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  1. #1201
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Why would they rebel against Krakoa? To go back in the real world to get stepped on by Sentinels.
    "Cable was right!"

  2. #1202
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Why would they rebel against Krakoa? To go back in the real world to get stepped on by Sentinels.
    Actually, what is the Sentinel situation now after that Master Mold satellite got blowed up? I know Doom has his own, but beyond that?

  3. #1203
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Controlled not to rebel against Krakoa =/= Stopping everyone from fighting eachother.
    Masque and Sugar Man aren't on Krakoa anymore. Feels like bad faith to say that because characters are working together in a status quo you don't like that they must be mind-controlled. They obviously aren't yet the theory keeps popping up from people who coincidentally don't like Krakoa.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Actually, what is the Sentinel situation now after that Master Mold satellite got blowed up? I know Doom has his own, but beyond that?
    ORCHIS is building a city of Sentinels on Mercury. The evil nazi sympathizer scientist is also building NIMROD to bring her dead terrorist husband.

  4. #1204
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Got it, thanks.

  5. #1205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Masque and Sugar Man aren't on Krakoa anymore. Feels like bad faith to say that because characters are working together in a status quo you don't like that they must be mind-controlled. They obviously aren't yet the theory keeps popping up from people who coincidentally don't like Krakoa.
    Did you know Xavier signed off on what Apocalypse is doing in Excalibur? If Xavier is compromised, and he's shown routinely using his telepathy far more than he used when taking to people, brainwashing is on the table. Krakoa has its good and bad sides, and the bad sides deserve a though rebuking. Hickman's been setting off alarm bells that something's off from the beginning. Xavier's unrecognisable these days, he's become Magneto 2.0.



    ORCHIS is building a city of Sentinels on Mercury. The evil nazi sympathizer scientist is also building NIMROD to bring her dead terrorist husband.
    The X-men are ok working with their own Nazi sympathisers: Mr. Sinister and Sebastian Shaw's made Sentinels before.

  6. #1206
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Did you know Xavier signed off on what Apocalypse is doing in Excalibur? If Xavier is compromised, and he's shown routinely using his telepathy far more than he used when taking to people, brainwashing is on the table. Krakoa has its good and bad sides, and the bad sides deserve a though rebuking. Hickman's been setting off alarm bells that something's off from the beginning. Xavier's unrecognisable these days, he's become Magneto 2.0.
    You talking about removing Morgan Le Fay from power to rightfully put a Braddock on the throne? Cause I don't know what dastardly thing [A] is doing that Xavier sanctioned off on. Xavier's done worse for worse reasons, we know that the game now is mutant community to survive. He isn't Silver Age Magneto or anywhere close to being him, he's just stopped getting shitted on by people who want to kill him. But you're probably going to continue to have this warped view of what's going on despite Hickman and the books themselves contradicting every nonsensical Krakoa theory so far.

    The X-men are ok working with their own Nazi sympathisers: Mr. Sinister and Sebastian Shaw's made Sentinels before.
    mutant Sinister =/= nazi Sinister

    I'm standing by it.

    ORCHIS making a city of Sentinels on another planet to destroy Krakoa =/= Shaw funding Sentinels

  7. #1207
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    Why are people so eager to return to doom , gloom and endless night ?

    Is it really too much to ask for uplifting stories ?

    In these current dark and difficult days , do we really need more misery and depression ?
    No one worth listening to is asking for more needless negativity. Though I strongly suspect the overdone use of genocides, sentinels, anti-mutant terrorist organizations and such are largely due to a result of writers attempting to one up Claremont by doing something that rivals Days of Future Past, rather than, if anything, writing the X-Men with a meaningful, thought-provoking examination of the relationship between mutants and humans in the similar spirit of how many say that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby based the idea of the X-Men directly on civil rights, as opposed to having doom and gloom stomp on the mutants hard and painfully very frequently. Then again, even real life civil rights in America resulted in considerable positives lasting into the present day in spite of the atrocities done to black people, or even so, am I just ignoring the negatives too much?

