By nature of it being a compromise it wasnt the most "extreme" option. And no it's not relevant to the plot. Where you might be confusing things is saying that it's relevant to YOU. We don't need to know the individual options presented to understand that those options caused a deadlock of sorts and Apocalypse proposed a solution that the majority of the QC could agree on. Whoever that majority might be.
Scans? Examples?
I mean you can interpret the outta focus crowd many ways.... there's no way to tell if the crowd is cheering in excitement as they witness something beautiful.....or are in a ecclesiastical silence
Hmmm I feel if i were watching a young girl battle a giant blue man to the death, I wouldn't be discussing what could have been. Or listening to someone talk about that bureaucracy that led to this point. Seems kinda rude. There is a time and place for that....Ideally the Quiet Council.
Or its good manners.
I mean Kurt obfuscates it plainly....
"when i do violence to others i do violence to the world and when i do violence to the world i do violence to myself"
Why do you assume this is the extreme? Fact is a depowered mutant is going to have to die to get their powers back...Sure there are other options, but not many that lends an air of gravitas of a rebirth.
Where's the pressure?
As opposed to knowing you're going to win? I mean I know that's not your point, it obviously flew over my head. If you've never done something because you believed it was right(or you were a snotty teen) despite knowing the outcome would not be in your favor I guess the crucible looks pointless, but you're missing a good story.
+
I never looked like this when I lost tho....
++
Who else can say they've Humbled ol' Apoccy?? Not many.
Last edited by BroHomo; 03-31-2020 at 09:10 PM.
GrindrStone(D)
You need scans to prove X-men shouldn't be celebrating ritual sacrifices?
The context of this is that we've viewing this from afar since it's a comic book but would people be so supportive of the Crucible had they seen it in person? Seeing someone die in front of you is supposed to be a traumatising experience, especially for the one dying. Hickman deliberately avoids getting too realistic with the Crucible's depiction, instead its made to look like it might be something "good" when seeing a person dying from being stabbed in the gut in the real world isn't quick, it's quite painful and there's lots of blood everywhere. It's a messy affair which would ruin Hickman trying to convince people why some mutants think of it is good and he did too well that the readers buy it without question.I mean you can interpret the outta focus crowd many ways.... there's no way to tell if the crowd is cheering in excitement as they witness something beautiful.....or are in a ecclesiastical silence
Hmmm I feel if i were watching a young girl battle a giant blue man to the death, I wouldn't be discussing what could have been. Or listening to someone talk about that bureaucracy that led to this point. Seems kinda rude. There is a time and place for that....Ideally the Quiet Council.
This isn't the typical violence X-men face, this is ritual sacrifice. The X-men still remain far too comfy seeing the Crucible, the X-men I know would have put a stop to it as soon as they saw what was going in.Or its good manners.
I mean Kurt obfuscates it plainly....
"when i do violence to others i do violence to the world and when i do violence to the world i do violence to myself"
Why do you assume it isn't? We know Apocalypse created the Crucible, do you assume Jean Grey wants more traumatic methods for mutants regaining their powers?Why do you assume this is the extreme? Fact is a depowered mutant is going to have to die to get their powers back...Sure there are other options, but not many that lends an air of gravitas of a rebirth.
Peer pressure is built into the concept, how it's presented and accepted as "normal" is a powerful motivator for driving behaviour in cultures. The X-men have to keep their doubts to themselves at the actual event, that's how fringe their beliefs are presented. Apocalypse has huge social power and political authority in Krakoa and that's horrifying.Where's the pressure?
As opposed to knowing you're going to win? I mean I know that's not your point, it obviously flew over my head. If you've never done something because you believed it was right(or you were a snotty teen) despite knowing the outcome would not be in your favor I guess the crucible looks pointless, but you're missing a good story.
Comparing this to gladiatorial combat isn't right, either - since gladiators have a chance at winning. The point of the ritual is saying the right words too Apocalypse for him to commit a ritual sacrifice. Melody winning wouldn't have got her powers back, it'd still end with him murdering her. Everyone knew the outcome here, Apocalypse planning it thoroughly.
