Batman 88 & 89 discussion

[Gotham citizen]

Because nobody started a discussion about Batman 88 and Batman 89 is already came out, I have decided to open this thread.
Finally the prologue seems ended (after only two months from the start of Tynion's run) and the players will start to play.
What do you think about those last two issues?

[millernumber1]

Really enjoying the art by March and Pagulayan today. Big fan of both, and Harley and Selina teaming up felt like a good GCS callback.

This interview by Tynion was pretty good: https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...line-joker-war
I liked his take on Bat/Cat.

[Diebs]

Wow. That Designer costume is really bad. Otherwise a promising start.

[Batman Begins 2005]

Liking it more than the mostly rubbish Tom King Batman run.

[lilyrose]

Really enjoying the art by March and Pagulayan today. Big fan of both, and Harley and Selina teaming up felt like a good GCS callback.

This interview by Tynion was pretty good: https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...line-joker-war
I liked his take on Bat/Cat.

I don't like what he said about Bat/Cat at all. He doesn't seem to like the pairing and is more interested in Selina as a villain, which is bullshit. Also, he wants to please fans who both loved AND hated them? That's absurd. Catwoman is Batman's most popular love interest by FAR, there's no need to pander to anyone who's not a fan of the relationship. They're miniscule.

The only thing I hold onto in this is him saying it's hard to write for them knowing that King's Bat/Cat series is coming, which I'm not sure why that would make it hard for him, unless... he has some mandate from DC not to break them up because of that. At least not permanently. So, my guess is he will spit them up in the middle of this, for Joker War and then they get back together at the end of that or something, before 5G.

[millernumber1]

I don't like what he said about Bat/Cat at all. He doesn't seem to like the pairing and is more interested in Selina as a villain, which is bullshit. Also, he wants to please fans who both loved AND hated them? That's absurd. Catwoman is Batman's most popular love interest by FAR, there's no need to pander to anyone who's not a fan of the relationship. They're miniscule.

The only thing I hold onto in this is him saying it's hard to write for them knowing that King's Bat/Cat series is coming, which I'm not sure why that would make it hard for him, unless... he has some mandate from DC not to break them up because of that. At least not permanently. So, my guess is he will spit them up in the middle of this, for Joker War and then they get back together at the end of that or something, before 5G.

I mean, he says he likes the pairing: "Working with and around that relationship, which is one that I do deeply care for in the comics, and delivering something that the people who respond deeply and powerfully to that relationship".

As for people who aren't a fan of the relationship...there's certainly a lot on these boards. You can argue they're not representative, but that argument also works against the Bat/Cat fans (which include myself).

I think Tynion said it was hard because he didn't want to duplicate what King is going to do in Bat/Cat, or create something that might be an obstacle to that series.

[lilyrose]

I mean, he says he likes the pairing: "Working with and around that relationship, which is one that I do deeply care for in the comics, and delivering something that the people who respond deeply and powerfully to that relationship".

As for people who aren't a fan of the relationship...there's certainly a lot on these boards. You can argue they're not representative, but that argument also works against the Bat/Cat fans (which include myself).

I think Tynion said it was hard because he didn't want to duplicate what King is going to do in Bat/Cat, or create something that might be an obstacle to that series.

I mean in general though. People were so excited about the wedding for a reason. Few aren't fans of the pairing, so the fact that he wants to please both the fans and the people who weren't fans is weird, unless of course he identifies with the non-fans, because he himself is one.

[K. Jones]

It's a kind of neat run so far.

There's a lot of vibes I'm getting from a lot of places. As a Tynion piece certainly as a follow-up to Detective (Gotham Knights), and the Eternal story arcs. There's obviously the callbacks to Gotham City Sirens as well as Batman '66. There's Lucius in his ear giving us that Dark Knight Trilogy vibe. There's a rising Joker something going on that feels like ... well, a "I Finally Get To Use Joker" storyline. And his Joker feels like an extension of Snyder's so far, a lot. Which I'm ... not necessarily looking forward to, but I'll judge it as it comes. Joker having a new Moll is definitely something I'm okay with, and her having a nonplussed reaction to Harley is fine (although we definitely saw it already in ... like every interaction N52 Joker's Daughter had with Harley, mostly concentrated in bad Suicide Squad books.)

