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  1. #1051
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    You need to stop taking everything Kraktoa does at face value, even other characters living there have doubts on their society.
    I think we have people who are too far in both extremes on a lot of this. I feel there is something sinister underneath a lot of this (and not just the pale guy in the underground lab), but on the other hand a lot of posters concentrate on that part and aren't willing to take a look at how things might seem on behalf of those going through it.

    For example, the crucible is brutal, but also offers people who have lost a literal part of themselves a chance to become whole again. And the 'regular joe' mutant (as much as one CAN be a regular joe) has what looks like proof that death in it is merely a momentary inconvenience, it might not come across as anything worse than the hazing one gets in the military or a school sports team, or, depending on what they remember going through, not even that bad as the crucible is over quickly.

    Then you have people like Scott and Kurt questioning what's underneath it all, making the reader ask questions and setting up a slow burn. I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line Scott (and probably others) is going to go rogue - there are only two real storylines for a 'true believer' - the first is what do they do when they lose faith, the second (and much darker) is what are they willing to do in order to deny anything that makes them question that faith? I'm pretty sure Scott is being set up to take the first path, and I wonder if anyone is being set up to take the second - it would make for a thematic villain for the arc if anyone was.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  2. #1052
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think we have people who are too far in both extremes on a lot of this. I feel there is something sinister underneath a lot of this (and not just the pale guy in the underground lab), but on the other hand a lot of posters concentrate on that part and aren't willing to take a look at how things might seem on behalf of those going through it.

    For example, the crucible is brutal, but also offers people who have lost a literal part of themselves a chance to become whole again. And the 'regular joe' mutant (as much as one CAN be a regular joe) has what looks like proof that death in it is merely a momentary inconvenience, it might not come across as anything worse than the hazing one gets in the military or a school sports team, or, depending on what they remember going through, not even that bad as the crucible is over quickly.

    Then you have people like Scott and Kurt questioning what's underneath it all, making the reader ask questions and setting up a slow burn. I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line Scott (and probably others) is going to go rogue - there are only two real storylines for a 'true believer' - the first is what do they do when they lose faith, the second (and much darker) is what are they willing to do in order to deny anything that makes them question that faith? I'm pretty sure Scott is being set up to take the first path, and I wonder if anyone is being set up to take the second - it would make for a thematic villain for the arc if anyone was.
    Crucicle isn't needed to get the powers back. it is just a sadistic and a violent spectable

  3. #1053
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Crucicle isn't needed to get the powers back. it is just a sadistic and a violent spectable
    It is needed.

  4. #1054
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    It is needed.
    Whether it's needed or not isn't my point. What does it appear to be to the onlookers?
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  5. #1055
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    It is needed.
    It isn't. There is other better way of doing it

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think we have people who are too far in both extremes on a lot of this. I feel there is something sinister underneath a lot of this (and not just the pale guy in the underground lab), but on the other hand a lot of posters concentrate on that part and aren't willing to take a look at how things might seem on behalf of those going through it.
    Agreed.

    For example, the crucible is brutal, but also offers people who have lost a literal part of themselves a chance to become whole again. And the 'regular joe' mutant (as much as one CAN be a regular joe) has what looks like proof that death in it is merely a momentary inconvenience, it might not come across as anything worse than the hazing one gets in the military or a school sports team, or, depending on what they remember going through, not even that bad as the crucible is over quickly.
    Disagree. Hazing is considered bad when the people doing it get injured or die, however. They can come up with other alternatives than this.

    Then you have people like Scott and Kurt questioning what's underneath it all, making the reader ask questions and setting up a slow burn. I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line Scott (and probably others) is going to go rogue - there are only two real storylines for a 'true believer' - the first is what do they do when they lose faith, the second (and much darker) is what are they willing to do in order to deny anything that makes them question that faith? I'm pretty sure Scott is being set up to take the first path, and I wonder if anyone is being set up to take the second - it would make for a thematic villain for the arc if anyone was.
    Agreed. Jean's heading that way, too, in X-Force and I think when Kitty comes back she'll be in that group.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 03-21-2020 at 10:10 PM.

  7. #1057
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    The more I look at the QC the more it points to Krakoa being on shaky ground you just can't form a government with such contradictory opinions.
    1.Mystique - Don't trust anyone 2Emma- I am the best there is
    3.Shaw - Whats in it for me

    4Nightcrawler - Let the spirit guide you
    5Storm - Power is value
    6Jean - Family is value
    7.Xavier -We must survive/thrive
    8.Eric - We are superior
    9.Apocalypse - Only those fit to survive should(apex predator)
    10.Sinister - Evolution must be directed-ultimately it is not rolling dice with genes but playing chess with genes(god complex)

    11 Exodus- Honestly he's my fave but don't know his dictum(Maybe his is religious zeal- Being mutant is for the chosen and so they have a higher calling than the rest)

    It's like there's some similarity in all agreeing that mutantdom is special, but with each pulling in different directions can Krakoa survive?
    in government we call it checks and balances
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post


    Disagree. Hazing is considered bad when the people doing it get injured or die, however. They can come up with other alternatives than this.
    again this doesn't fall under that definition asssss since theyre being resurrected no harm no foul
    GrindrStone(D)

  8. #1058
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think we have people who are too far in both extremes on a lot of this. I feel there is something sinister underneath a lot of this (and not just the pale guy in the underground lab), but on the other hand a lot of posters concentrate on that part and aren't willing to take a look at how things might seem on behalf of those going through it.