Cultists, however, do once they've participated in rituals which break them and build them up. Of course, they usually don't succeed in resurrecting people since their rituals aren't reliant on science like Krakoa's is.+
I never looked like this when I lost tho....
Context. Of course ritual sacrifice humbles Apocalypse, he came up with this idea. That Apocalypse is happy about this isn't something you should be happy about. It's proof underneath all his "gentleness" lately that he's still the same ol' Apocalypse who kills people for his deluded Survival of the Fittest ideology.++
Who else can say they've Humbled ol' Apoccy?? Not many.
Why? That you're uninterested in how here doesn't mean everyone else is. The Crucible is major plot point to Hickman's X-men run, so all the information around how it came to be and what isn't said may be a Chekov's gun waiting to go off, as well s the fact readers want to know more about how it came to be and are unsatisfied with the huge blank where the details should be.
This isn't about data this is about political opinions, as we saw the Council do when making laws. This is missing when it comes to the Crucible, which is a big red flag Something Is Wrong. Why aren't you curious about how they decided on the Crucible as the winning option? I'd like to know the votes, as well. If we had the former we might be able to get the latter, but it's hidden from us. Why? I'm starting to think "Charles" wanted the Crucible for some reason and brainwashed everyone into going along with it. I'm not interested in drama, I'm interested in logic.I don't think we need a data page of a transcript of that particular quiet council meeting to know that the QC was unable to handle the mutants depowered by the Pretender an Apocalypse is solution what's the one that they decided upon to settle the matter. I would much rather like to know who voted for The Crucible and who voted against it I think that has more potential for drama
"The Pretender?" Really?
“Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe
Celebrating? It was your point that they were decidely not celebrating.... but No I meant scans of the X-Men...or anyone acting all pod people.
Well that goes without saying... but the people in the audience aren't little kids. For the most part the ones that I could make out have either Died and came back....Cyclops, Skin, ArchAngel, Nightcrawler, Xavier, Havoc, Magneto(?) Guido(was a Hell Lord!) Or has seen people die and come back. To fight and die is to be a mutant in their world. The crucible reflects that. Which is the whole point of KraKoa to end the unwavering slaughter of mutants by giving a big middle finger to humans...'Oh you tryna kill us?' Nah cause we're coming right back at ya. Hell it was more traumated for them then, since the resurrection protocols werent in existence.
Well and because its not a gore comic. I'm not sure what readers are supposed to be 'buying'? Aero died. We all agree on that. Then she was reborn, which I'm guessing is a pretty awesome experience. And is about time, Its kinda ridiculous that the 'main' Xmen live such charmed lives that death and resurrection no matter how implausible has become commonplace. When poor R-list mutant got killed there was little to no chance of them returning. What's the rhyme or reason for that.
Errr who? Xavier who kept a sentient machine locked in his basement? Jean? who shattered Emma Frost? Cyclops who killed Xavier? Storm? who ripped out Marrows heart? It's a brand new X-World...The x-men have no time for human ideals about death....Caaaaause it's not permanent. Continually thinking about it as a end of person is illogical.
Likely an unrealistic one. Buuuuut it was never explictly stated that it the crucible in it's final iteration is exactly what Apocalypse had in mind. Apocalypse has no allies on the Quiet Concile. Unless you think xavier, Jean, NC, Emma, Doug, Storm, just sat there while Apocalypse laid out plans that they considered horrific
But. It.s the. First. One....how is it already normal if it's never been done before. Oh Im sure there were some debates buuuut thats fore the QC to decide. If Cyclops were to run out in the middle what would that accomplish? Parents of soldiers know that it's a choice their kid makes. Typically Not being supportive of that choice would only makes things worse...for them and their kid.
Dude...its not like they rehearsed lines during their lunch break...the point of the ritual is to reject the humanity that was forced on Aero, to give it up. so that a crime against her is retafied. Aero woulda got her powers back even if she woulda surprised everyone and kicked his Apoccy Ass, but thats not really the point of having the 'first' mutant get rid of human body. btw its not murder as...no laws were broken....and Aero is alive.
People usually look/feel/are happy once a ritual is complete.
well I don't remember him smiling much in Aoa, annnnd again It's very unlikely this was entirely his idea. The QC seems all about compromise.
