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  1. #16
    iMan 42s
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    The whole non-interference things always kind of bothered me when Yoda summoned lightning. If Force Ghost can do that then why can't they interfere? Why not have Luke decide to get off his undead backside and do something. I know some might mock that as fan service to which I have one question. Why is fan service considered bad. The way critics rail on it you would think there's some unwritten law against it.
    Didn't a bunch of dead Jedi cameo in TROS? They're voices but they do show up to power up Rey.
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  2. #17
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    The whole connection only had one payoff moment for me- when Ben pulled the lightsaber out from behind his back and gave a small bow to the knights of Ren. Other than that- it was mostly MEH for me.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    The whole connection only had one payoff moment for me- when Ben pulled the lightsaber out from behind his back and gave a small bow to the knights of Ren. Other than that- it was mostly MEH for me.
    That was a good beat, but I'm not sure it was worth it. That's kinda the thing with that whole story arc for me; the scenes by themselves were well-done, but the overall plot didn't work because the previous two movies had not set up redemption (IMHO), so I didn't really believe it.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    The whole connection only had one payoff moment for me- when Ben pulled the lightsaber out from behind his back and gave a small bow to the knights of Ren. Other than that- it was mostly MEH for me.
    To me, that's a well acted scene, but it depends on the premise that we should treat Ben as a totally different character than Kylo, and shouldn't take his time as Kylo into account for what his personality should be - it's basically LFL showing the character concept that Kathleen Kennedy actually wanted as the central male lead of the ST (Adam Driver playing a heroically roguish son of Han Solo) instead of what they actually had (Adam Driver playing a monster for three films even as they promoted him to male lead in their "for your consideration" letters, or John Boyega hired for the male lead role and playing someone who is inconveniently far more developed in one single film than their single psychopathic Skywalker grandkid across three films).

    I'm exaggerating there quite bit in terms of what they wanted Ben Solo to be, but not by as much as I should be:

    - Adam Driver was the actor Kennedy was pushing for the entire time during TFA's production as Han's kid, while John Boyega as Finn was someone Abrams had to push for repeatedly to get cast.
    - Rian Johnson apparently wrote his entire first TLJ script with very little Finn without comment from LFL until TFA came out, at which point they asked for more Finn... and were apparently satisfied with the piddly and stupid plot Johnson gave Finn and totally believed that Driver's performance as Kylo was adequate to make Rey act as inhumanly stupid as she did with so little depth in the script to really have thta make sense.
    - Even before IX was taken from Trevorrow and given to Abrams, and thus even before TLJ was released, LFL was already pushing for Ben Solo's redemption to happen and for someone else to be the main villain; they really believed that Ben Solo *had* to be redeemed even thought hat arguably worked against Rian Johnson's point at the end of TLJ, and that it would be so much easier if he had a bigger villain to fight.
    - That same reasoning is why they were so on-board with Palpatine's return and the fanfiction-level ide aof a Force Dyad, and probably the reason why there's so many convolutions, expositions, and sudden changes in Palpatine's plans in the final throne room scene; Abrams is trying to follow LFL's directives that push for Ben Solo mattering in the final confrontation, and delivers some reason for the kiss, but he knows he needs Kylo to be a villain for most of the film and that there's really not much justification for the kiss from a character standpoint.

    Kylo is a character benefiting form the privilege of producer favoritism... and maybe a bit of white male privilege as well, since it seems kind of odd that the mass murdering fascist is still regarded as a more natural romantic interest for the female character he tortured than her black best friend, and since they seem to feel he needed to get kissed even though he doesn't share a single line of dialogue with her after his redemption and before his death.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Didn't Jesse Plemons read for Kylo?
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    “Swing and a miss” is a charitable description for what wound up on screen, in my opinion. “Cancerous” or “corrosive” feels more accurate to me.

    Not to the idea as a concept, mind you.

    I firmly believe that competent writing could take a Rey and Kylo love story, or even just tight connection, through all three films if that was the plan, or maybe just TLJ and TROS if it worked really hard.

    But what wound up screen was a giant piece of crap that ate away at Rey’s character, was for all intents and purposes an abusive relationship, and ultimately the one thing which I don’t think I’ll ever let anyone proclaim as enjoyable in the ST without objecting and mocking the concept in a way meant to remove their enjoyment of it.

    Yeah. I can try not to be that guy on Luke’s story, Palpatine's return, the absolute waste of Finn, and everything else... except for this pile of hypocritical garbage at the rotten heart of this trilogy.

