Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[spirit2011]

This is basically what the premise is. And if you find this sort of story interesting, like you seem to do, then its a great run. Personally I'm sick of so many stories doing the morally grey thing with 'whatever it takes' type of actions. Its the kind of story that kept me away from the X-books by and large for years. And spending months, if not years, watching characters do progressively terrible things before finally finding a conscious is just exhausting. Seeing all of the things that they were willing to put up with and nod and shrug along too just makes it hard to root for them, or take them seriously as a moral person. Certainly not as any kind of hero.

The problem is that I don't find this a moral dilemma. It's very simple seeing it just for the cruelty
they could easily do another plan

Wanda can do it herself with a spell like she did for Rictor. Hook her up with another magic user and/or Hope and they could probably do it in groups.

She has to tap again on the life force, and I don't think she want to do it again and risk it all.

Scott was at fault as he wanted to kill Wanda instead of her restoring the x-gene

[Lucyinthesky]

This is all over the place. For starters, it is fact that Xavier is manipulating everyone. He confused to it in X-force, and that's not even getting in to Mystique and Moira. And it was constantly fluctuating as to how bad it was for mutants outside of Krakoa. In one story they could throw mutant pride festivals in public, and and the next they were getting rounded up for slaughter. The inconsistency makes it hard to take the danger seriously.

And I don't know what you were talking about with Creed. They literally sprang him from his trial for murder to dump him inside Krakoa. He's been in jail a ton, and either escaped or was sprang by people like Mystique and Magneto.

I am sorry but when did this happen, yes Mystique had a partnership with him when she was making deals on madripoor and even had a Son together but she also has used him multiple times or leave him behind.

Magneto hates sabretooth since the mutant massacre, he just work with one of his clones once during his solo series, without before killing his previous clone very painfuly and also when Sabretooth himself was inverted because of Axis. But there´s no big relationship between them really.


I find this threat interesting but also exhausting tbh honest, Krakoa will last what it will last until Hickman´s story is done and with luck it will go on even after that.

I get your frustration over all these bad ppl(villains) being on Krakoa but the truth is Magneto has been working, helping and even saving the world since at least 15 years in real world time and I would very much like to see him keep doing that because that makes him an interesting character to read.

About Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Sabretooth, Mystique, Selene, Exodus, Shaw, et al I see their situation as a standoff with the X-men, they will work with them as long as it benefices them and then they are most probably going to bolt on them, the X-men are not stupid so I am sure they have got a plan cocked up , especially in the case of sinister as they have actual records thanks to Moira, of what exactly he plans on doing and they have put him in the ideal place to get what he wants so they can stop him without doing the heavy lifting of seeking him all areound the world or the universe. My guess is that this is the same situation will all the other characters, maybe with the exception of Mystique who really can see the value of krakoa and Exodus who´s really loyal to the mutant cause.

Apocalypse is more complicated, at least Hickman´s, he seems to be working alongside the X-men but also is kind of trying to built his own turf and group withing Krakoa, which could mean he also has plans of killing the X-me like Shaw and Sinister or he really has come to see all mutants as his "children" so he will protect them, but he has his own ideas of how he´s going to go around doing that.

I frankly see more main villain material with Moira herself and Charles as proxy, because both their behavoir has changed in a really radical way to be a coincidence imo. It´s interesting how their plans little by little are pushing the X-men more and more towards the grey are when they perfectly had no need for that when they had Utopia, sure with less resources but simple in it´s conception.

[pkingdom]

I am sorry but when did this happen, yes Mystique had a partnership with him when she was making deals on madripoor and even had a Son together but she also has used him multiple times or leave him behind.

Magneto hates sabretooth since the mutant massacre he just work with his one of his clones once during his solo series, without before killing him very painfuly, and when Sabretooth himself was inverted because of Axis. But there´s no big relationship between them really.

I was just being broad. Sabretooth has been imprisoned a million times and is magically around later when a writer needs him.

[Knives]

Moving the goal posts, first we have to discuss whether you agree Nightcrawler was right over Apocalypse. It's alarming how you're conflating every mutant criminal is going to line up behind Apocalypse without thinking and that the threat is civil war is what should keep the mutant population subdued out of fear rather than oppose him. Which would be in character for Apocalypse, given that he's an immortal tyrant.