It's cool that readers wanna see bureaucracy in action. But wanting and getting aren't the same thing...but not everything can be shown in a 22-23 page comic surely you understand that. Esp since Hickman seems to focus on the overall narrative of the Xmen. I'm sure just as many people want to see their fav Xmen reunited with someone they lost buuuut its unlikely to happen. Focusing on what you think is a huge lack will only make your enjoyment of what is being told/presented less than what it could be.
I mean why would "he" want it to happen? besides the obvious reasons of giving mutants back their 'personhood'?
Eh inferono was kinda gray
GrindrStone(D)
Good characters were just the characters with whom the readers can identify.
They weren't perfect… like the reader isn't perfect.
Claremont was holding up a mirror to his readership.
The characters who wanted to do the right thing always exist in Claremont's universe.
When he did exactly the opposite, it was for the sake of drama. He loved to explore all the possibilities offered by his beloved characters.
“Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe
“Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe
They're watching from afar as Apocalypse murders a girl and don't raise a hand to stop him, so it's been normalised in Krakoa society. The ones who were complaining were doing so very poorly, the X-men as I know them wouldn't have spent five seconds talking they'd be acting to save the girl.
Except the comic never delves into it being a horrifying experience for her, once she comes back from the dead Melody's on a high. The audience being adults isn't a reason that they should not be emotionally affected by a girl being murdered in front of them, if anything it'd make them more angry since they can do something about it. Them dying before is not the same as what Melody did, Apocalypse engineered her death in a public display of ritual sacrifice and dying is a traumatic experience. The comics don't go too much into that because it'd be too depressing, not that they're ok with dying that they won't blink an eye watching someone get murdered in front of them. The X-men fight, they only die as a last resort - this is meta commentary on the X-men coming back from death so often it became a joke. Mutant kind wasn't bought into this until Krakoa was formed. The Crucible reflects Apocalypse Survival of the Fittest mantra, the hame is he's convinced gullible people that if he murders them they become stronger. It's perfectly in character for him to do this, since his moral code he learnt from millennia in the past in a Egyptian brutal desert. The X-men fought to protect mutant kind and humanity, they wanted peace between the two groups - it was the mutant supremacists they struggled against who thought that - it's why Krakoa has compromised the X-men. How is getting stabbed to death by Apocalypse in front of a large crowd less traumatising?Well that goes without saying... but the people in the audience aren't little kids. For the most part the ones that I could make out have either Died and came back....Cyclops, Skin, ArchAngel, Nightcrawler, Xavier, Havoc, Magneto(?) Guido(was a Hell Lord!) Or has seen people die and come back. To fight and die is to be a mutant in their world. The crucible reflects that. Which is the whole point of KraKoa to end the unwavering slaughter of mutants by giving a big middle finger to humans...'Oh you tryna kill us?' Nah cause we're coming right back at ya. Hell it was more traumated for them then, since the resurrection protocols werent in existence.
Which helps sell the narrative that it's ok, it's normal and you want them to do this. Realism in those circumstances breaks the indoctrination. You bought into the Crucible being right, that it was the only answer and to make it a natural part of mutant society on Krakoa. It's surprising how so many readers of the X-men quickly sided with Apocalypse - over everything. This is not something we should be taking at surface value, it's telling that the first was a young girl - someone far more pliable to being manipulated than a full grown adult. The X-men had no control over that, that's about the writers and editors not the characters. Popular characters get certain benefits, like being resurrected, that happens in various comic books not just the X-men. Would you have preferred Xavier and Warren not helped the less wealthy X-men with money? Then there's the wealthy villains, all of the people on the Quiet Council never have problems with money. Before Krakoa Apocalypse had the very best super-villain bases and technology at his fingertips.Well and because its not a gore comic. I'm not sure what readers are supposed to be 'buying'? Aero died. We all agree on that. Then she was reborn, which I'm guessing is a pretty awesome experience. And is about time, Its kinda ridiculous that the 'main' Xmen live such charmed lives that death and resurrection no matter how implausible has become commonplace. When poor R-list mutant got killed there was little to no chance of them returning. What's the rhyme or reason for that.