    It didn’t have to be that bad... But let’s break it down:

    TFA plants absolutely nothing goo between Rey and Kylo - absolutely everything in their interactions is antagonistic, vile, and cruel on Kylo’s part, and justifiably enraged and fearful on Rey’s part. Kylo is very clearly the monster stalking Rey, kidnapping her, torturing her, and violating her mind in a scene that very clearly is going for disturbing sexual assault tones. And that’s before Kylo kills Han, Rey’s friend, potential father figure, and a personification fo his vastly different Kylo’s mind is compared to her - he’s basically an alien she can’t understand for killing the one thing she wants most in the world - and then maiming her best friend and found family member Finn for daring to protect her.

    There ain’t any Rey and Kylo love story or friendship story in TFA, full stop... which might be informative when you remember it was by far the most successful ST movie.

    TLJ is kind of weird. I’m fairly certain that Rian Johnson intended for his film to end in a way deconstructing or ending the chance of Reylo for good... but only because he saw it as a genuine possibility after TFA, somehow, and he casually treated it as a near thing when, after TFA, it couldn’t possibly be a likelihood for as lazily as he wrote it. Rey’s spine, mind, emotional investment in people not named Kylo, and her general characterization in TFA was all thrown out, either because Johnson just didn’t connect to it in TFA (which remember, he first experienced as a script and dailies, not as a finished film), or he struggled writing female characters who were of the more assertive action-girl variety.

    There’s no attempt made to really tackle the totality of all the horrible things Kylo did to Rey in TFA to help explain Rey suddenly getting sympathetic towards him - the *inky* thing referenced is Han’s death, where Rey is portrayed as for some reason accepting Kylo’s blatant and sociopathic-sounding dodge as acceptable. We never address wha5 he did to her, Finn, Luke’s students or the Galaxy... and it seems likely this is because Johnson had trouble seeing Kylo for the blatant scum he was after TFA. Johnson’s the guy who told John Williams to replace the initially dark and threatening music he out in their hand touch seem with a more sweet and romantic one - because somehow Johnson didn’t see why Rey could hold a grudge, be afraid of her assaulted, or simply be as wary as a survivor from a horrible planet would be towards a clearly deranged fascist murder. So even though Johnson ended the film in a way meant to probably end the relationship, by both making it clear he submitted Tey to Snoke’s torture for his own benefit than had her close the door on him... the way he treated it as a strong possibility against all logic and emotional sincerity for Rey planted the seeds for TROS to basically finish her character off with it.

    TROS is an absolute mess here, and shows how the relationship ultimately damaged Rey as a hero and Kylo as a villain... and I’m inclined to think that TROS is largely the result of Kathleen Kennedy and LFL wanting to build on what they thought the most positively received TLJ elements were, even though Johnson seemed to be intending the opposite reaction - they wanted Ben redeemed (thus they were down with Palpatine coming back after other attempts didn’t seems torn enough to them with Supreme Leader Kylo), and they wanted Rey to give a damn about Ben (even though she didn’t know him in any way, and Kylo was, y’know, her twice abusive captor and friend-killer).

    So what do you get? A film where Kylo can continue to be an utterly terrible person in every way, but can’t seem to get Rey to really treat him with anything more than disappointed frustration until he tries killing her again... at which point she hits him while defending herself but freaks out over hurting him and insta-heals him to keep him from dying... when he’s still Kylo Ren. And still near her friends and allies. And all because Ben Solo is a character LFL over-invested in at Rey, Finn, the ST’s conflict, and the OT3’s expense. We than have Rey’s climactic confrontation with Palpatine, a villain almost certainly brought back so that Kylo wouldn’t be the main villain (as per Chris Terio), get interrupted and knee-capped by vacillating and inconsistent motivations and exposition, just so Ben can show up and act as Palaptine’s battery with Rey, then have Rey get Sleeping Beauty-ed for no good reason just so she’ll kiss this character she’d shared no dialogue with that wasn’t as his abusive and evil persona.

    I’ll be blunt, this “Reylo” story stinks of being written by people either ignorant of or apathetic towards how a real human being would react towards Kylo, or people showing some benign racism and sexism in their favoritism towards a character because he’s a white male, and thus more appealing than a female hero or a black male lead.
    Brutally honest.

    I like Adam Driver as a comedian, but I abhorre the fact he had to play Kilo Ren.
    The treatment of this character doomed the sequels imo.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    I don't know why did they try to connect the two so tightly, they share so little in common other than being force users.

