Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[pkingdom]

Making death an actual joke in comics feels like a bad writing tool to solve a decade of bad writing. Every other series in Marvel doesn't kill characters like X comics does. All its done is make the stakes nonexistent and encourage writers to kill with impunity to create phaux stakes. That its being used to tell the same sci-fi story every other story with clones has ever told just makes it worse.

Calling the Crucible a part of mutant culture is laughable. Culture is really complicated, but the Crucible was literally proposed and voted on by a committee. And its only been a few months.

[pkingdom]

Deleted for double post

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah naw.
Just because you don't find value in something doesn't mean it was worthless.

See you say that, but are you actually a diehard fan of the likes of Goldballs, Hope (yet another Jean expy), Proteus, etc.? Or just using them to make a point?
I know in places like this people come out of the woodwork to defend even the most bottom of the barrel z-list characters and they are 100% genuine, but these characters are just not much of a draw for most of the audience Marvel is aiming for (and appear to have attracted). Among diehard fans, lapsed fans and new fans.

They are just not valuable in the grand scheme of things.

Especially since there's a built in queue in universe. Means the overused and overexposed will come right back but we'll still get "oh they have to wait their turn" for others.

Lol as if they wouldn't be pretty much waiting in a queue (called "comic book limbo") until a writer wanted to use them otherwise. If that ever happened at all. There is literally no difference worth making a fuss about.

Especially as there isn't always a story for every single character at all times. Some are destined to be wallpaper no matter what.

Making death an actual joke in comics feels like a bad writing tool to solve a decade of bad writing. Every other series in Marvel doesn't kill characters like X comics does. All its done is make the stakes nonexistent and encourage writers to kill with impunity to create phaux stakes. That its being used to tell the same sci-fi story every other story with clones has ever told just makes it worse.

The stakes are not nonexistent. Judging by the spoilers of issue #8, one of the complications seems to be being set up.

And they would have to be clones to be another story about clones. They are not, it is something more nuanced. If you think they are clones, you are pretty much admitting that you believe the real Xavier died in the original Brood saga and we've had a clone ever since. Because that's basically what we're dealing with here, on a larger scale.

[spirit2011]

Making death an actual joke in comics feels like a bad writing tool to solve a decade of bad writing. Every other series in Marvel doesn't kill characters like X comics does. All its done is make the stakes nonexistent and encourage writers to kill with impunity to create phaux stakes. That its being used to tell the same sci-fi story every other story with clones has ever told just makes it worse.

Calling the Crucible a part of mutant culture is laughable. Culture is really complicated, but the Crucible was literally proposed and voted on by a committee. And its only been a few months.

Crucible was made by apocalypse so he could get a cult and of course kill people. There is nothing about culture on it

[Knives]

Crucible was made by apocalypse so he could get a cult and of course kill people. There is nothing about culture on it

But of course, let's totally forget that the council contains several members who vote. Let's ignore that this was the best solution they had to deal with millions of mutants waiting to regain their powers. Let's pretend that they have no choice but to go through the ritual by force after all they have no free will and that they will die forever instead of returning to life with their powers.

Let's just think that all the mutants living in Krakoa are there against their will and that they prefer to live in a humane society with laws that do not protect mutants and that the American army or other countries do not try to use them as weapons or slaves. Let's all believe that giant killer robots and armed supremacists who hate mutants do not exist and are purely fake news created by people like Magneto.

Let's pretend that having loved ones killed by Sentinels or supremacists who hate mutants brought back to life is a terrible and cruel act.

Let's just believe that the world outside of Krakoa is a haven for mutants and that they don't have to live in isolation from the humans who accept them and love them as brothers.

After all, it is not as if a war between humans and mutants or AI did not happen in Moira's life and that in all of them the mutants lost and the human race was extinct.

Let's just ignore the plot and go back to the good days with schools and buses full of mutant children being blown up.


As far as I know, some indigenous people have a culture of killing children with health problems or disabilities and we don't see anyone condemning these tribes for that.Or maybe we should kill them all or maybe impose our evolved culture on them? What about those who flogging and hurt themselves for faith? Should we stop them too?