  9. #1059
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post

    again this doesn't fall under that definition asssss since theyre being resurrected no harm no foul
    Yup the point of the "hazing" is death. This is one of concepts people are going to struggle with ,in real life when people had painful terminal illness people had a problem with them getting assisted suicide. No matter how this was done there was going to be a fan saying " I think they should found another way" or " They shouldn't be encouraging these people to die nothing is wrong with being a human". That is just how we view death as humans.

    I get why people don't like to crucible but when ever they equate to real life stuff to it does not make as much sense as they think. If you knew you could be resurrected wouldn't it change how you live life your life? Wouldn't you be more reckless? There is no way they view death like we view death. The Wolverines are playing Russian Roulette with their claws and people think hazing or death is the same for mutants.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 03-22-2020 at 01:36 AM.

  10. #1060
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It isn't. There is other better way of doing it
    Which is?

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  11. #1061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Yup the point of the "hazing" is death. This is one of concepts people are going to struggle with ,in real life when people had painful terminal illness people had a problem with them getting assisted suicide. No matter how this was done there was going to be a fan saying " I think they should found another way" or " They shouldn't be encouraging these people to die nothing is wrong with being a human". That is just how we view death as humans.
    You're arguing from a philosophical angle we're arguing from a practical one. Philosophy is a means to cope with this new development, it has no jurisdiction in how they die to get there. The process doesn't stop working if they didn't believe in it like Melody does, that's why it's a theatrical performance. This isn't about the dying part, that's necessary the conflict is how they do it. Not every problem is solved by having Apocalypse gutting people with a sword.

    I think you're estimating how alien Kraktoa is, they're not doing anything really alien to our culture. It might be their culture, but it's filled to brim with influence from humanity - since the writers of this story are humans.

    Assisted suicide can be down painlessly and privately, it's not an atmosphere evoking Rome's gladiator arenas. That's Apocalypse philosophy spilling through, since he was ancient when they ruled the world.

    I get why people don't like to crucible but when ever they equate to real life stuff to it does not make as much sense as they think. If you knew you could be resurrected wouldn't it change how you live life your life? Wouldn't you be more reckless? There is no way they view death like we view death. The Wolverines are playing Russian Roulette with their claws and people think hazing or death is the same for mutants.
    That's more about how they live their life, not with the Crucible being the reason for how to get to that state. Knowing you'll be resurrected is not the same as accepting whatever foolish idea Apocalypse says as being the right choice. Wolverine experiences every injury he gets, it's not pleasant - that's unavoidable. The Crucible isn't.

  12. #1062
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Saying this is a new society or mutant culture is such a BS argument I'm surprised people can even say it with a straight face. Krakoa hasn't been a thing up until, what a month or two in-universe? All the people that live there grew up in normal human society with normal human values (give or take a few exceptions).

    Telling people, "You can have your powers back, but first you have to fight a genocidal maniac that's went toe to toe with Hulk and Thor and all you get is a sword. Yes, he does intend to kill you and it will probably be both brutal and painful," should have a lot of people just going "hell NO!"

    Telling people "We'll bring you back to life and erase your memories of it," isn't exactly comforting either. That's just making it weirder.

    Just because characters can come back to life no doesn't mean they should all be comfortable lining up to die. You can't just say it's their culture when their culture hasn't even existed for 99% of their lives. It's not their native culture. It's just something they've started doing recently.

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Saying this is a new society or mutant culture is such a BS argument I'm surprised people can even say it with a straight face. Krakoa hasn't been a thing up until, what a month or two in-universe? All the people that live there grew up in normal human society with normal human values (give or take a few exceptions).

    Telling people, "You can have your powers back, but first you have to fight a genocidal maniac that's went toe to toe with Hulk and Thor and all you get is a sword. Yes, he does intend to kill you and it will probably be both brutal and painful," should have a lot of people just going "hell NO!"

    Telling people "We'll bring you back to life and erase your memories of it," isn't exactly comforting either. That's just making it weirder.

    Just because characters can come back to life no doesn't mean they should all be comfortable lining up to die. You can't just say it's their culture when their culture hasn't even existed for 99% of their lives. It's not their native culture. It's just something they've started doing recently.
    Agreed with the first paragraph. It's very strange how the mutants-- especially the average joe mutant who grew up in human society-- is okay with this.

    As for the cloning-resurrection thing... really, I'm more disappointed with Hickman/X-Writers pussyfooting through it. Why have an issue about an injured Storm / dead Kitty when you can just resurrect them? Why aren't there any kill-switches on the mutants when they go on missions? They seem okay with watching other people get murdered because, yay, cloning-resurrection...

    Hickman is clearly setting up Krakoa to fall (and being very obvious about it, too), but it also feels like this is a story that didn't actually need the X-Men to tell i.e. replace the cast with OCs and it'd still make sense.
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  14. #1064

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Telling people, "You can have your powers back, but first you have to fight a genocidal maniac that's went toe to toe with Hulk and Thor and all you get is a sword. Yes, he does intend to kill you and it will probably be both brutal and painful," should have a lot of people just going "hell NO!"
    And that's the point.

    They want to flatten to curve so the Five are not overloaded.

  15. #1065
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post

    It's not their native culture. It's just something they've started doing recently.
    ...but its still their culture no matter how new it is, theyre establishing a culture and way of life all their own.

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