Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Wolverine12]

Still doesn't change the fact that we've already had a few threads on the exact same topic...the last one being Counting Down to the Downfall or some such.

You're right I forgot all about that thread. Merging in 3..2..1..

[The tall man]

When you blame the entire group of mutants for the actions of a few you're only validating the same metaphor you're criticizing.

"Unlike in the real world mutants are a real threat". Religious groups have preached that LGBTQI+ people will bring hell on Earth for centuries. Lots of LGBTQI+ ppl are actually against religion institutions because they are a threat to their lives. Does that make the religious institutions right in their hateful speech?

Don't most x-fans blame all humans for the actions of a few? Friends of Humanity, The Purifiers or Orchis does something bad against mutants and suddenly its "all humans" are racist and bigots. You say don't condemn all Krakoans because of the actions of the QC, but x-fans condemn all humans because of the actions of some Gov't officials. Most humans don't give a rats ass about mutants, not when they have their own problems/issues to deal with. But if some (white) Senator proposes a bill to curtail mutant rights then some (black) single mother working two jobs to support her family is a mutant hating bigot, why; just because they both happen to be human? The mutant metaphor is a joke.

[Kingdom X]

Don't most x-fans blame all humans for the actions of a few? Friends of Humanity, The Purifiers or Orchis does something bad against mutants and suddenly its "all humans" are racist and bigots. You say don't condemn all Krakoans because of the actions of the QC, but x-fans condemn all humans because of the actions of some Gov't officials. Most humans don't give a rats ass about mutants, not when they have their own problems/issues to deal with. But if some (white) Senator proposes a bill to curtail mutant rights then some (black) single mother working two jobs to support her family is a mutant hating bigot, why; just because they both happen to be human? The mutant metaphor is a joke.

Idk about "most" X-fans, yes there are some vocal fans who blame all of humanity but that's also because the X-Men comics consistently show us shitty humans. Still, I don't see anybody getting mad that Kyle and Shogo are in the books because they can make the distinction between allies and bigoted humans. I'm also sure that their are plenty of X-Men fans who are also Spider-Man fans.

Also humans not giving a rats ass about mutants doesn't put them in the win column. If you don't care about genocides going on around you that doesn't make you a great person.

At the end of the day I do think that the writers could do a better job of showing a balance of opinions among humanity, but I guess they don't think that would be particularly exciting.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Idk about "most" X-fans, yes there are some vocal fans who blame all of humanity but that's also because the X-Men comics consistently show us shitty humans. Still, I don't see anybody getting mad that Kyle and Shogo are in the books because they can make the distinction between allies and bigoted humans. I'm also sure that their are plenty of X-Men fans who are also Spider-Man fans.

A baby who spends more time as a dragon and someone's boyfriend, on an island of millions of mutants. Them getting a pass don't make Krkaoa any less a non-mutant free zone, and it's not just about humanity, Marvel 616 isn't our world they have beings like Atlanteans there.

Also humans not giving a rats ass about mutants doesn't put them in the win column. If you don't care about genocides going on around you that doesn't make you a great person.

That's a straw man. Absence of evidence isn't evidence. This ignores the fact Marvel has editorial categories and themes in their books, that's why all the anti-mutnat bigots are in the X-titles but are barely seen in Spider-man's titles. It doesn't make the X-men look like the better choice, either, since they don't acknowledge the ruined lives going on in other titles, including genocides - if there isn't a mutant directly involved they won't care and this ignores things like Thor helping out during the Morlock Massacre. Krakoa doesn't care about genocide, if that was true many people wouldn't be on the Quiet Council. They don't even care about mutant government leaders abusing their position to enslave mutants, like Emma Frost.

At the end of the day I do think that the writers could do a better job of showing a balance of opinions among humanity, but I guess they don't think that would be particularly exciting.

True, which is why it shouldn't be spoken as gospel. We know it's not the real state of relations with humanity so why parrot that falsehood when the writers are doing it just because they have a specific theme in their books.

[The tall man]

Idk about "most" X-fans, yes there are some vocal fans who blame all of humanity but that's also because the X-Men comics consistently show us shitty humans. Still, I don't see anybody getting mad that Kyle and Shogo are in the books because they can make the distinction between allies and bigoted humans. I'm also sure that their are plenty of X-Men fans who are also Spider-Man fans.

Also humans not giving a rats ass about mutants doesn't put them in the win column. If you don't care about genocides going on around you that doesn't make you a great person.

At the end of the day I do think that the writers could do a better job of showing a balance of opinions among humanity, but I guess they don't think that would be particularly exciting.

So because the struggling single mother is busy working and not protesting of speaking out in favor of mutant rights she is a bad person? Currently mutants on Krakoa are living in paradise compared to billions of humans living in poverty around the world. Are they shitty people for not using their abilities to help those in underprivileged countries? Is Storm a shitty person for not stopping droughts, Elixir or Triage shitty people for not curing the sick and infirm, Emma or Warren shitty people for not donating money to various charities? I would think most x-fans would say no and that they don't owe humans anything. But the single mother is the awful one because she is focusing on trying to provide for her family instead of supporting mutants rights. That's the entitled logic and sentiment of x-fans, it's all about mutants and the hell with everyone else.

[Kingdom X]

So because the struggling single mother is busy working and not protesting of speaking out in favor of mutant rights she is a bad person? Currently mutants on Krakoa are living in paradise compared to billions of humans living in poverty around the world. Are they shitty people for not using their abilities to help those in underprivileged countries? Is Storm a shitty person for not stopping droughts, Elixir or Triage shitty people for not curing the sick and infirm, Emma or Warren shitty people for not donating money to various charities? I would think most x-fans would say no and that they don't owe humans anything. But the single mother is the awful one because she is focusing on trying to provide for her family instead of supporting mutants rights. That's the entitled logic and sentiment of x-fans, it's all about mutants and the hell with everyone else.

