Does anyone else missing having Real Villains?

[kumiho]

It seems nowadays all of the iconic villains of Marvel have been either killed off, distorted or reformed into psuedo/anti heroes. Galactus, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Loki, Venom, etc... Most have turned over a leaf to become heroes(of a sorts), so that marvel could seek profits on redemption stories and making the fun bad guys more "fun" and not just have them pop up now and again, but rather be there all the time, right along with the heroes. The problem though, when you take away all the big villains, who is left for the heroes to fight? All the battles become one offs with throw away baddies, with big overblown events in between. Instead, the big fights become the heroes fighting one another. Throughout the Disney era, from Civil War to Avengers vs X-Men, even into this poorly conceived AXIS arc, its all heroes fighting heroes taking center stage, while the "Villains" few people even care about. This whole thing just seems to make the heroes into bickering hypocrites.

I miss the Real Villains. Cause without great villains, you can't have great heroes. And that's where we are. A world without Great Heroes.

[seccruz]

It seems nowadays all of the iconic villains of Marvel have been either killed off, distorted or reformed into psuedo/anti heroes. Galactus, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Loki, Venom, etc... Most have turned over a leaf to become heroes(of a sorts), so that marvel could seek profits on redemption stories and making the fun bad guys more "fun" and not just have them pop up now and again, but rather be there all the time, right along with the heroes. The problem though, when you take away all the big villains, who is left for the heroes to fight? All the battles become one offs with throw away baddies, with big overblown events in between. Instead, the big fights become the heroes fighting one another. Throughout the Disney era, from Civil War to Avengers vs X-Men, even into this poorly conceived AXIS arc, its all heroes fighting heroes taking center stage, while the "Villains" few people even care about. This whole thing just seems to make the heroes into bickering hypocrites.

I miss the Real Villains. Cause without great villains, you can't have great heroes. And that's where we are. A world without Great Heroes.

YES! I'm so done with this measuring contest between Avengers/X-men...
Bring on the bad guys... And make them good!

[Grey]

So I know I'll be in the minority but I don't mind having fewer villains and more hero skirmishes.

Why? In the real world, one person's villain is another person's hero; one person's hero is another person's villain. I think the idea of "good guys" butting heads makes for a much more real-world relatable scenario.

For example, to this day people are still debating who was right in avx- xmen, avengers, or both? Usually with a clear bad guy you don't get this kind of discussion. But I find when good guys have conflict sometimes, it shows that different perspectives are valid even if we don't agree with them.

Anyway I can see why some people would prefer more traditional villains in a superhero comic book. But I like the internal philosophy that some of the "good guy versus good guy" conflicts generates in my mind when I read it. And I'm not against villains altogether; I think a good mix of villains and other-hero conflicts would be ideal.

[kumiho]

So I know I'll be in the minority but I don't mind having fewer villains and more hero skirmishes.

Why? In the real world, one person's villain is another person's hero; one person's hero is another person's villain. I think the idea of "good guys" butting heads makes for a much more real-world relatable scenario.

For example, to this day people are still debating who was right in avx- xmen, avengers, or both? Usually with a clear bad guy you don't get this kind of discussion. But I find when good guys have conflict sometimes, it shows that different perspectives are valid even if we don't agree with them.

Anyway I can see why some people would prefer more traditional villains in a superhero comic book. But I like the internal philosophy that some of the "good guy versus good guy" conflicts generates in my mind when I read it. And I'm not against villains altogether; I think a good mix of villains and other-hero conflicts would be ideal.

I do agree. There is room for heroes to butt heads, fighting over their own viewpoints of right and wrong. Not to mention, some of the best villains are the ones who feel that what they are doing is right, even when they bring nothing but suffering with their choices. Magneto is a great example of that end of things. I'm more complaining because the current trend is not so much even less villains... it's pretty much no big villains, and hero and hero has become the sad norm.

[Izanami]

It seems nowadays all of the iconic villains of Marvel have been either killed off, distorted or reformed into psuedo/anti heroes. Galactus, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Loki, Venom, etc... Most have turned over a leaf to become heroes(of a sorts), so that marvel could seek profits on redemption stories and making the fun bad guys more "fun" and not just have them pop up now and again, but rather be there all the time, right along with the heroes. The problem though, when you take away all the big villains, who is left for the heroes to fight? All the battles become one offs with throw away baddies, with big overblown events in between. Instead, the big fights become the heroes fighting one another. Throughout the Disney era, from Civil War to Avengers vs X-Men, even into this poorly conceived AXIS arc, its all heroes fighting heroes taking center stage, while the "Villains" few people even care about. This whole thing just seems to make the heroes into bickering hypocrites.

I miss the Real Villains. Cause without great villains, you can't have great heroes. And that's where we are. A world without Great Heroes.

