Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Rosebunse]

I fully suspect that the conclusion to Hickman's run won't be that any more. Though I do think it'll come after all the excrement hits the rotating metal blade circulating air in a room. A lot of the current status quo will probably be gone (miracle drugs, resurrection, the current Quiet council) as others have said, but that in itself would lead to interesting stories. I think stuff like Children of the Atom is a hint of things to come. Where enough humans are okay with Krakoa and mutants being around that they help stop a Sentinel assault that would otherwise exterminate mutantkind. Basically, Charles will be vindicated. But we're not there yet, and this journey looks like it's going to be a fun one.

You know what? Wouldn't it just be fun if all of the MU was just OK with mutants for a few years? Just a happy ending in some way, even if it doesn't last.

[NewMutant]

Like did people forget the crappy years of dumb writing we literally escaped???

This was the same forum that was always moaning and complaining every week before HoXPox started. I still remember the constant complaints during Death of X, Inhumans crap and the hilarious Gold threads.

its impressive peps can go trough 3 years of bendis+ 1 year of inhumans + 2 ish of gold and when we get out of the woods, they are like.
"you know what, i kinda liked it back there"
stockholme syndrome luv, absolute madness

Nostalgia is a huge problem; and yet a selling point in mainstream comics. We haven't had a quality flagship since Whedon IMO (and even that was a more classical approach); and that was plagued by delays - though Carey and a few other writers made the supporting titles stellar enough to carry the franchise. Bendis tried to do something different, however the concept of the 05 is not direction and it went on WAY too long.

[yogaflame]

I don't care what anyone says, I loved Aaron's take on the school.

Also, isn't Krakoa just Genosha?

I hated it. I don't like the whole idea of the massive school with the X-Men as teachers. Only Morrison pulled it off well, and only just barely. The fact that it all stems from Singer's Fox-Men makes it even more unpalatable.

Krakoa is following in the footsteps of Magneto's 90's Genosha as a 'mutant homeland', but no, the original story of Genosha was one of the humans engineering mutants as a slave force. It was fascinating and provocative, and their reaction to Storm's team's meddling in their affairs with X-Tinction Agenda was great. Post-Claremont Genosha was a quagmire, and then by the time Magneto took over, a few mini series and the foolishness that was Eve of Destruction later, it was disposed of for a rather cheap, but well timed(can't believe it preceded 9/11 by mere weeks) start to Morrison's run.

What I still want to know, what still makes zero sense, is how did the X-Men throw Krakoa into space in 1975, but somehow there's another Krakoa and it has thousands of years of weird history when OG Krakoa was only made conscious/a mutant by nuclear testing in the post WW2 era? It's a sticking point that I can't quite let go, despite being intrigued by what Hickman is doing.

[Rosebunse]

I hated it. I don't like the whole idea of the massive school with the X-Men as teachers. Only Morrison pulled it off well, and only just barely. The fact that it all stems from Singer's Fox-Men makes it even more unpalatable.

Krakoa is following in the footsteps of Magneto's 90's Genosha as a 'mutant homeland', but no, the original story of Genosha was one of the humans engineering mutants as a slave force. It was fascinating and provocative, and their reaction to Storm's team's meddling in their affairs with X-Tinction Agenda was great. Post-Claremont Genosha was a quagmire, and then by the time Magneto took over, a few mini series and the foolishness that was Eve of Destruction later, it was disposed of for a rather cheap, but well timed(can't believe it preceded 9/11 by mere weeks) start to Morrison's run.

What I still want to know, what still makes zero sense, is how did the X-Men throw Krakoa into space in 1975, but somehow there's another Krakoa and it has thousands of years of weird history when OG Krakoa was only made conscious/a mutant by nuclear testing in the post WW2 era? It's a sticking point that I can't quite let go, despite being intrigued by what Hickman is doing.

Because comics? Incursions? Franklin Richards? Celestrials?

But I loved Aaron's take because it was just fun and silly. It was just sort of peaceful.

[RachelGrey]

Think they want the whole Thing. M-Day and M-Pox combinied with a little Stryker and Sentinel added. Not to forget that every hero will get on their bad side and hunt mutants.
"God love, Man kills 2: Now they really mean it"

And to think that Bendis managed to end on a positive note. But than came M-Pox

Yeah, I think what some people want is for it to be the mutants on the run from everyone. We get an Avengers team who are tasked to hunt and kill mutants! Tony Stark becomes the lead architect of the new Sentinels and the upgraded Nimrod, so that they can kill and exterminate all mutants on Earth! The remaining mutants are down to around 10 and they live in a basement of a bar and can't even go out without immediately being hunted down and brutally killed!