What about the death penalty? Or life imprisonment? Abortion? Personally, I don't see much difference that justifies that human culture is better and I can easily think of two or three countries that turn a blind eye to dictators and assassins simply because they are useful and serve greater interests.


Sorry but your arguments don't have much weight at least for now. Krakoa remains the best that has happened to the mutants even with all the downside until something changes.

[Steel Inquisitor]

But of course, let's totally forget that the council contains several members who vote. Let's ignore that this was the best solution they had to deal with millions of mutants waiting to regain their powers. Let's pretend that they have no choice but to go through the ritual by force after all they have no free will and that they will die forever instead of returning to life with their powers.

Let's just think that all the mutants living in Krakoa are there against their will and that they prefer to live in a humane society with laws that do not protect mutants and that the American army or other countries do not try to use them as weapons or slaves. Let's all believe that giant killer robots and armed supremacists who hate mutants do not exist and are purely fake news created by people like Magneto.

So because some other people voted for a pointless exercise for an ancient god whose philosophy is alien to us that's defined by Survival of the Fittest it's acceptable? We shouldn't question Apocalypse? This isn't the "best" solution, it's simply the only solution the council voted on to uphold. It's been explained in interviews how the repowering works and he's not involved in any of that. He's not in the Five. All it requires is death, nothing more.

That many people voted for it should be setting off alarm bells that's Something's Wrong, not that it's acceptable. What about the X-men who disagree with the Crucible? Why are you taking Apocalypse word over Nightcrawler's?

We don't know the full context for how we got to the status quo. What if they're being mind controlled?

Do you believe supremacist beliefs are wrong, I know you dislike the human aspect of it (which we agree on) but why are you so eager for mutant supremacy which Krakatoa embodies, and they haven't been hiding that.

This Apocalypse is far more persuasive than he was in the past.

Let's pretend that having loved ones killed by Sentinels or supremacists who hate mutants brought back to life is a terrible and cruel act.

Let's just believe that the world outside of Krakoa is a haven for mutants and that they don't have to live in isolation from the humans who accept them and love them as brothers.

Or maybe the real solution is a Krakatoa who isn't so militant and so ready to jump into bed with the worst of the worst mutant kind has to offer? There are more answers to Krakatoa than this and death by Sentinel.

After all, it is not as if a war between humans and mutants or AI did not happen in Moira's life and that in all of them the mutants lost and the human race was extinct.

Let's just ignore the plot and go back to the good days with schools and buses full of mutant children being blown up.

Who says Moira is right? It's not like she didn't stop the wars happening in the future. We're in the first year, we don't have all the answers yet. The plot is unfolding as we speak and isn't as supporting of Krakatoa, in its current state, as you think. Hickman isn't a Might Makes Right type of writer, he deconstructs them.

As far as I know, some indigenous people have a culture of killing children with health problems or disabilities and we don't see anyone condemning these tribes for that.Or maybe we should kill them all or maybe impose our evolved culture on them? What about those who flogging and hurt themselves for faith? Should we stop them too?

What about the death penalty? Or life imprisonment? Abortion? Personally, I don't see much difference that justifies that human culture is better and I can easily think of two or three countries that turn a blind eye to dictators and assassins simply because they are useful and serve greater interests.

You're ignoring the fact that Apocalypse is doing this and its been broadly explained in text that its nothing more than a pointless ritual for him to kill people with. Those are complicated subjects, this is a black and white one.

Sorry but your arguments don't have much weight at least for now. Krakoa remains the best that has happened to the mutants even with all the downside until something changes.

By conflating Apocalypse with Krakatoa you're unintentionally falling for the cult leader schtick of criticising anything the cult leader does goes against their group. Being a cult leader is what Apocalypse does for a living and he's had millennia of experience.

[pkingdom]

That this was something approved by committee makes it even more ridiculous to call this a product of 'mutant culture'. That's like calling every law passed by Congress to be American culture. And people condemn societies that kill children like that ALL THE TIME. Same with the death penalty, and abortion, and life imprisonment. And even if it was some kind of cultural milestone (its not), that doesn't make it above criticism.

There have been tons of ways the M-day depowering has been reversed before. That they settled on this is just bizarre.