  8. #1208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    You talking about removing Morgan Le Fay from power to rightfully put a Braddock on the throne? Cause I don't know what dastardly thing [A] is doing that Xavier sanctioned off on. Xavier's done worse for worse reasons, we know that the game now is mutant community to survive. He isn't Silver Age Magneto or anywhere close to being him, he's just stopped getting shitted on by people who want to kill him. But you're probably going to continue to have this warped view of what's going on despite Hickman and the books themselves contradicting every nonsensical Krakoa theory so far.
    So much to unpack here. Colonialism is bad regardless of who does it, and right now Krakoa is a colonialist state thanks to signing off on Apocalypse. Morgan le Faye is bad, that didn't make Jaime Braddock (the man who Apocalypse chose to put on the throne) or Apocalypse "good." Do you endorse him dissecting Morgan alive as a means to make his magic branch? What about him letting Rogue getting put into a "magic coffin" and manipulating her into killing him? Apocalypse in Excalibur isn't making things up on the fly all he's doing is activating millenia old schemes and he's not shy about admitting it. He may be friendlier then he used to be but he still holds to his old values and everyone else are expendable pawns.

    Magneto didn't stop being a mutant terrorist after the Silver Age. I wouldn't call murder and enslavement a proper response to "getting shit on." He fought the X-men for years based on this disagreement. He's been trying to kill humans since WWII. Post-Krakoa his god complex remains in tact, see X-men #4 with his speech with the ambassadors. He shifted too soft power, but he means to keep humans at the bottom of the social order. Hickman and co. have been very overt in presenting where things will go from day one and while we don't have all the answers yet Krakoa is not a utopia. The cracks are showing, even in the honeymoon period. "Mutants always lose."


    mutant Sinister =/= nazi Sinister

    I'm standing by it.

    ORCHIS making a city of Sentinels on another planet to destroy Krakoa =/= Shaw funding Sentinels
    It's not bad when we do it isn't a compelling defense. I'd have thought Shaw participating in something made to kill mutants would have been something we'd agree on, but as long s he's a mutant that's all under the bridge.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 03-25-2020 at 09:40 PM.

  9. #1209
    Incredible Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Masque and Sugar Man aren't on Krakoa anymore. Feels like bad faith to say that because characters are working together in a status quo you don't like that they must be mind-controlled. They obviously aren't yet the theory keeps popping up from people who coincidentally don't like Krakoa.
    And that's just wrong.
    There's been too many shifts in personality, too many people acting off on many levels, and the whole cult-like atmosphere to say that there's not something unsavory going on. And considering that Xavier and Krakoa are in play, telepathic and chemical manipulation are the most likely options. Just because you like Krakoa doesn't mean there isn't something wrong going on.

  10. #1210
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    I don't really get the whole "Rightfully put a Braddock on the throne" thing. The Braddocks have no claim to Otherworld. They are not nor ever have been relatives of the Pendragons nor Merlyn. Their father was from there, but that doesn't really give them any claim to rule.

    Like Apocalypse and Excalibur absolutely are the aggressors in Otherworld, whether it's for good reason or not.

  11. #1211
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Controlled not to rebel against Krakoa =/= Stopping everyone from fighting eachother.
    that is some nuanced AF mind control to continually be exerting over tens of thousands of mutants some of which got some pretty impressive mental blocks
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Xavier's unrecognisable these days, he's become Magneto 2.0.

    The X-men are ok working with their own Nazi sympathisers: Mr. Sinister and Sebastian Shaw's made Sentinels before.
    killin it with the Hyperbole aint ya?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Xavier approved of Apocalypse putting Rogue into a magic coffin (that's she killed him over!), starting a new magic system and conquering the universe.
    Er..didnt it save her?
    Soooo How is "starting a new magic system" bad?
    When did he conquer the universe? What issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    And that's just wrong.
    There's been too many shifts in personality, too many people acting off on many levels, and the whole cult-like atmosphere to say that there's not something unsavory going on. And considering that Xavier and Krakoa are in play, telepathic and chemical manipulation are the most likely options. Just because you like Krakoa doesn't mean there isn't something wrong going on.
    Examples of such shifts? The Acting off? Cult atmosphere? You mean the general 'good vibes' attitudes of everyone? Don't ever go to a Festival...dont think you'd enjoy it.
    Just because you DON'T like KraKoa doesn't mean there is an overall ominous plot going on
    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    I don't really get the whole "Rightfully put a Braddock on the throne" thing. The Braddocks have no claim to Otherworld. They are not nor ever have been relatives of the Pendragons nor Merlyn. Their father was from there, but that doesn't really give them any claim to rule.

    Are you joking? lol
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    that is some nuanced AF mind control to continually be exerting over tens of thousands of mutants some of which got some pretty impressive mental blocks
    It's not like they're on a sentient location that is a powerful mutant or that there are numerous powerful telepaths on the island. Take Xavier, you take them all.

    killin it with the Hyperbole aint ya?
    Er..didnt it save her?
    Soooo How is "starting a new magic system" bad?
    You don't read Excalibur, do you?