I get it, people hate that mutants are living on an island to escape the world wide genocide of mutant kind! So the only good way for the X-men is to live in a bunker somewhere in the US and every time they step outside the Sentinels, O.N.E., US Government, Project Wideawake, Weapon X, Avengers, Fantastic Four, and every other hero and villain on Earth is trying to kill them!

Uncanny X-Men under Rosenberg is the end of the story, if people didn't already get that! After all the years of prejudice, hate, and genocide the mutants are dying and very few remain! They are being picked off one by one and soon they will all be dead!

I get that people are purists and want to go back to the 1960's run when everyone was a generic archetype, the heroes were heroes, the villains were villains, and that's it. The X-Men were 5 kids striving to save people who hate and fear them! People didn't know who they were, they could pass as human in public, people didn't know where they lived! That story only works if there are very few mutants! But once you have thousands or millions of mutants, and they are being persecuted and hunted down for extermination world wide, then it becomes a bigger story!

Do those 5 kids hide in that mansion and ignore the plight of the millions who are being hunted and killed in the genocide?
Or do you leave the safety of your mansion and fight to save your own people from the genocide?

Marvel already did the story where they reduced the mutant population to 198, and then proceeded to show the brutal truth of human racism toward mutants because all the racists were just waiting for the moment when the mutants were so diminished so they could then kill the remainder with little or no trouble!

Unless you take the Marvel Universe back to the 1960's and make it so mutants are practically unknown by humans you can't actually tell stories where they protect and save humans from bad mutants!

Because who are the bad mutants?
Some of them are outright villains like Shaw, Selene, Emplate, Sinister, etc...
Some of them are freedom fighters like Magneto, Mystique, Destiny, Pyro, Avalanche, Exodus, Amelia Voight, Frenzy, etc...
Some are like Emma Frost who believe they can use the human business world as a way to pressure or force the government and politicians for mutant rights!

One person's terrorist is another person's hero! Magneto located detention facilities in the United States and freed the mutants who were being held illegally by the US Government!
Emma Frost used her corporate funds to build schools with a pro-mutant admission policy!

They only way you can go back to the X-Men living in a mansion is if no one knows where they live! But what about the rest of the mutants in the world? A million mutants aren't going to fit in a mansion! I guess they just get abandoned by the X-Men, because it's obviously way more important to defend the humans against those dirty disgusting mutants who don't have a right to exist! Who cares if a few million mutants are killed by Sentinels, as long as the X-men keep living in their mansion and defending and protecting the "good humans"!

Every time this conversation comes up I keep asking what people expect exactly? Do we just retcon everything back to the 1960's and pretend the entire history of the Marvel Earth didn't happen? Humans have been trying to exterminate or enslave mutant kind since the 1970's in Marvel Comics!

Days of Future Past came out in 1981 and predicted that the humans would exterminate all the mutants. The last few survivors of the mutant genocide tried to alter the past in the hopes that it would save everyone! Even then there was no guarantee that the horrible future had been prevented!

That is 1981 to 2020, you need to erase all those years to set the clock back on prejudice against mutants!

How many mutants are allowed to exist in this retcon marvel universe?

If you have too many, conflict between humans and mutants is inevitable!

So how many is too many? Is 198 too many? Is 100 too many? Is 50 too many? Is 25 too many? Is 10 too many?

Once you are less than 10 mutants total on the entire Earth that's pretty much telling the story of the Fantastic Four, because honestly with that few no one would even know what a mutant is!

[RachelGrey]

I think it's wild that people here are equating thinking there's something fishy going on with not liking the current status quo. I like it BECAUSE there's obviously something weird going on. It makes me curious about what's going on that we don't know, and yeah, I think the downfall of Moira would be a very interesting story. Hickman even said as much that they are intentionally writing it so there can be multiple perceived opinions of the situation mutants are in. I think they are mostly behaving like an almost terrifying cult; I also think that's a story worth reading about.

See, I can agree with this! The current Dawn of X could end with Charles, Erik, and Moira losing control of Krakoa! Instead a Democratic Krakoa rises from the ashes with Allison Blair as president! The new Krakoan government strives to settle down any ongoing conflicts world wide and stabilize relations with as many nations as they can!

Just because Charles, Erik, and Moria may end up losing power eventually doesn't mean Krakoa has to collapse! I for one do believe that there will be a civil war at some point and some people will support Charles, Erik, and Moira, and the other side will support Storm, Jean, and Emma! Because I will predict right now if there is a civil war, Storm will probably be the one that instigates the rebellion, and Jean and Emma will both join Storm's side!