[Knives]

So because some other people voted for a pointless exercise for an ancient god whose philosophy is alien to us that's defined by Survival of the Fittest it's acceptable? We shouldn't question Apocalypse? This isn't the "best" solution, it's simply the only solution the council voted on to uphold. It's been explained in interviews how the repowering works and he's not involved in any of that. He's not in the Five. All it requires is death, nothing more.

That many people voted for it should be setting off alarm bells that's Something's Wrong, not that it's acceptable. What about the X-men who disagree with the Crucible? Why are you taking Apocalypse word over Nightcrawler's?

We don't know the full context for how we got to the status quo. What if they're being mind controlled?

Do you believe supremacist beliefs are wrong, I know you dislike the human aspect of it (which we agree on) but why are you so eager for mutant supremacy which Krakatoa embodies, and they haven't been hiding that.

This Apocalypse is far more persuasive than he was in the past.



Or maybe the real solution is a Krakatoa who isn't so militant and so ready to jump into bed with the worst of the worst mutant kind has to offer? There are more answers to Krakatoa than this and death by Sentinel.


Who says Moira is right? It's not like she didn't stop the wars happening in the future. We're in the first year, we don't have all the answers yet. The plot is unfolding as we speak and isn't as supporting of Krakatoa, in its current state, as you think. Hickman isn't a Might Makes Right type of writer, he deconstructs them.


You're ignoring the fact that Apocalypse is doing this and its been broadly explained in text that its nothing more than a pointless ritual for him to kill people with. Those are complicated subjects, this is a black and white one.

By conflating Apocalypse with Krakatoa you're unintentionally falling for the cult leader schtick of anything the cult leader does goes against their group. Being a cult leader is what Apocalypse does for a living and he's had millennia of experience.

So are you saying that Kurt and the other X-men who lost during the vote should hit Krakoa and take power? Start a civil war? Breaking their promise to villains and losing powerful assets in protecting Krakoa or in the possible future war? Should an individual's opinion surpass that of the entire group?

So you are basing your negative opinion on Krakoa on the basis of something that no one can claim with certainty just a theory instead of judging by proven facts? So should all mutants in Krakoa go back to having a life being chased by humans just because you're afraid that Xavier is manipulating everyone even if has no evidence? Or judging based on the writer's stories in the past without knowing what the end game is? Isn't that the same as judging a book by its cover?

Of course, many in Krakoa think that mutants are superior, but so what? As far as I know different from supremacists who hate mutants in Krakoa the rule is not to kill humans. What about mutants who break the rules like Creed? Is it the same with humans who kill mutants?

Just tell me when a mutant killer was convicted or judged ?

Krakoa in a few months in condemning Creed did what humans have never done in their lives for mutants .

Again Krakoa is the best thing that happened to mutants until something big changes the story. And when I say something I'm talking about real events or facts and not conspiracy theories.

[scourge]

That this was something approved by committee makes it even more ridiculous to call this a product of 'mutant culture'. That's like calling every law passed by Congress to be American culture. And people condemn societies that kill children like that ALL THE TIME. Same with the death penalty, and abortion, and life imprisonment. And even if it was some kind of cultural milestone (its not), that doesn't make it above criticism.

There have been tons of ways the M-day depowering has been reversed before. That they settled on this is just bizarre.

Wanda can do it herself with a spell like she did for Rictor. Hook her up with another magic user and/or Hope and they could probably do it in groups.

[scourge]

Again Krakoa is the best thing that happened to mutants until something big changes the story. And when I say something I'm talking about real events or facts and not conspiracy theories.

You're entirely wrong. And no one is putting out 'conspiracy theories'.

[Metal Sphere]

Kurt's musing about what is the founding idea at the heart of Krakoa continue to resonate with me. As the readers we already know that the idea around this entire endeavor is survival, with preparation for a seemingly inevitable war against humanity as the main impetus. The question I keep seeing echoed in the concerns many have is this: What are you willing to sacrifice to survive? No scratch that, they explicitly want to thrive and win. How far are you willing to go? What beliefs are you willing to discard, tolerate, or embrace? What do you do with those who don't want to go as far as you, but whose refusal will endanger the endeavor?

I suspect we'll have this stuff touched on as Hickman keeps going with all this.