I'm not suggesting they break their promise to all villains, just the ones who aren't trustworthy.

"Powerful assets" are only assets when they have loyalty your group, not corruptive ones known for having their own horrible agendas that could turn on you at any time, like Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister. Alliances with villains like them are brief in nature, they're not someone you should think are going to be long term allies.

Do you know who Apocalypse is? What his personality is like? What's he's done? Your reaction to the villains is like you're going them a complete blank slate and that they're loyal X-men now. Many can do this, but not all of them. Except I never said they had to go back to the previous status quo, you're trapping yourself into thinking it's either Apocalypse or death when that's not all the options available. The mind control is a theory, but what if I'm right?What if Apocalypse got to Xavier, which in turn go to Emma and the other telepaths and so on? Then what? Why wouldn't I be looking at what the writers have made in the past to know what they're doing? That's what writers do, they have patterns. Do you have any proof Hickman did a 180 on his thoughts on the Avengers? Where did he say the Illuminati were right? Judging a book by its cover is not exploring how writers did prior projects or characters pasts, it's about skin deep reactions.

So what? They aren't any different from other supremacists, it's in the name. Wasn't too long ago Apocalypse nearly destroyed humanity with a gene bomb when he evolved out of his Evan persona. Supremacy is about being superior to other races, not whether you want to kill humans (Apocalypse does, btw.) Moving the goal posts. Fairly sure killing mutants is illegal in the Marvel universe.

You'll toss Creed to the wolves but won't bat any eye for Apocalypse? They're both monsters.

Part of the fun with reading comics is dissecting the stories and figuring out where it'll go. It's not passive entertainment. It's not a conspiracy theory to think Apocalypse is an ancient tyrant who believes in the Survival of the Fittest that shouldn't be trusted. I salute Hickman for making Apocalypse come off like someone that is trustworthy for readers, that's master class writing give his past.

Part of your "facts" are basing it on Moira being right based on future time lines, which in the Marvel universe are very fluid.

Are you going to question Apocalypse? You've avoided speaking about him in this post. He's not a "good guy," he's mutant Satan.

Very well again what do you suggest?

Let Kurt and other X-men take power for not liking it when they lose a vote. Even if it could start a mutant civil war?

If they break the promise why other villains who agreed to come to Krakoa and have their crimes forgiven in exchange for obeying the laws of Krakoa would believe the X-men?

The only way to convict someone in Krakoa or anyone in a society is when they break the law by generating a sanction.

Apocalypse did not break any law.

Or are you saying that the X-men are above the Krakoa law? Or above the decisions of the board?

If I remember well Apocalypse was invited. He did not ask for or impose his will on strength when he came to Krakoa. Xavier and the others agreed to forgive their past and if that somehow turns against them in the future then it is their fault. But what kind of leaders would they be for their people if they did not respect their own laws or honor their word?

Can a nation survive divided or without laws having to be followed by everyone?

[BroHomo]

I was just being broad. Sabretooth has been imprisoned a million times and is magically around later when a writer needs him.

Uhhhh Im not sure this is correct

[Lucyinthesky]

I was just being broad. Sabretooth has been imprisoned a million times and is magically around later when a writer needs him.

Sabretooth seldom has been in prison and all villains are taken magically out of jail when a writer wants to use him/her that´s just how comics are since the 60´s.

[pkingdom]

Sabretooth seldom has been in prison and all villains are taken magically out of jail when a writer wants to use him/her that´s just how comics are since the 60´s.

There have been a lot of stories that end with him and others defeated and turned over to authorities. Them just magically out of jail is just part of comics. But it seems absurd to say that nobody has ever tried to put him and other in jail before.

[pkingdom]

Very well again what do you suggest?

Let Kurt and other X-men take power for not liking it when they lose a vote. Even if it could start a mutant civil war?

If they break the promise why other villains who agreed to come to Krakoa and have their crimes forgiven in exchange for obeying the laws of Krakoa would believe the X-men?

The only way to convict someone in Krakoa or anyone in a society is when they break the law by generating a sanction.

Apocalypse did not break any law.

Or are you saying that the X-men are above the Krakoa law? Or above the decisions of the board?

If I remember well Apocalypse was invited. He did not ask for or impose his will on strength when he came to Krakoa. Xavier and the others agreed to forgive their past and if that somehow turns against them in the future then it is their fault. But what kind of leaders would they be for their people if they did not respect their own laws or honor their word?