[JB]

You know what? Wouldn't it just be fun if all of the MU was just OK with mutants for a few years? Just a happy ending in some way, even if it doesn't last.

I'd be happy with this, or at least a world where the good humans and human heroes now also help protect mutants as they would the rest of the world. Writers would be forced to write bigger stories than just mutants running and hiding, like what we're seeing now.

What I still want to know, what still makes zero sense, is how did the X-Men throw Krakoa into space in 1975, but somehow there's another Krakoa and it has thousands of years of weird history when OG Krakoa was only made conscious/a mutant by nuclear testing in the post WW2 era? It's a sticking point that I can't quite let go, despite being intrigued by what Hickman is doing.

It could be nothing but there is that X-Factor variant cover with Lorna towering over Krakoa with outer space in the background. Maybe she somehow brought it back. As for the other stuff though, I dunno.

RachelGrey, your posts are always a delight to read. Insightful stuff as always.

[TheRealWashout]

See, I can agree with this! The current Dawn of X could end with Charles, Erik, and Moira losing control of Krakoa! Instead a Democratic Krakoa rises from the ashes with Allison Blair as president! The new Krakoan government strives to settle down any ongoing conflicts world wide and stabilize relations with as many nations as they can!

Just because Charles, Erik, and Moria may end up losing power eventually doesn't mean Krakoa has to collapse! I for one do believe that there will be a civil war at some point and some people will support Charles, Erik, and Moira, and the other side will support Storm, Jean, and Emma! Because I will predict right now if there is a civil war, Storm will probably be the one that instigates the rebellion, and Jean and Emma will both join Storm's side!

I'm envisioning some excellent election data pages.

[Nigel909]

Yeah, I think what some people want is for it to be the mutants on the run from everyone. We get an Avengers team who are tasked to hunt and kill mutants! Tony Stark becomes the lead architect of the new Sentinels and the upgraded Nimrod, so that they can kill and exterminate all mutants on Earth! The remaining mutants are down to around 10 and they live in a basement of a bar and can't even go out without immediately being hunted down and brutally killed!

I get it, people hate that mutants are living on an island to escape the world wide genocide of mutant kind! So the only good way for the X-men is to live in a bunker somewhere in the US and every time they step outside the Sentinels, O.N.E., US Government, Project Wideawake, Weapon X, Avengers, Fantastic Four, and every other hero and villain on Earth is trying to kill them!

Uncanny X-Men under Rosenberg is the end of the story, if people didn't already get that! After all the years of prejudice, hate, and genocide the mutants are dying and very few remain! They are being picked off one by one and soon they will all be dead!

I get that people are purists and want to go back to the 1960's run when everyone was a generic archetype, the heroes were heroes, the villains were villains, and that's it. The X-Men were 5 kids striving to save people who hate and fear them! People didn't know who they were, they could pass as human in public, people didn't know where they lived! That story only works if there are very few mutants! But once you have thousands or millions of mutants, and they are being persecuted and hunted down for extermination world wide, then it becomes a bigger story!

Do those 5 kids hide in that mansion and ignore the plight of the millions who are being hunted and killed in the genocide?
Or do you leave the safety of your mansion and fight to save your own people from the genocide?

Marvel already did the story where they reduced the mutant population to 198, and then proceeded to show the brutal truth of human racism toward mutants because all the racists were just waiting for the moment when the mutants were so diminished so they could then kill the remainder with little or no trouble!

Unless you take the Marvel Universe back to the 1960's and make it so mutants are practically unknown by humans you can't actually tell stories where they protect and save humans from bad mutants!

Because who are the bad mutants?
Some of them are outright villains like Shaw, Selene, Emplate, Sinister, etc...
Some of them are freedom fighters like Magneto, Mystique, Destiny, Pyro, Avalanche, Exodus, Amelia Voight, Frenzy, etc...
Some are like Emma Frost who believe they can use the human business world as a way to pressure or force the government and politicians for mutant rights!

One person's terrorist is another person's hero! Magneto located detention facilities in the United States and freed the mutants who were being held illegally by the US Government!
Emma Frost used her corporate funds to build schools with a pro-mutant admission policy!

They only way you can go back to the X-Men living in a mansion is if no one knows where they live! But what about the rest of the mutants in the world? A million mutants aren't going to fit in a mansion! I guess they just get abandoned by the X-Men, because it's obviously way more important to defend the humans against those dirty disgusting mutants who don't have a right to exist! Who cares if a few million mutants are killed by Sentinels, as long as the X-men keep living in their mansion and defending and protecting the "good humans"!