[pkingdom]

So are you saying that Kurt and the other X-men who lost during the vote should hit Krakoa and take power? Start a civil war? Breaking their promise to villains and losing powerful assets in protecting Krakoa or in the possible future war? Should an individual's opinion surpass that of the entire group?

So you are basing your negative opinion on Krakoa on the basis of something that no one can claim with certainty just a theory instead of judging by proven facts? So should all mutants in Krakoa go back to having a life being chased by humans just because you're afraid that Xavier is manipulating everyone even if has no evidence? Or judging based on the writer's stories in the past without knowing what the end game is? Isn't that the same as judging a book by its cover?

Of course, many in Krakoa think that mutants are superior, but so what? As far as I know different from supremacists who hate mutants in Krakoa the rule is not to kill humans. What about mutants who break the rules like Creed? Is it the same with humans who kill mutants?

Just tell me when a mutant killer was convicted or judged ?

Krakoa in a few months in condemning Creed did what humans have never done in their lives for mutants .

Again Krakoa is the best thing that happened to mutants until something big changes the story. And when I say something I'm talking about real events or facts and not conspiracy theories.

This is all over the place. For starters, it is fact that Xavier is manipulating everyone. He confused to it in X-force, and that's not even getting in to Mystique and Moira. And it was constantly fluctuating as to how bad it was for mutants outside of Krakoa. In one story they could throw mutant pride festivals in public, and and the next they were getting rounded up for slaughter. The inconsistency makes it hard to take the danger seriously.

And I don't know what you were talking about with Creed. They literally sprang him from his trial for murder to dump him inside Krakoa. He's been in jail a ton, and either escaped or was sprang by people like Mystique and Magneto.

[pkingdom]

Kurt's musing about what is the founding idea at the heart of Krakoa continue to resonate with me. As the readers we already know that the idea around this entire endeavor is survival, with preparation for a seemingly inevitable war against humanity as the main impetus. The question I keep seeing echoed in the concerns many have is this: What are you willing to sacrifice to survive? No scratch that, they explicitly want to thrive and win. How far are you willing to go? What beliefs are you willing to discard, tolerate, or embrace? What do you do with those who don't want to go as far as you, but whose refusal will endanger the endeavor?

I suspect we'll have this stuff touched on as Hickman keeps going with all this.

This is basically what the premise is. And if you find this sort of story interesting, like you seem to do, then its a great run. Personally I'm sick of so many stories doing the morally grey thing with 'whatever it takes' type of actions. Its the kind of story that kept me away from the X-books by and large for years. And spending months, if not years, watching characters do progressively terrible things before finally finding a conscious is just exhausting. Seeing all of the things that they were willing to put up with and nod and shrug along too just makes it hard to root for them, or take them seriously as a moral person. Certainly not as any kind of hero.

[Steel Inquisitor]

So are you saying that Kurt and the other X-men who lost during the vote should hit Krakoa and take power? Start a civil war? Breaking their promise to villains and losing powerful assets in protecting Krakoa or in the possible future war? Should an individual's opinion surpass that of the entire group?

So you are basing your negative opinion on Krakoa on the basis of something that no one can claim with certainty just a theory instead of judging by proven facts? So should all mutants in Krakoa go back to having a life being chased by humans just because you're afraid that Xavier is manipulating everyone even if has no evidence? Or judging based on the writer's stories in the past without knowing what the end game is? Isn't that the same as judging a book by its cover?

Of course, many in Krakoa think that mutants are superior, but so what? As far as I know different from supremacists who hate mutants in Krakoa the rule is not to kill humans. What about mutants who break the rules like Creed? Is it the same with humans who kill mutants?

Just tell me when a mutant killer was convicted or judged ?

Krakoa in a few months in condemning Creed did what humans have never done in their lives for mutants .

Again Krakoa is the best thing that happened to mutants until something big changes the story. And when I say something I'm talking about real events or facts and not conspiracy theories.

Moving the goal posts, first we have to discuss whether you agree Nightcrawler was right over Apocalypse. It's alarming how you're conflating every mutant criminal is going to line up behind Apocalypse without thinking and that the threat is civil war is what should keep the mutant population subdued out of fear rather than oppose him. Which would be in character for Apocalypse, given that he's an immortal tyrant.

I'm not suggesting they break their promise to all villains, just the ones who aren't trustworthy.