Can a nation survive divided or without laws having to be followed by everyone?

You're unintentionally highlighting how absurd it was to bring Apocalypse on board from the get-go. If all it takes for him to start a death cult is him saying 'well, its not TECHNICALLY illegal here, and enough government people OK'd it, so it's totally just and moral!' And saying everyone else has to respect the decision or else start a civil war again just makes it absurd they let him make decisions in the first place. And only the predictable number of people would even side with him! Letting him indoctrinate people just makes the threat of that kind of war even worse.

Oh, and Creed was thrown into Krakoa over a law that didn't exist at the time he broke it. So there's that, too.

[Lucyinthesky]

There have been a lot of stories that end with him and others defeated and turned over to authorities. Them just magically out of jail is just part of comics. But it seems absurd to say that nobody has ever tried to put him and other in jail before.

I don´t think I understand, I never say this. I just said that villains get out of jail all the time with no big explanation being given because "comics".


I personally think at least Shaw or Apocalypse would bolt once they discovered they have got little to no power on the new mutants land, maybe that was why they were given a little while the X-men hold the majority of the votes in the Quiet Coincil, as it should be given they are the ones who built and run krakoa.

As it´s they don´t really have much influence so they have both begin doing their own thing to get some, Apocalypse in Excalibur seems to have understood that the X-men don´t have to follow him at all and that he has to work to earn even a little trust while Shaw will do what he always does, plans behind shadows before he gets unceremoniosly defeated and send somewhere else.

[Knives]

You're unintentionally highlighting how absurd it was to bring Apocalypse on board from the get-go. If all it takes for him to start a death cult is him saying 'well, its not TECHNICALLY illegal here, and enough government people OK'd it, so it's totally just and moral!' And saying everyone else has to respect the decision or else start a civil war again just makes it absurd they let him make decisions in the first place. And only the predictable number of people would even side with him! Letting him indoctrinate people just makes the threat of that kind of war even worse.

Oh, and Creed was thrown into Krakoa over a law that didn't exist at the time he broke it. So there's that, too.

I understand then the X-men should get rid of all the villains even if they have done nothing against the laws of Krakoa even if it has a chance of causing civil war. Should the war between mutants and humans or AI happen they would lose again as they would not have the power of Apocalypse and Magneto and would no longer have Moira to reset and try again. Well congratulations you would keep your values ​​but you would have the death of an entire species on your back it doesn't seem like much what leaders of a nation should do but it sure looks like what heroes would do. After all Krakoa is exactly about heroism and not protecting mutants.

About Creed you are right the law was created after the act. However, this does not change the fact that he disobeyed orders and so he was used as an example for any villain if he tries to go beyond his obligations to Krakoa.

And that doesn't change the fact that humans have never done the same for mutants. Humans can kill as many mutants as they like and will never be arrested for it because there is no human law that protects mutants.

Krakoa on the other hand has a law that protects humans clearly showing how superior mutants are even though humanity has never shown the same kind of compassion for mutants.

[Kisinith]

You're unintentionally highlighting how absurd it was to bring Apocalypse on board from the get-go. If all it takes for him to start a death cult is him saying 'well, its not TECHNICALLY illegal here, and enough government people OK'd it, so it's totally just and moral!' And saying everyone else has to respect the decision or else start a civil war again just makes it absurd they let him make decisions in the first place. And only the predictable number of people would even side with him! Letting him indoctrinate people just makes the threat of that kind of war even worse.

Oh, and Creed was thrown into Krakoa over a law that didn't exist at the time he broke it. So there's that, too.

Well there is the problem you either don't or won't get one of the central story beats from HoX/PoX. Separated the mutants lose and die. The whole reason for Krakoa's existence is to try and get the mutant people unified to face a common, greater threat. That, by definition must include the villains, its not unity when you start leaving some out.
Like it or not, it makes perfect sense, it always has.
1.jpg

That last guy sitting on the right... possibly one of the worst people in History, probably worse than Apocalypse (outside of AoA). Valued member of the Allies, instrumental in stopping Hitler.

[anyajenkins]

Very well again what do you suggest?

Let Kurt and other X-men take power for not liking it when they lose a vote. Even if it could start a mutant civil war?