Every time this conversation comes up I keep asking what people expect exactly? Do we just retcon everything back to the 1960's and pretend the entire history of the Marvel Earth didn't happen? Humans have been trying to exterminate or enslave mutant kind since the 1970's in Marvel Comics!

Days of Future Past came out in 1981 and predicted that the humans would exterminate all the mutants. The last few survivors of the mutant genocide tried to alter the past in the hopes that it would save everyone! Even then there was no guarantee that the horrible future had been prevented!

That is 1981 to 2020, you need to erase all those years to set the clock back on prejudice against mutants!

How many mutants are allowed to exist in this retcon marvel universe?

If you have too many, conflict between humans and mutants is inevitable!

So how many is too many? Is 198 too many? Is 100 too many? Is 50 too many? Is 25 too many? Is 10 too many?

Once you are less than 10 mutants total on the entire Earth that's pretty much telling the story of the Fantastic Four, because honestly with that few no one would even know what a mutant is!

Yes, absolutely ,totally 100% right !

[Zelena]

I'd be happy with this, or at least a world where the good humans and human heroes now also help protect mutants as they would the rest of the world. Writers would be forced to write bigger stories than just mutants running and hiding, like what we're seeing now.

A peaceful statu quo between mutants and humans? It would have to be believable…
Personally, as long as the mutants stay on their island and mind their own business, I really don't know why it would cause a problem to the humans…
It is a bit far-fetched and contrived why it would be the case.

I don't say the humans wouldn't be wary but they have other fish to fry… as we can see everyday on the media.

[Devaishwarya]

Besides the necessity of "story-telling purpose"...When it comes to the current "mutant condition" some stupid, ignorant humans are always quite easily triggered, it would seem (Sue Richards for example). Which isn't very different from certain members/sections of our real world communities when you think on it.

At what point do the detractors just give up trying to manifest through divine intervention and/or obeah the change(s) they want implemented, knowing fully well that, rant, riot and rage all they want the narrative is entirely out of their hands?

[Dev]

We finally have a new status quo, that is fresh and full of stories that could keep us on the edge of our seat for the next two decades and people are already thinking of the end of this era. Will it be interesting to see “the end “ of this ? Sure, but why think about that now , when the new x-men comic isn’t even to issue 7 !!!!! I For one Don’t want to go back to the mansion ever, in fact the x-men should make their lands even bigger and somehow expand the nation of Krakoa to some peace of land on one of the mainlands of either Africa or maybe South America. Making the current situation distinctively different then Genosha !

[Vegan Daddy]

Destiny come thru

[Rev9]

See, I can agree with this! The current Dawn of X could end with Charles, Erik, and Moira losing control of Krakoa! Instead a Democratic Krakoa rises from the ashes with Allison Blair as president! The new Krakoan government strives to settle down any ongoing conflicts world wide and stabilize relations with as many nations as they can!

Just because Charles, Erik, and Moria may end up losing power eventually doesn't mean Krakoa has to collapse! I for one do believe that there will be a civil war at some point and some people will support Charles, Erik, and Moira, and the other side will support Storm, Jean, and Emma! Because I will predict right now if there is a civil war, Storm will probably be the one that instigates the rebellion, and Jean and Emma will both join Storm's side!

After your lengthy breakdown. What could be done is an Age of Apocalypse story in reverse. It may have to be an elsewords type story.In a dystopian world for humanity.In it Krakoa has conquered the world, mutants and everyone allied to them are living through the cloning and cerebro technology. Humans are hunted by mutants for sport. A band of human remnants allied with mutant rebels like Leech, or a precog like Blindfold fearing for her life due to anti pre cog laws always keeps the humans surviving.You could even say they've allied themselves with a handful of the children of the Vault who are themselves chased by children killing machines created by Forge not too different from furies created by MMJ. Maybe the majority of humans have been evacuated by Franklin into a pocket universe where there are no mutants and that is where this rag tag bunch of rebels want to flee to in a Matrix style escape through some ghost box. Or maybe say they want to contact Darwin who also is like the most wanted individual on earth wanted by Krakoa as he has weakened Krakoa by killing Elixir and Tempus of the 5.

For me it would be fun, they can do it by narrating it as 100 years into the future of life 10(this current story) after allowing for a reboot of Moira in life 11

Sure it may be dark and dystopian but it could be a re-telling of Age of Apocalypse in a new way.

[ARkadelphia]

Besides the necessity of "story-telling purpose"...When it comes to the current "mutant condition" some stupid, ignorant humans are always quite easily triggered, it would seem (Sue Richards for example). Which isn't very different from certain members/sections of our real world communities when you think on it.

Like the people posting in this thread for example?