This soo much. The X-Men haven't been the same as you have mentioned. At least with the Loki we have the Evil one running around but it still doesn't make it up why he was successful in the first place. There is a uniqueness and tragedy of Loki falling into the same thing over and over again. Such a horrible victim of fate that will never learn. In terms of X-men the villains I've enjoyed where the ones that were more human. What I mean by this is the fact that there are like another other person you can meet in Real Life. These are the kinds of villains in which you end up waking in the middle of the night knowing some version of them are out there. We desperately need to bring back villains like Creed, Stryker, and Hodge (due to terrifying Tsundere status) or make new ones that challenges the X-Men on different levels not just in the powerhouse department. We need those that can hit them in the societal and political level as well. Maybe we can get a Bill O'reilly, Rush Limbaugh, or Glenn Beck :P
Also get rid of the Hellfire Brats they really lowered the mark on the hellfire club. It's okay if the hellfire club has a branch to challenge the student body of the X-men but not like this.
On a side note I do wonder if some X-Men should be turned permanently into villains and I am looking at the ones who either fail as heroes, have nothing to do/ not being used and cast aside, and maybe excelled at being a better villain than a hero in their moment of darkness. Just a thought. Don't hate me. *Ducks*

[Bafflement]

Also get rid of the Hellfire Brats they really lowered the mark on the hellfire club. It's okay if the hellfire club has a branch to challenge the student body of the X-men but not like this.

I'd like to see Trevor Fitzroy come back and brutally murder the Hellfire brats in the process. Killing kids is what he does best, after all. He could drain them in order to reincorporate himself out of the timestream.

[Magneto]

Bring back Gillen and Mr Sinister.

[Kisinith]

I don't mind hero fights if its done well, when characters have to be reduced to drooling idiots in order to make the plot work then I have a problem with it. When nuance and characterization are tossed aside so that the characters can take turns playing with the idiot ball, then I have a problem with it. When plot is replaced with prick waving, then I have a problem with it.

If they want to do a hero vs hero fight and have it make sense, have both sides have a reasonable argument then sure but that isn't what happens. Its ok even if the side I'm rooting for ends up in the wrong and/or losing just have the damn plot make sense and the characters handled well.

As far as needing real villains again, hell yes. Whats more they need to win as well, establish the villains as legitimate threats restore some of the tension.

[AbnormallyNormal]

The whole entire Good vs Evil black -and - white paradigm of American comics is out of date in the internet age of the 2010's. Most people gravitate towards mangas nowadays why? One big reason is that a lot of times morality is left more up to the READER to decide for themselves it isnt forced down your throat so blatantly with characters obviously divided into "good guys" and "bad guys". Frankly, I don't think anyone intelligent or emotionally mature enjoys such stark ethical divisions....

[grinningdemon]

The whole entire Good vs Evil black -and - white paradigm of American comics is out of date in the internet age of the 2010's. Most people gravitate towards mangas nowadays why? One big reason is that a lot of times morality is left more up to the READER to decide for themselves it isnt forced down your throat so blatantly with characters obviously divided into "good guys" and "bad guys". Frankly, I don't think anyone intelligent or emotionally mature enjoys such stark ethical divisions....

The problem is that these characters DO traditionally enjoy such stark ethical divisions...and, when all they do is fight amongst each other and forget those divisions, it makes them look petty and short sighted...and like a bunch of jerk offs.

[Kurolegacy]

Oh yea I miss it so much, especially considering that even with Axis, which started out with Red Skull with Xavier's powers, we've somehow ended right back to hero vs hero. How do you end up having Red Skull with Xavier's powers as a background event rather than center stage?

[berserkerclaw]

Yep. I miss villians too. I want normal good vs, bad comics. I'm tired of hero vs hero

[Bafflement]

The whole entire Good vs Evil black -and - white paradigm of American comics is out of date in the internet age of the 2010's. Most people gravitate towards mangas nowadays why? One big reason is that a lot of times morality is left more up to the READER to decide for themselves it isnt forced down your throat so blatantly with characters obviously divided into "good guys" and "bad guys". Frankly, I don't think anyone intelligent or emotionally mature enjoys such stark ethical divisions....

It's not that simple. There's a lot of middle ground between 'one-dimensional cackling archetype' and 'just misunderstood' that can be populated with a huge range of interesting yet fundamentally villainous characters.

[Jean Grey]

Eh. I think a good villain is one that does what they do while seeing themselves as being the hero. But to an extent. Magneto was pretty good at this, but it got to a point where he was just being dumb.

Then you have the Red Skull, who I think it's as evil as you get, although he never really gets to 'win'. Obviously.

Then you have others like Thanos, which imo is the worst and I don't mean that in a good way. He is like all about killing everyone. But 'eh'.

So I think writting a good villain is more than just creating an adversary for the heroes, but to really give it an actual motivation.

[huckleberry sin]

The whole entire Good vs Evil black -and - white paradigm of American comics is out of date in the internet age of the 2010's. Most people gravitate towards mangas nowadays why? One big reason is that a lot of times morality is left more up to the READER to decide for themselves it isnt forced down your throat so blatantly with characters obviously divided into "good guys" and "bad guys". Frankly, I don't think anyone intelligent or emotionally mature enjoys such stark ethical divisions....

Clearly the sophisticated tastes of the modern audience are better served by complex, morally ambiguous works such as One Piece.