I dunno, though. I mean there's world-building and an over-arcing theme of Bruce rebuilding more of the city again, plus interaction between the villainous element that feels ... like soap opera drama, but also feels like they're humans, people who have long histories of that sort of weird Gotham Villains Friendship. Like they're a club, frankly, that still interacts and everyone has a lot of history with everybody. So while it's contrived to have a big old "here's a LOT OF VILLAINS" story (with assassins crowding the book up on top of that!), at least they feel like people with pasts and presents and relationships.

What's lacking? I guess it's just sort of Batman moving from place to place without much of his own supporting characters. Typically I feel like a story tends to be Batman and a bunch of good guys dealing with the mysterious nature of some villains. Here it feels more about Selina and the old Villains Club, and Batman is just her hero boyfriend doing his thing. (We do have Lucius, and Bullock, mainly, so it's not all isolation. And Selina is assuredly part of Batman's support group. Harley along for the ride is fine.)

Callback to Riddler in the Animated Series was nice. And I didn't mind Batman downplaying his bat-god status when he broke those codes, being like "I mean, I'm human, I practice these things sometimes."

And the art was nice. More Guillem makes for more instant feelings of GC Sirens. I'd still like this whole thing to be a bit less superhero art and a bit more Noir, "New Gotham" style. Hard to grade in isolation, though. I guess I'm along for the ride at least! Curious about Punchline. Curious why Joker feels the need now to actually aim at the civilian identities that he really doesn't care about.

[Korath]

89 is definitively an improvement on 88, which I found somewhat lacking. However, this series is very much tied down by the need to upkeep the "legacy" of Tom King's run. Batman should be breaking up with Catwoman because of her past dealings, which are clearly far more grievous than early suspected, for instance. And I can't help but feel that Tynion would break them up, if not for Tom King's hopefully totally not-canon Bat/Cat series coming out someday (perhaps never, if we're lucky and he's done destroying Batman for a generation or two). Because, honestly, Batman and Catwoman just plainly don't work as an established couple.

There was more chemistry between Talia and Bruce in Morrison's run, and she was irremediably evil in this one!

[thwhtGuardian]

I'm still not liking the heavy riffing on Hush and Knightfall going on with the plot but the characterization and dialogue are still worlds beyond what was offered by King so I'll continue to read and hope that the Designer doesn't feel like a cut-rate Hush/Bane

[cgh]

Still a little too gadgety for my liking, but I like Tynion's dialogue a lot. Some good character moments too. He seems like a more confident writer these days. And as a lover of an ambiguously villainous Catwoman, I'm happy about her direction now. The idea of this anarchic Catwoman agreeing to something as conventional as marriage is just silly.

[jetengine]

Wow. That Designer costume is really bad. Otherwise a promising start.

Apparently he's supposed to be like a Metal Gear villain which I get

[Jackalope89]

I will say, I am not against BatCat. In general. The way King went about it, especially after issue 50, was the wrong way. And having it spread to other books in the worst way, is even worse. And after all of that, Bruce has a lot to make up for before I feel comfortable with bringing Helena in.

[Starrius]

I will say, I am not against BatCat. In general. The way King went about it, especially after issue 50, was the wrong way. And having it spread to other books in the worst way, is even worse. And after all of that, Bruce has a lot to make up for before I feel comfortable with bringing Helena in.

I am totally a Bat/Cat fan. Bruce/Selina is my 3rd favorite comic pairing after Peter/Mary Jane and Dick/Kory. I didn't like how King was writing them. The dialogue was bad. There have been so much griping and complaining. I have never seen so much of that about any Batman comic. King's run seems to be the most divisive.
I was concerned that he was making the pairing look bad and giving good reasons for people that already disliked them as pairing to dislike and say that they are bad pairing and shouldn't be together.
Obviously, there are people in this forum that have made their anti-Bat/Cat feelings known.
There are other people that support Bat/Cat as pairing.


I hope Bruce and Selina stay together. I'd like Selina to reform and be a good,suitable partner for Bruce. Being a superhero comic book series, I always expect challenges for this pairing but hope they work things out. With Selina being a former villain, I always thought her villainous past would be one of those obstacles given to Bruce/Selina to overcome.

Bruce/Selina isn't just the most popular Bruce pairing by far. It is also one of the most popular comicbook pairings in DC comics and overall comics.

[gregpersons]

Really enjoying the art by March and Pagulayan today. Big fan of both, and Harley and Selina teaming up felt like a good GCS callback.

This interview by Tynion was pretty good: https://www.comicsbeat.com/interview...line-joker-war
I liked his take on Bat/Cat.

That is a good interview! I'm not feeling this story so far but I'm interested to see Punchline and Designer.