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  1. #1
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    Default Wonder Woman #753 Discussion/Spoilers

    Didn't see anybody start a thread yet.

    spoilers:
    -Not much to say with Valda. She and Diana fight the quantum metal beast, Valda is impatient and pierces it, causing her to be sent somewhere else. Exoristo's sword Diana lent her is left behind.
    -Paula recruits the new version of Armageddon who is the grand daughter of the original, who is said to have fought Wonder Woman in WWII. A new retcon is her dad is also said to have taken the Armageddon name and fought Diana. She has a grudge against her dad and granddad for experimenting on her.
    -Paula is looking for her next two Horsewomen. It's clear she doesn't count herself among the four. Genocide seems to be on an Island, and said to be guarded by 'Undead'.
    -The other Horsewoman Paula says will come from "Diana's side". I'm wondering if Paula intends to brainwash/gain control of Donna? Maybe she wrests control away from BWL? Genocide had Donna under some kind of psychic curse effect that forced her to fight Diana back in Simone's run. Maybe that will play into this?
    -Diana also thinks about the the people she's lost contact with, mentioning Donna, Cassie, and Steve. She gets out her Magic Sphere to try to contact them, when Maxima shows up in her apartment asking for help.
    end of spoilers

    I'm really liking what Orlando's been doing. Valda ending up being side plot just for action scene purposes is a little disappointing, but I love what Orlando has been doing continuity wise and acknowledging Diana's relationships with Donna and Cassie and how they've frayed in recent years. It'll be real sad to see him gone in a few months.

  2. #2
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    spoilers:
    Armageddon
    end of spoilers! That's some Bronze Age lovin'!

    spoilers:
    The other Horsewoman Paula says will come from "Diana's side". I'm wondering if Paula intends to brainwash/gain control of Donna? Maybe she wrests control away from BWL? Genocide had Donna under some kind of psychic curse effect that forced her to fight Diana back in Simone's run. Maybe that will play into this?
    end of spoilers

    I'm wondering if it's going to be spoilers:
    the cop that's been following Diana, somehow mind-controlled and powered up. I'd like it if there were more to the cop than just someone complained about Diana and property damage.
    end of spoilers

  3. #3
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    Nothing interesting. Valda came last issue. She and Diana fight the beast. Valda go away. Same thing with next issue... Read and forget.
    Orlando could have just write about the horsewomen in one issue instead of giving us these useless fillers...

    Next issue will be as useless as this one.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member vasir12's Avatar
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    The most interesting thing about this issue was Diana thinking about connecting with Donna, Cassie, and Peng. She seems to be thinking about her family a lot lately so it gives me hope that DC has a reunion in mind. Would be nice if Peng is brought into the fold since I like her character.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasir12 View Post
    The most interesting thing about this issue was Diana thinking about connecting with Donna, Cassie, and Peng. She seems to be thinking about her family a lot lately so it gives me hope that DC has a reunion in mind. Would be nice if Peng is brought into the fold since I like her character.
    This is good news. I would love to see a reunion.

  6. #6

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    I found Paula's recruitment speeches amazingly unconvincing. "Your father hated Wonder Woman and mutilated your DNA so that you could carry on his fight against her. To express your hatred and anger over what was done to you by him, go after the true cause - Wonder Woman! Which is exactly what your dad wanted when he did this to you."

    Rinse and repeat, although in this case from Devastation herself: "I was given a neglectful and abusive childhood so I would be the opposite of Wonder Woman, in order to destroy her. I'll get back at the people who did this to me by... destroying Wonder Woman just like they wanted!"

    Yeah, I dunno.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    I loved how everyone talked and the art was phenomenal. Warmaster is already far superior to Grail, she has a commanding presence and a fierceness about her that matches her beauty. When she called herself an alpha I believed it, especially in that fur. lol

    All the dialogue was good to me though, Diana's talk with Nora, Valda's righteous warrior speeches, Devastation's reply to Armageddon and Warmaster's revelations about Genocide. I'm hoping the fourth Horsewoman will be Maxima. Whomever it is Diana is going to have a lot to deal with, taking a line from Villainy Inc. "there's not a sissy in the lot".