"Powerful assets" are only assets when they have loyalty your group, not corruptive ones known for having their own horrible agendas that could turn on you at any time, like Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister. Alliances with villains like them are brief in nature, they're not someone you should think are going to be long term allies.

Do you know who Apocalypse is? What his personality is like? What's he's done? Your reaction to the villains is like you're going them a complete blank slate and that they're loyal X-men now. Many can do this, but not all of them. Except I never said they had to go back to the previous status quo, you're trapping yourself into thinking it's either Apocalypse or death when that's not all the options available. The mind control is a theory, but what if I'm right?What if Apocalypse got to Xavier, which in turn go to Emma and the other telepaths and so on? Then what? Why wouldn't I be looking at what the writers have made in the past to know what they're doing? That's what writers do, they have patterns. Do you have any proof Hickman did a 180 on his thoughts on the Avengers? Where did he say the Illuminati were right? Judging a book by its cover is not exploring how writers did prior projects or characters pasts, it's about skin deep reactions.

So what? They aren't any different from other supremacists, it's in the name. Wasn't too long ago Apocalypse nearly destroyed humanity with a gene bomb when he evolved out of his Evan persona. Supremacy is about being superior to other races, not whether you want to kill humans (Apocalypse does, btw.) Moving the goal posts. Fairly sure killing mutants is illegal in the Marvel universe.

You'll toss Creed to the wolves but won't bat any eye for Apocalypse? They're both monsters.

Part of the fun with reading comics is dissecting the stories and figuring out where it'll go. It's not passive entertainment. It's not a conspiracy theory to think Apocalypse is an ancient tyrant who believes in the Survival of the Fittest that shouldn't be trusted. I salute Hickman for making Apocalypse come off like someone that is trustworthy for readers, that's master class writing give his past.

Part of your "facts" are basing it on Moira being right based on future time lines, which in the Marvel universe are very fluid.

Are you going to question Apocalypse? You've avoided speaking about him in this post. He's not a "good guy," he's mutant Satan.

[Knives]

Wanda can do it herself with a spell like she did for Rictor. Hook her up with another magic user and/or Hope and they could probably do it in groups.

Good luck with that.

First, as far as I can remember, she lost a good deal of her power.

Second few in Krakoa or among the X-men trust her.

Third the truth is that Wanda seems happy to have no connection with the mutants or Magneto anymore.

You're entirely wrong. And no one is putting out 'conspiracy theories'.

Of course, ignoring that Krakoa is ruled by a group of people, believing that each villain or Xavier has a plan to rule or destroy Krakoa before it is shown in the stories has nothing to do with conspiracy theories. Let's ignore that everything Xavier has done so far is because of the futures that Moira has shown him.

This is all over the place. For starters, it is fact that Xavier is manipulating everyone. He confused to it in X-force, and that's not even getting in to Mystique and Moira. And it was constantly fluctuating as to how bad it was for mutants outside of Krakoa. In one story they could throw mutant pride festivals in public, and and the next they were getting rounded up for slaughter. The inconsistency makes it hard to take the danger seriously.

And I don't know what you were talking about with Creed. They literally sprang him from his trial for murder to dump him inside Krakoa. He's been in jail a ton, and either escaped or was sprang by people like Mystique and Magneto.

As long as the resurrection protocol exists Krakoa lives. The problem is precisely the fact that the enemies of the mutants do not give up even when the mutants decide to isolate themselves from the world, they keep coming using creative methods of infiltrating Krakoa and killing mutants. Yet for some reason, knowing all this, many still wonder why mutants prefer Krakoa or why Magneto or Apocalypse are in Krakoa. It's like asking why atomic bombs exist .

Seriously, can't you understand how Krakoa by creating a law against killing humans and arresting a mutant that killed humans proves how superior Krakoa is to human society that has never done the same for mutants?

As a matter of fact, since we have touched on the subject Krakoa so far has proven itself better in almost everything than human societies. Without wars (except when humans or aliens attack the island), superior medicine, conquered death, without theft or murder, technology that does not pollute the planet and without capitalism deciding the value of people.

Krakoa is not only a Utopia due to the fact that they constantly need to protect themselves from humans attacking them.