Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Tycon]

Like I said, its already been covered. Go look it back up yourself.

Go back over 80 something pages rather than just quickly list them out? No thanks. As far as I know, it is either this, suicide (which Crucible exists to prevent), and whatever Prodigy did. If there were other ways they would’ve been addressed.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Go back over 80 something pages rather than just quickly list them out? No thanks. As far as I know, it is either this, suicide (which Crucible exists to prevent), and whatever Prodigy did. If there were other ways they would’ve been addressed.

Why don't we know the other options? For something like the Crucible that's a big step missing from the narrative. Unless it didn't happen and we're meant to take away from it that the government are wrong and behaving very strangely.

[Tycon]

Why don't we know the other options?

You mean the made up options you’ve convinced yourself exists?

[jonincentex]

Nope. Don't try to turn this into a western culture superiority thing. That's not going to fly. I'm speaking about how fanatical and blood thirsty (note: I never used "barbaric") some characters have become. These are characters that I've known and felt deeply connected to for many, many years. it just doesn't jibe with how these characters have been presented for years. They cheer on the brutal attack of Aero by Apocalypse?! Storm (one of the most just and sensible character in existence) leads them in a cult-like chant as members are reborn to the community?! They laugh and encourage Daken to stab himself in the head for mere entertainment?! The benevolence and nobility that were at their core seems to be gone. Now, if this is all part of an overarching storyline, i will be ecstatic because that would be new and very interesting! (A slow burner of subtle corruption being masterfully woven into the story ala what Wolfman and Perez did with Raven in The New Teen Titans - awesome!) However, until that is revealed to be the case, I'm a bit worried that these "heroes" aren't being as aspirational anymore. I miss some oof the humanity that was these mutants' strongest attribute.

Considering that virtually ALL (save for apocalypse) mutants that appear and the council of 12 are FROM the West, it is utterly absurd to speak of Krakoa as anything but another example of Western culture. Practically all interactions occur between mutants who were born and raised in the West. Being a mutant doesn't come with some sort of culture separate from where they were raised. They all act like Westerners. All the major players have classic Western attitudes.

To assume otherwise is wishful thinking.

Every element we see in the comic refers to something we see in Western culture. The krakoa club scene was the kind you'd ONLY EVER SEE in a Western nation. Nowhere else in the world do women mix so freely with men. Even Asian nations like China are not that tolerant of women mixing freely with men. When it comes to relations between males and females Krakoa is 100% in the Western camp.

It's even more insulting to describe Krakoa as an example of any culture outside of Western culture, thanks to the crucible. No culture in the world has anything like that ritual. No culture in the world ritualizes murder for whatever reason.

If the crucible is a reflection of any culture, it reflects Western values as we regularly see in our fiction, games Etc. It has to be simply because the main writer is an American. It is a rare writer indeed who can write accurately about the fundamentals of another culture when they try to, and Hickman isn't even trying. He is writing Krakoa as simply another Western nation albeit populated by mutants.

[H-E-D]

If you think Japan and Korea don’t have clubs I have some news for you

[Steel Inquisitor]

You mean the made up options you’ve convinced yourself exists?

Everything in comics is made up, questioning how they got there is a logical reaction. Look beyond what happens on the page, and be curious about how Krakoa governs. It's unnerving how you're trying to shut down anyone questioning the Crucible. Especially on things which we don't know all the details about how they came about. I'm curious how you think the process was for how Apocalypse got the Crucible into law.

[BroHomo]

Everything in comics is made up, questioning how they got there is a logical reaction. Look beyond what happens on the page, and be curious about how Krakoa governs. It's unnerving how you're trying to shut down anyone questioning the Crucible. Especially on things which we don't know all the details about how they came about. I'm curious how you think the process was for how Apocalypse got the Crucible into law.

there was a vote.

[Steel Inquisitor]

there was a vote.

There's more to how laws get made then simply voting, including on Krakoa. That's the final part of the process, what about the rest? We saw this spelt out when they made the Three Laws. Do you honestly believe not a single person on the Council had an opinion on other options to that subject?

[AbnormallyNormal]

Gonna paste three things since Crucible keeps being discussed with people seemingly not remembering or acknowledging past comments about it:

https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...mortal-xombat/
“ Crucible is an act of ritual combat in which a depowered mutant will fight Apocalypse to the death so that they can be reborn – and that’s exactly what happens when Melody, clad in an X-Men training uniform and a flower crown like a sacrificial maiden, steps into the arena. It’s violent. It’s brutal. It’s tough to read. But here’s the brilliant thing – it never feels like a defeat. It’s a victory.

Crucible is a ritual of choice. That choice is immediately offered to Melody; her sister Husk stresses that Crucible will happen only “If you want it.” And during combat with Apocalypse, she’s offered an exit and healing, but she refuses. Rather than accept victimhood, she overturns it – she can’t pick up a sword and fight Scarlet Witch or the human bigots that would kill her, but she can fight Apocalypse, whose particular brand of pompous negging takes the form of any self-doubts and self-recriminations Melody has had since she was depowered. Leinil Francis Yu, returning to regular art duties after being away for two issues, does fantastic work during this fight scene; it looks like it hurts, with Melody alternating taking Apocalypse’s blows like a broken doll and standing up, fists raised, bloody but unbowed. She’s fighting for herself, her true self, and she will no longer be depowered or diminished in man’s world. Why is she here, Apocalypse asks? “To fight and die for my people. Like a mutant.” But death for mutants doesn’t necessarily mean what it used to. Melody isn’t choosing the abyss, but survival.”