    Several allies will be needed so this is a fine time for the first mention of Cassie in the book post Rebirth, it may take the entire Wonder Woman family to handle this extinction level event.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 03-11-2020 at 09:20 PM.

  8. #8
    Mighty Member MarquisAsh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I loved how everyone talked and the art was phenomenal. Warmaster is already far superior to Grail, she has a commanding presence and a fierceness about her that matches her beauty. When she called herself an alpha I believed it, especially in that fur. lol

    All the dialogue was good to me though, Diana's talk with Nora, Valda's righteous warrior speeches, Devastation's reply to Armageddon and Warmaster's revelations about Genocide. I'm hoping the fourth Horsewoman will be Maxima. Whomever it is Diana is going to have a lot to deal with, taking a line from Villainy Inc. "there's not a sissy in the lot".

    Several allies will be needed so this is a fine time for the first mention of Cassie in the book post Rebirth, it may take the entire Wonder Woman family to handle this extinction level event.
    Hopefully Donna, Artemis, Cassie, and Peng can join the fight! I also enjoyed the issue and hoping we can see some more of Donna and hopefully Cassie will show up soon.

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Agree with Manakel and Doctor Bifrost.

    The discussions between Diana and Valda, and later Diana and Nora, really fails to say anything interesting. It seems like Orlando wants to present this Wonder Woman as a wiser person than she has been in the past, but has no way to manage it. And I have no idea on how his vision of Themyscira looks like, though I'm afraid it's somewhat like "noble warrior hero women".

    We get a lot of references and callbacks to other characters, but so far Orlando hasn't done anything interesting with any of them. And Valda and the Chromebeast just looks like empty spinning action wheels for now.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Agree with Manakel and Doctor Bifrost.

    The discussions between Diana and Valda, and later Diana and Nora, really fails to say anything interesting. It seems like Orlando wants to present this Wonder Woman as a wiser person than she has been in the past, but has no way to manage it. And I have no idea on how his vision of Themyscira looks like, though I'm afraid it's somewhat like "noble warrior hero women".

    We get a lot of references and callbacks to other characters, but so far Orlando hasn't done anything interesting with any of them. And Valda and the Chromebeast just looks like empty spinning action wheels for now.
    I'm sorry kjn but I think you're missing the point of Valda's appearance. It wasn't just to showcase a guest star (which it did well, I'm a new Iron Maiden fan) or a useless battle with a chromium beast for the sake of action, but to show Diana aspects about her relationship to the truth. Valda's mother hid her heritage the same way Diana hid Helen's. Both thought it was for the greater good, but after meeting Valda Diana realized it wasn't. She took Helen's choice to be a villain or heroine away from her, thereby doing her a disservice. She noticed it in that moment, hence the flashback.

    Valda.jpg

    As for the conversation with Nora, Wonder Woman made a tough call and chose wisely without sacrificing her promise. It was literally the wisdom of Athena at work that so often goes underutilized.

    And why would you fear that Orlando sees the Amazons as "noble warrior hero women"? If they're not that, what do you think they are?

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I'm sorry kjn but I think you're missing the point of Valda's appearance. It wasn't just to showcase a guest star (which it did well, I'm a new Iron Maiden fan) or a useless battle with a chromium beast for the sake of action, but to show Diana aspects about her relationship to the truth. Valda's mother hid her heritage the same way Diana hid Helen's. Both thought it was for the greater good, but after meeting Valda Diana realized it wasn't. She took Helen's choice to be a villain or heroine away from her, thereby doing her a disservice. She noticed it in that moment, hence the flashback.
    An awful lot of pages to spend on setting that up, then. And it also sets up a pattern of that Old Diana was stupid, but New Diana, written by Orlando, is wiser. If you want to do something like that, you gotta earn it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    And why would you fear that Orlando sees the Amazons as "noble warrior hero women"? If they're not that, what do you think they are?
    Champions of civilisation. Scholars, poets, scientists, healers, and artisans.