If they break the promise why other villains who agreed to come to Krakoa and have their crimes forgiven in exchange for obeying the laws of Krakoa would believe the X-men?

The only way to convict someone in Krakoa or anyone in a society is when they break the law by generating a sanction.

Apocalypse did not break any law.

Or are you saying that the X-men are above the Krakoa law? Or above the decisions of the board?

If I remember well Apocalypse was invited. He did not ask for or impose his will on strength when he came to Krakoa. Xavier and the others agreed to forgive their past and if that somehow turns against them in the future then it is their fault. But what kind of leaders would they be for their people if they did not respect their own laws or honor their word?

Can a nation survive divided or without laws having to be followed by everyone?

Well, same question, are you saying apocalypse will start a civil war if he’s not ‘allowed’ to beat people to death in the crucible? Why would fighting back on this one issue mean they are breaking their word/law to all the former villains? Most of Krakoa’s utopian characteristic don’t actually come the pack and cooperation with the villains, they come from ‘magic flowers.’ Magic flowers that make unlimited food, medicine, waste management, houses, computers and transportation (teleporting). The people they really need cooperation from are Krakoa and Doug.

[pkingdom]

Well there is the problem you either don't or won't get one of the central story beats from HoX/PoX. Separated the mutants lose and die. The whole reason for Krakoa's existence is to try and get the mutant people unified to face a common, greater threat. That, by definition must include the villains, its not unity when you start leaving some out.
Like it or not, it makes perfect sense, it always has.

I suppose that's right, I don't get it. Because time is nebulous and there have been tons of alt universes and futures, I never believed that Moira was right about mutants always losing. I can think of two futures where everything works out fine for everyone off the top of my head (Old Woman Laura and Ironman: Legacy). So for HoXPoX to say that the only way for mutants to 'win' and thrive is by giving concessions too, and outright enabling and supporting the goals of, Sinister and Apocalypse, I'm left baffled. No, this isn't the only way. Moira doesn't even know for certain this will work. She only tried the most extreme options once each. And Sinister being a part of 'mutants united' when he isn't a mutant and just spliced his genes with a dead X-men throws a wrench into the metaphor.

And if it is true that the only way mutants 'win' (however you are supposed to win race relations) is by working with and supporting Apocalypse and Sinister, maybe they shouldn't? You can't support and enable monsters like them without actively hurting tons of other people.

[Knives]

That last guy sitting on the right... possibly one of the worst people in History, probably worse than Apocalypse (outside of AoA). Valued member of the Allies, instrumental in stopping Hitler.

Sometimes you need to team up with people you don't like to achieve common goals like beating a common enemy or surviving a war. Ugly for sure but rational and practical .

At least some people understand that personal feelings or values are not above nations or survival.

Well, same question, are you saying apocalypse will start a civil war if he’s not ‘allowed’ to beat people to death in the crucible? Why would fighting back on this one issue mean they are breaking their word/law to all the former villains? Most of Krakoa’s utopian characteristic don’t actually come the pack and cooperation with the villains, they come from ‘magic flowers.’ Magic flowers that make unlimited food, medicine, waste management, houses, computers and transportation (teleporting). The people they really need cooperation from are Krakoa and Doug.

Considering that Apocalypse won the vote he doesn't need to do anything, the risk is all on the side of the X-men and he would reap the benefits whatever the result. That is how politics works he would only need to show the X-men hypocrisy before the people of Krakoa and that would end up weakening Xavier's side and the others on the board.

On the other hand, if he had lost in the vote he would probably accept the decision like the rule not to kill humans. For whatever the end game of Apocalypse he needs to gain the trust of the people of Krakoa and work together with Xavier and the X-men for the necessary time. He would not risk a civil war if he were the loser of the vote as his position would be weakened before the people of Krakoa and he would risk losing his position on the council. It would be much more practical for him to wait for another opportunity to win a majority and continue with his agenda.

Not to mention that if the option of the ritual were denied, the X-men and the council would have an unsolved problem in their hands so he had everything in his favor and that is why he won.

[Psy-lock]

Oh lol, "Crucible is mutant culture". It has nothing to do with culture, honey buns. It's a law proposed by a supervillain and then voted on by a group of corrupt politicians (half of which are also supervillains). Ffs, this way we can excuse any deplorable law in human history by saying "well, it's culture".