Yeah, them. Mutants aren't as alien in their psychology as you think. They don't know they're in a comic book. Even with what they have now death ins't pleasant. The X-men were shook up hard when they were killed in their raid of Orchis.Errr who? Xavier who kept a sentient machine locked in his basement? Jean? who shattered Emma Frost? Cyclops who killed Xavier? Storm? who ripped out Marrows heart? It's a brand new X-World...The x-men have no time for human ideals about death....Caaaaause it's not permanent. Continually thinking about it as a end of person is illogical.
[Why would you think when we don't have the faintest idea what the others had for options? Jean isn't stupid and she's far more humane than Apocalypse ever was. For someone with no allies on the Council Apocalypse sure had no problem getting the Crucible made into law. That's just it, we don't know anything about how that played out and no-one's talking. Why?B]Likely an unrealistic one.[/B] Buuuuut it was never explictly stated that it the crucible in it's final iteration is exactly what Apocalypse had in mind. Apocalypse has no allies on the Quiet Concile. Unless you think xavier, Jean, NC, Emma, Doug, Storm, just sat there while Apocalypse laid out plans that they considered horrific
It being the first should make it more intense, not whatever that response was. They all have had good reasons to hate and distrust Apocalypse, not sit idly by while he murdered another X-man. What debates? What the Quiet Council decide should be scrutinised, not followed blindly. That half hearted and defeated complaining was hardly a "debate" - they lost hard and they knew it. They're lost, confused and off centre with a decision which should come to them without thinking. The Crucible isn't anything like a family having a member join the military, they went through this when the siblings joined the X-men, soldiers don't have their families with them when they get ritually sacrificed in an arena.But. It.s the. First. One....how is it already normal if it's never been done before. Oh Im sure there were some debates buuuut thats fore the QC to decide. If Cyclops were to run out in the middle what would that accomplish? Parents of soldiers know that it's a choice their kid makes. Typically Not being supportive of that choice would only makes things worse...for them and their kid.
Apocalypse has been cultivating cults for millennia, he probably knew that off the top of his head. He's an ancient self styled deity, this isn't his first rodeo with cult indoctrination. That's what talented cult leaders want their victims to think, their values are warped. Up becomes down, wrong becomes right. Laws can be wrong. Aero would have only got her powers back if she dies, that's the point of the Crucible - for the person to "prove" themselves to Apocalypse that they're "worthy" of regaining their powers - then he kills them with a sword. Without that last bit they remain a human since the Five have their process activate upon death and it has nothing to do with Apocalypse. Wolverine could have stabbed her with his claws and she'd get her powers back, too. Would you have been ok with that? Aero didn't say alive during that whole exercise, she had to die to be resurrected.Dude...its not like they rehearsed lines during their lunch break...the point of the ritual is to reject the humanity that was forced on Aero, to give it up. so that a crime against her is retafied. Aero woulda got her powers back even if she woulda surprised everyone and kicked his Apoccy Ass, but thats not really the point of having the 'first' mutant get rid of human body. btw its not murder as...no laws were broken....and Aero is alive.
People usually look/feel/are happy once a ritual is complete.
well I don't remember him smiling much in Aoa, annnnd again It's very unlikely this was entirely his idea. The QC seems all about compromise.
We don't know the context for the "compromise."
Hickman's run has been full of bureaucracy, most X-men comics don't have 1/10th the bureaucracy he's written in the last few months. But this somehow is missing? Hickman spends entire issues on sending the X-men to economic summits, the fact that he won't on this should make you suspicious that it's a shoe that's going to drop down the line. That's an odd response to what I was saying.It's cool that readers wanna see bureaucracy in action. But wanting and getting aren't the same thing...but not everything can be shown in a 22-23 page comic surely you understand that. Esp since Hickman seems to focus on the overall narrative of the Xmen. I'm sure just as many people want to see their fav Xmen reunited with someone they lost buuuut its unlikely to happen. Focusing on what you think is a huge lack will only make your enjoyment of what is being told/presented less than what it could be.
I don't know but I don't trust this new Xavier. This Xavier is all about his own agenda, he's cold and calculated. Kind of like the worst depictions of Batman.I mean why would "he" want it to happen? besides the obvious reasons of giving mutants back their 'personhood'?