    ETA: And teachers!
    Last edited by kjn; 03-13-2020 at 01:42 PM.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    An awful lot of pages to spend on setting that up, then. And it also sets up a pattern of that Old Diana was stupid, but New Diana, written by Orlando, is wiser. If you want to do something like that, you gotta earn it.
    It earned it over the course of 2 issues that you say was too long, but we got an interesting new (to most of us) character and a fight with a plot point embedded that moved the ball forward. It also set-up the the upcoming 4 Horsewomen so none of that was wasted space. Also "Old Diana" was written by Orlando too, so he's not doing anyone a disservice, he's recognizing her growth and change of perspective under his own pen.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Champions of civilisation. Scholars, poets, scientists, healers, and artisans.

    ETA: And teachers!
    They're all those things and noble hero warrior women too. Diana says outright to Nora she chose to "teach" Valda the ways of modern earth and the Amazons, rather than simply resorting to violence to bring her in for punishment. The rest have been seen under Orlando as well so I'm at a loss to see why you'd think he doesn't know all their qualities.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    It earned it over the course of 2 issues that you say was too long, but we got an interesting new (to most of us) character and a fight with a plot point embedded that moved the ball forward. It also set-up the the upcoming 4 Horsewomen so none of that was wasted space. Also "Old Diana" was written by Orlando too, so he's not doing anyone a disservice, he's recognizing her growth and change of perspective under his own pen.
    Sorry for taking so long replying, but I think I needed to go a bit more in-depth here. This also brings in some stuff from earlier issues.

    Back in #750, we had Diana saying this to Hera:

    I need to refocus, to redefine. My mission must continue, but not under your guidance, or anyone else's. The mission of Wonder Woman must be defined by Wonder Woman.
    Now, I'm all for a Diana (and Amazons!) that are more independent of the gods/patrons. But as written, this scene has two big flaws. The first is that there has never been a real positive relation between Hera and Diana (or the Amazons). The second is that this decision hasn't been built up by any introspection or discussion. The result is that the scene feels empty and devoid of any meaning. All it does is say "no more gods!"

    Which is about as poor a take as having gods interfering every single issue.

    A little later on we get this quote from Hippolyta:

    Since we broke our chains, we've been rebels.
    This refers back to Herakles, but who have the Amazons been rebelling against? Not the gods. The closest we get to the Amazons as rebels is the Bana-Mighdall as first formed by Pérez, and they became bad guys.

    This is followed by Diana's new declaration of her new mission:

    That hunt, that mission, more than ever, is for the truth. And the truth… the truth is an act of rebellion.
    Now, I can agree with the statement that truth is revolutionary (or a rebellion). But this is about the weakest possible way to go about it.

    Then we get a new statement from Diana in this issue:

    Valda and I come from similar cultures, Nora. I saw myself in her, when I was younger and brasher.
    But which Wonder Woman was this "younger and brasher" one? Certainly not Rucka's. And also not Wilson, even if she did put critique of the brashness of heroes into Etta's mouth she also had Ares and Giganta critique Wonder Woman for not doing enough.

    And then we have Diana affirming that the Orlando's Amazons were a warrior culture in #752:

    My own mother was a warrior, my people warriors. I understand your ways. Once… I followed them. Some Amazons still do.
    But the real Amazon rebels—those who said "no" to the edicts of the gods—were the Bana-Mighdall. But they were also the "warrior" ones who turned bad. Orlando's messaging is all muddled and confused here.

    So what I get from Orlando's run so far has been statements of character development, but it's not grounded in prior runs or in actually doing character development. We get a similar schizophrenic depiction of the Amazons, with statements of them being rebels—but against whom?—and a return to them as a "warrior culture". The imagery used for them in #750 with the old-school crafting also meshes badly with the high-tech we then get to see in #753.