    He put Rogue in danger in the first place for a gambit, he didn't warn her of the consequences of touching the gate and didn't say anything until well after they learnt the consequences. The only reason this occurred was because he convinced Excalibur to open the gate, which was a millenia old plan of his. This is why Excalibur were angry with him, so much they got into physical confrontations with him.

    Omitting the fact how he's doing it is dissecting a living being who is a conscious humanoid. I hardly expect you to act like it's all good had another nation done that to Xavier if they conquered Krakoa. Or how he had to be talked out of killing defenseless puppies by Betsy for ingredients for his ritual. You must not be so fond of this if you're refusing to admit it happened.

    And how Krakoa went full colonist, they conquered that dimension and put their own puppet king in it.

    When did he conquer the universe? What issue?
    Do you know what the Scarlet Citadel is or how connected it is to the Marvel universe? What do you think he's going to do once he gets there?


    Examples of such shifts? The Acting off? Cult atmosphere? You mean the general 'good vibes' attitudes of everyone? Don't ever go to a Festival...dont think you'd enjoy it.
    Just because you DON'T like KraKoa doesn't mean there is an overall ominous plot going on
    Don't conflate complaints about Krakoa being cultist with the festivals, that's disingenuous. The villains are the least affected by Krakoa, most of them are acting in character. Though Emma is getting more villainous the longer she stays there, she never used to be ok with calling human "monkeys" but now she is. House of X #3:

    Emma:"Well, what do we have here?"

    Esme:" It looks to me like the monkeys are are using tools again, Ms.Frost -- playing at civilisation."

    Emma:"Young lady, how many times do I have I told you to only use our mutant names in public, so I insist you call me White Queen."

    Esme:"Yes, mum."

    Xavier's worse then she is, since there's still some goodness in her and her being on the dark side isn't completely out of character. You could replace Xavier with Magneto and not miss a beat.


    Are you joking? lol
    Correct, the puppet king of Apocalypse is a successor to the Otherworld throne.

  13. #1213
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Its either something like that or mind control...
    Or just bad writing to have personalities shift like that.
    My favourite theory remains 'I don't care' attitude.
    Hickman seems less interested by the X-men and more by the idea of X-men.

  14. #1214
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think we have people who are too far in both extremes on a lot of this. I feel there is something sinister underneath a lot of this (and not just the pale guy in the underground lab), but on the other hand a lot of posters concentrate on that part and aren't willing to take a look at how things might seem on behalf of those going through it.

    For example, the crucible is brutal, but also offers people who have lost a literal part of themselves a chance to become whole again. And the 'regular joe' mutant (as much as one CAN be a regular joe) has what looks like proof that death in it is merely a momentary inconvenience, it might not come across as anything worse than the hazing one gets in the military or a school sports team, or, depending on what they remember going through, not even that bad as the crucible is over quickly.

    Then you have people like Scott and Kurt questioning what's underneath it all, making the reader ask questions and setting up a slow burn. I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line Scott (and probably others) is going to go rogue - there are only two real storylines for a 'true believer' - the first is what do they do when they lose faith, the second (and much darker) is what are they willing to do in order to deny anything that makes them question that faith? I'm pretty sure Scott is being set up to take the first path, and I wonder if anyone is being set up to take the second - it would make for a thematic villain for the arc if anyone was.
    If we go by their interaction in XMen #1, Polaris could be your 2nd but clearly they aren't taking her that direction (sadly, I feel it would've been compelling)

    I agree with you, I think firmly there are "off kilter" aspects to Krakoa. But at the same time the critics are waaaaay too simplistic and are wanting throw the baby out with the bathwater too much. Like we have people say Magneto is always a villain GIVE ME A BREAK. At that point I don't take a person seriously anymore
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  15. #1215
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    If we go by their interaction in XMen #1, Polaris could be your 2nd but clearly they aren't taking her that direction (sadly, I feel it would've been compelling)

    I agree with you, I think firmly there are "off kilter" aspects to Krakoa. But at the same time the critics are waaaaay too simplistic and are wanting throw the baby out with the bathwater too much. Like we have people say Magneto is always a villain GIVE ME A BREAK. At that point I don't take a person seriously anymore
    Magneto had made face-heel turns though the years, briefly, but he's not Cornell West. That's who's he's been compared to, as though after the 60's he became a prominent professor at Harvard rather than someone who did many serious terrorist acts and never stopped thinking about humans like insects.

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