Storm and the nation of Krakoa are celebrating her friends returning back to life after sacrificing themselves to stop the destruction of all they’ve built. Nothing cult-y about that at all. They’re literally coming back to life.

Beautifully worded, this person understood the issue and the concept involved. The brutality *is part of the purpose of regeneration and a way to reclaim your identity*.

I think we are supposed to be somewhat disturbed by the Crucible - that's why Scott and Kurt had their conversation about it. I also understand why mutants are willing, perhaps even eager, to join in. These are people who had a literal part of themselves ripped away. For someone who can fly, it must seem like a runner having their legs amputated, and for someone whose powers include any form of telepathy or enhanced senses, like suddenly waking up blind. Now they are told that they can be restored, and can see with their own eyes that death in the Crucible is a mere momentary inconvenience. If I was told I could spend 10 minutes dead, and after I would come back with a body that was 25, and no health issues, I'd probably leap at the chance. Heck, just being able to return to a time before her fibromyalgia would have my wife jumping forward.

Not seeing the weirdness inherent in this is a mistake, but so is not being able to see anything but.

Yes, clearly it's meant to be "unnerving" at least superficially but there is a deeper metaphor as well. Again, Melody Guthrie CHOOSES to take part. Apocalypse is not actually attacking her, he is ritually performing a ceremony WITH her.

They reacted that way because of course it wasn't an easy thing to watch (the issue doesn't make any pretext that it is) and they instinctively don't want to see violence done to a family member. But intellectually they know death can now be undone, and they are likely as happy as Melody is with the end results.

Correct - the issue demonstrated her relatives being upset. It demonstrated Nightcrawler being upset/skeptical/leery. This was to acknowledge that on the surface for many readers the Crucible will be bizarre, strange, violent, horrible, unethical. But then you read the whole issue, pay attention, and let it sit in your mind a bit, and you notice the ecstasy Melody has by the end.

[BroHomo]

There's more to how laws get made then simply voting, including on Krakoa. That's the final part of the process, what about the rest? We saw this spelt out when they made the Three Laws. Do you honestly believe not a single person on the Council had an opinion on other options to that subject?

Well obviously....sure Sinister had something kinky in mind....Jean.. something a lil more vanilla...but the majority voted and the crucible was the way it went. You can keep making a case for it's barbarism but if you think Storm, Magneto, Jean, Nightcrawler, Emma, Exodus, Xavier aren't putting the well-being of Mutants first I'd loooove to see your nominees for Mutants fit to delegate on the council

[Steel Inquisitor]

Gonna paste three things since Crucible keeps being discussed with people seemingly not remembering or acknowledging past comments about it:

We're discussing how they ended up with voting for Crucible, not the Crucible itself. The opposition to date assumes there was no process beforehand, somehow Apocalypse got to the ultimate judge of how to rebirth mutants and nobody had any opinions on the Council to give as alternatives, they vote, and it's made into law. We know that process isn't true as we saw how they make laws with the Three Laws meeting.

[loke13]

We're discussing how they ended up with voting for Crucible, not the Crucible itself. The opposition to date assumes there was no process beforehand, somehow Apocalypse got to the ultimate judge of how to rebirth mutants and nobody had any opinions on the Council to give as alternatives, they vote, and it's made into law. We know that process isn't true as we saw how they make laws with the Three Laws meeting.

But we know how this came about? Nightcrawler even says that apocalypse is solution was basically a compromised because the council couldn't decide what to do with the depowered mutants they were basically in a Deadlock. Apocalypse's way was the compromise and obviously satisfied enough people on the QC to get a majority vote.

[H-E-D]

I mean, I personally think they could have done better than the Crucible in-universe. But as a reader? It’s great.

I don’t understand this notion people seem to have that it’s bad writing when characters make decisions we disagree with.

[spirit2011]

But we know how this came about? Nightcrawler even says that apocalypse is solution was basically a compromised because the council couldn't decide what to do with the depowered mutants they were basically in a Deadlock. Apocalypse's way was the compromise and obviously satisfied enough people on the QC to get a majority vote.

it's really hard to believe they didn't had a better solution than crucicle

[SiegePerilous02]

I just went and re-read the issue. The two scenes where the crowd isn't just a color-blur, there are people cheering. Its no one specific because they just drew them as silhouette but there is cheering.

I've read the issue twice already, there is nobody cheering. Like one dude has his arm raised, but like you said the crowds are kind of a blur. What we can see of everyone else, they are serious and staying still and being respectful.

Unless you have a scan of something more clear cut, the evidence doesn't support your claim.

NONE of it justifies the stupid system Hickman created anyway. There are countless ways to return powers without death and bloodsport that have been covered multiple times already.

And they really have.

No, the article quoted by Tycon and AbnormallyNormal quoted pretty much sums of eloquently why this was a very interesting route to take. And it holds up better if the detractors have to make stuff up (like crowd cheering during Melody's fight because "blood thirsty") to tear it down.

I mean, I personally think they could have done better than the Crucible in-universe. But as a reader? It’s great.

I don’t understand this notion people seem to have that it’s bad writing when characters make decisions we disagree with.

Also this. The X-Men franchise is filled to the brim with these characters making odd and very gray moral decisions.

Claremont alone did a lot of weird and controversial stuff. We wouldn't have the franchise we have now without that kind of story telling. This is not a more straight forward superhero narrative, and it never was. It's most iconic storylines revolve around the lead heroine going insane with power and committing suicide and a possible future where Mutants are in concentration camps.