    Kylo Ren's conflict has to do with Luke and his parents, Rey has to do with Palpatine. So it was completely different. And both of their conflict was missed. Especially Rey with Palpatine, that's one of the weakest part of ST. Even PT did a much better job on Anakin and Palpatine.
    Prior to TROS, I think they had a lot in common. Both had access to tremendous power, that frightened them. Both had been abandoned by their parents. Both were desperately lonely. Kylo was drawn to Rey because he saw a kindred spirit. Rey was drawn to Kylo because he understood her.

    TFA showed a chemistry between them. TLJ continued it. But TROS threw it in the trash compactor along with everything else.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    That actually makes no sense because Vader redeemed himself in the end, admitted all his mistakes. If there is trouble he could speak with his grandson as Anakin Skywalker.
    Yes, interesting that Anakin couldn't be a**** to help his abused neglected grandson, but happily gave aid and succour to Palpatine's granddaughter.

  9. #24
    iMan 42s
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    Yes, interesting that Anakin couldn't be a**** to help his abused neglected grandson, but happily gave aid and succour to Palpatine's granddaughter.
    The Dark-side clouds the Jedi's vision and Palpatine appeared to Ben as Vader telling him it was all bullshit. You have to connect with them and when you don't you can even ignore the ghosts. Qui-gon yelled through the force for Anakin to not slaughter the Tusken's, Anakin didn't pay attention and did it anyways.

    Rey connected with the dead Jedi and happened to get Anakin on the other line whereas Ben didn't or never bothered to considering as far as he knew he already did.
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  10. #25
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    I don't know why did they try to connect the two so tightly, they share so little in common other than being force users.
    I thought that was the point. They were connected through the force. That being said, from what I saw in TROS, it seemed as if most force users have some kind of connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Kylo Ren's conflict has to do with Luke and his parents, Rey has to do with Palpatine. So it was completely different. And both of their conflict was missed. Especially Rey with Palpatine, that's one of the weakest part of ST. Even PT did a much better job on Anakin and Palpatine.
    I am not quite sure what you mean by conflict. But I would say that Rey's main conflict is with herself. Her abandonment issues and her struggle to define herself as a person.

    She had a conflict with Palpy, but not the way you are implying. She hated him and she wanted him dead, not due to some power he had over her. She wanted him dead because he killed her parents and turned her childhood into a living hell. By the end of the TLJ she had evolved so much in defining herself and deciding on who her family was. That her lineage had no hold on her. That's the main reason she didn't have to think twice about turning down her grandfathers offer to take over the Sith.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    The Dark-side clouds the Jedi's vision and Palpatine appeared to Ben as Vader telling him it was all bullshit. You have to connect with them and when you don't you can even ignore the ghosts. Qui-gon yelled through the force for Anakin to not slaughter the Tusken's, Anakin didn't pay attention and did it anyways.

    Rey connected with the dead Jedi and happened to get Anakin on the other line whereas Ben didn't or never bothered to considering as far as he knew he already did.
    Or maybe it was...... because she's Rey.

  12. #27
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    Dropping this (completely fan written but well argued” article here. No, it’s not at all kind to the “Reylo” story arc, but it does put forth evidence and addresses some counterarguments, so it’s worth a read.

    https://the-swsc.com/2019/12/20/star...against-women/
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  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Didn't a bunch of dead Jedi cameo in TROS? They're voices but they do show up to power up Rey.
    Yeah but it really does make them look lazy in hindsight. They couldn't give Luke this power up during Bespin or Endor? In fact why didn't Yoda stop Luke from Screwing up with Kylo?

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Dropping this (completely fan written but well argued” article here. No, it’s not at all kind to the “Reylo” story arc, but it does put forth evidence and addresses some counterarguments, so it’s worth a read.

    https://the-swsc.com/2019/12/20/star...against-women/
    In short, we get a "Twilight" case again. Where certain people become obsessed with an abusive relationship. Unlike last time though, it was the fans that turned it into a ship.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    Yeah but it really does make them look lazy in hindsight. They couldn't give Luke this power up during Bespin or Endor?
    Would he have even known how? Rey was using old Jedi texts he didn't have access to.

    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    In fact why didn't Yoda stop Luke from Screwing up with Kylo?
    Why couldn't Ben not interfere with Luke's duel with Vader on Bespin?
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