s the guy who told John Williams to replace the initially dark and threatening music he out in their hand touch seem with a more sweet and romantic one - because somehow Johnson didn’t see why Rey could hold a grudge, be afraid of her assaulted, or simply be as wary as a survivor from a horrible planet would be towards a clearly deranged fascist murder. So even though Johnson ended the film in a way meant to probably end the relationship, by both making it clear he submitted Tey to Snoke’s torture for his own benefit than had her close the door on him... the way he treated it as a strong possibility against all logic and emotional sincerity for Rey planted the seeds for TROS to basically finish her character off with it.

    TROS is an absolute mess here, and shows how the relationship ultimately damaged Rey as a hero and Kylo as a villain... and I’m inclined to think that TROS is largely the result of Kathleen Kennedy and LFL wanting to build on what they thought the most positively received TLJ elements were, even though Johnson seemed to be intending the opposite reaction - they wanted Ben redeemed (thus they were down with Palpatine coming back after other attempts didn’t seems torn enough to them with Supreme Leader Kylo), and they wanted Rey to give a damn about Ben (even though she didn’t know him in any way, and Kylo was, y’know, her twice abusive captor and friend-killer).

    So what do you get? A film where Kylo can continue to be an utterly terrible person in every way, but can’t seem to get Rey to really treat him with anything more than disappointed frustration until he tries killing her again... at which point she hits him while defending herself but freaks out over hurting him and insta-heals him to keep him from dying... when he’s still Kylo Ren. And still near her friends and allies. And all because Ben Solo is a character LFL over-invested in at Rey, Finn, the ST’s conflict, and the OT3’s expense. We than have Rey’s climactic confrontation with Palpatine, a villain almost certainly brought back so that Kylo wouldn’t be the main villain (as per Chris Terio), get interrupted and knee-capped by vacillating and inconsistent motivations and exposition, just so Ben can show up and act as Palaptine’s battery with Rey, then have Rey get Sleeping Beauty-ed for no good reason just so she’ll kiss this character she’d shared no dialogue with that wasn’t as his abusive and evil persona.

    I’ll be blunt, this “Reylo” story stinks of being written by people either ignorant of or apathetic towards how a real human being would react towards Kylo, or people showing some benign racism and sexism in their favoritism towards a character because he’s a white male, and thus more appealing than a female hero or a black male lead.
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  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    I didn't think the Rey/Kylo thing worked in TROS at all, but I still liked the movie. Shame that didn't work better (for me and others), but it is what it is.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Then he should be able to speak to his grandson about it.
    Current canon suggests Qui-Gon could communicate with Yoda but it took a long time for him to unbind from the Force. Yoda and Obi could communicate as ghosts for longer periods of time and Anakin had a hard time after Jakku. Jury is out on Luke but all indications point towards him being like Yoda, a super powerful Force Ghost. I would guess Leia will be like her son, a short lived ghost.

    Ben/Kylo we don't know about yet other than he got a honorable Force death.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 02-19-2020 at 10:36 AM.
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Yeah the force ghosts are a bit inconsistent. Luke doesn't technically see Obi-Wan until ESB that we know of, only hears him. Qui-Gon doesn't vanish like the others but somehow is the "first" ghost.

    In ESB Obi-Wan is fixed in one place pretty much, but in ROTJ he's moving around and sitting on logs (same with Yoda at the end) and in TLJ and ROS we see they can still use the force in the physical realm.


    Also for some reason Obi-Wan couldn't interfere in the ESB duel, although given what we saw in the sequel trilogy he possibly could've and helped Luke out. Then again there's the weird ROTJ script where Obi-Wan actually does come back to life along with Yoda....
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  14. #14
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Yeah the force ghosts are a bit inconsistent. Luke doesn't technically see Obi-Wan until ESB that we know of, only hears him. Qui-Gon doesn't vanish like the others but somehow is the "first" ghost.

    In ESB Obi-Wan is fixed in one place pretty much, but in ROTJ he's moving around and sitting on logs (same with Yoda at the end) and in TLJ and ROS we see they can still use the force in the physical realm.


    Also for some reason Obi-Wan couldn't interfere in the ESB duel, although given what we saw in the sequel trilogy he possibly could've and helped Luke out. Then again there's the weird ROTJ script where Obi-Wan actually does come back to life along with Yoda....
    I think Yoda and Luke being the only ghosts that can do stuff make the most sense.

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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Yeah the force ghosts are a bit inconsistent. Luke doesn't technically see Obi-Wan until ESB that we know of, only hears him. Qui-Gon doesn't vanish like the others but somehow is the "first" ghost.

    In ESB Obi-Wan is fixed in one place pretty much, but in ROTJ he's moving around and sitting on logs (same with Yoda at the end) and in TLJ and ROS we see they can still use the force in the physical realm.


    Also for some reason Obi-Wan couldn't interfere in the ESB duel, although given what we saw in the sequel trilogy he possibly could've and helped Luke out. Then again there's the weird ROTJ script where Obi-Wan actually does come back to life along with Yoda....
    The whole non-interference things always kind of bothered me when Yoda summoned lightning. If Force Ghost can do that then why can't they interfere? Why not have Luke decide to get off his undead backside and do something. I know some might mock that as fan service to which I have one question. Why is fan service considered bad. The way critics rail on it you would think there's some unwritten law against it.

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