    It doesn't help that Orlando is juggling three different storylines, between Grail and the Dark Fates, Warmaster and her Horsewoman, and whatever is up with Nora, all together with what he wants to say about Wonder Woman's new "mission".
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Sorry for taking so long replying, but I think I needed to go a bit more in-depth here. This also brings in some stuff from earlier issues.

    Back in #750, we had Diana saying this to Hera:



    Now, I'm all for a Diana (and Amazons!) that are more independent of the gods/patrons. But as written, this scene has two big flaws. The first is that there has never been a real positive relation between Hera and Diana (or the Amazons). The second is that this decision hasn't been built up by any introspection or discussion. The result is that the scene feels empty and devoid of any meaning. All it does is say "no more gods!"

    Which is about as poor a take as having gods interfering every single issue.

    A little later on we get this quote from Hippolyta:



    This refers back to Herakles, but who have the Amazons been rebelling against? Not the gods. The closest we get to the Amazons as rebels is the Bana-Mighdall as first formed by Pérez, and they became bad guys.

    This is followed by Diana's new declaration of her new mission:



    Now, I can agree with the statement that truth is revolutionary (or a rebellion). But this is about the weakest possible way to go about it.

    Then we get a new statement from Diana in this issue:



    But which Wonder Woman was this "younger and brasher" one? Certainly not Rucka's. And also not Wilson, even if she did put critique of the brashness of heroes into Etta's mouth she also had Ares and Giganta critique Wonder Woman for not doing enough.

    And then we have Diana affirming that the Orlando's Amazons were a warrior culture in #752:



    But the real Amazon rebels—those who said "no" to the edicts of the gods—were the Bana-Mighdall. But they were also the "warrior" ones who turned bad. Orlando's messaging is all muddled and confused here.

    So what I get from Orlando's run so far has been statements of character development, but it's not grounded in prior runs or in actually doing character development. We get a similar schizophrenic depiction of the Amazons, with statements of them being rebels—but against whom?—and a return to them as a "warrior culture". The imagery used for them in #750 with the old-school crafting also meshes badly with the high-tech we then get to see in #753.

    It doesn't help that Orlando is juggling three different storylines, between Grail and the Dark Fates, Warmaster and her Horsewoman, and whatever is up with Nora, all together with what he wants to say about Wonder Woman's new "mission".
    I don't want to go back to other issues, we're talking about #753. But if we must...Diana's denouncement of her gods was set up by Cheetah wanting her to do it and Diana saw that she was right. It wasn't all of a sudden, it took place over time and Cheetah specifically references the Bana as being the smart Amazons who saw through the gods' duplicity and abandoned them. Hera was used because that was the deity Cheetah wanted to kill and called down from Olympus. Cheetah was defeated because the lasso showed she had become like the gods she rallied against, making decisions without caring about the feelings of those effected. She decided how Diana should react and ignored Diana's ideas on the subject, thereby being a hypocrite but professing it was for her own good which was a lie.

    The Amazons have had their classic and technological aspects since Rebirth we only saw the technology explicitly after their return.

    Wonder Woman's mission is still being defined by her and her alone, that's the character development you're not recognizing.

    750 HERA.jpg

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    This issue was a 3.5 out of 5 for me. The parts with Valda were ok, nothing groundbreaking. My favorite parts were the ones with Paula, Devastation, & Armageddon. I think Orlando is doing a great job at introducing/re-introducing these villains for the modern age. I'm excited to see how the 4 Horsewomen plot plays out.
    Currently(or soon to be) Reading: Alan Scott: Green Lantern, Batman/Superman: World's Finest, Fire & Ice: Welcome to Smallville, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Jay Garrick: The Flash, Justice Society of America, Power Girl, Superman, Shazam, Titans, Wesley Dodds: Sandman, Wonder Woman, & World's Finest: Teen Titans.

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