First of all, you seemed to ignore the rest of my point about how writers SHOULD be showing a wider variety of human perspectives.

Second of all, you must of missed the issues where Iceman was saving the polar ice caps, where Krakoa was selling life saving drugs to humans, or where Storm saved regular humans from natural disasters in her solo series.

Lastly, of course an already marginalized person whose struggling on an individual level isn't a bad person if they aren't spending all their time thinking about mutants. They probably don't even have the capacity to make a dent in the system that's usually hurting mutants. But maybe if humans who DID have the capacity to make a difference cared then mutants wouldn't have felt the need to create their own country where they won't be hunted down by killer robots on the regular. It's not a black and white issue and not once did I say that everyone human is automatically "bad" or "evil".

[Rev9]

That depends a lot on 1.Moira (still not immortal) 2.Mystique(still no Irene) 3.Emma(she's so bored that she's gotta be starting somethin) 4.Synch/Laura/Darwin(greetings and presents from the north pole *cough* vault)

[whitecrown]

Don't most x-fans blame all humans for the actions of a few? Friends of Humanity, The Purifiers or Orchis does something bad against mutants and suddenly its "all humans" are racist and bigots. You say don't condemn all Krakoans because of the actions of the QC, but x-fans condemn all humans because of the actions of some Gov't officials. Most humans don't give a rats ass about mutants, not when they have their own problems/issues to deal with. But if some (white) Senator proposes a bill to curtail mutant rights then some (black) single mother working two jobs to support her family is a mutant hating bigot, why; just because they both happen to be human? The mutant metaphor is a joke.

X-Fans blame any humans (or Inhumans) especially the super-powered ones. It's always the fault of the other, they never look at their own characters. The amount of hate directed here towards Captain America, Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, Medusa, the Fantastic Four, etc. never fails to astound me especially because I have never seen the rest of the Marvel fandoms spout the same amount of vitriol towards the X-Men. It also doesn't surprise me that for a franchise that is supposed to be so progressive and diverse, the fans predominantly target female characters like the ones I mentioned above. Even with the FF, most criticism went towards Sue than Reed or anyone else.

[Alan2099]

Idk about "most" X-fans, yes there are some vocal fans who blame all of humanity but that's also because the X-Men comics consistently show us shitty humans.

The X-men comics constantly show us some pretty shitty mutants too.

Magneto, Apocalypse, Sinister, The Hellfire Club, these are some of the most prominent leaders in the mutant community.

X-Fans blame any humans (or Inhumans) especially the super-powered ones. It's always the fault of the other, they never look at their own characters. The amount of hate directed here towards Captain America, Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, Medusa, the Fantastic Four, etc. never fails to astound me especially because I have never seen the rest of the Marvel fandoms spout the same amount of vitriol towards the X-Men. It also doesn't surprise me that for a franchise that is supposed to be so progressive and diverse, the fans predominantly target female characters like the ones I mentioned above. Even with the FF, most criticism went towards Sue than Reed or anyone else.

You always have X-men characters and fans going "Where was _____ while Mutant-Event was going on," but seem completely fine with the X-men not showing up to help against Galactus, Kang, or Carnage.

[The92Ghost]

The X-men comics constantly show us some pretty shitty mutants too.

Magneto, Apocalypse, Sinister, The Hellfire Club, these are some of the most prominent leaders in the mutant community.


You always have X-men characters and fans going "Where was _____ while Mutant-Event was going on," but seem completely fine with the X-men not showing up to help against Galactus, Kang, or Carnage.

That last part was because Fox still owned the X-Men rights, now when everything is back with Marvel, X-Men will be part of everything just like with the recent KiB event and the Invasion of Earth from those planty things, forgot how they were called. X-Men are getting a bigger and bigger role in the MU.

You guys should really pull out your heads from the X-Books and start reading the big events that are happening, there is no single event in which the X-men (well Krakoa) didn't participate to help the other teams.

[Havok83]

That last part was because Fox still owned the X-Men rights, now when everything is back with Marvel, X-Men will be part of everything just like with the recent KiB event and the Invasion of Earth from those planty things, forgot how they were called. X-Men are getting a bigger and bigger role in the MU.

You guys should really pull out your heads from the X-Books and start reading the big events that are happening, there is no single event in which the X-men (well Krakoa) didn't participate to help the other teams.

IDA. The X-men were always apart of almost every major Marvel event when Fox owned the movie rights. From Civil War, to Secret Invasion to Fear Itself to Secret Empire, they've always been utilized in some capacity. I dont think thats what he's referring to. It must be the smaller battles that happen within the monthly pages of the ongoings

[ospfwildcard]

ive never understood the finger pointing that goes on in discussions like this. the only difference between mutants and humans are the power sets. aside from that both have groups of shitty people, those that oppose those shitty people and people on the sidelines that never get involved.

[Zelena]

ive never understood the finger pointing that goes on in discussions like this. the only difference between mutants and humans are the power sets. aside from that both have groups of shitty people, those that oppose those shitty people and people on the sidelines that never get involved.

The majority of humans, by fear, are supposed to support the shittest humans and their shitty behaviour towards mutants. The mutants, on the other hand, aren’t supposed to support the behaviour of bad mutants towards humans…

Honestly, what kind of measures the world where I am living would have taken towards telepaths, mind-controllers and overpowered mutants, some of them being good, others being bad, some of them having just “accidents” with their powers? These stories are created for the sake of drama… Is it that necessary to split hairs? The mutants are not a danger: they don’t exist outside comics. Real minorities aren’t dangerous in what they are, they can be in what they do… like the rest of people.

[Lucyinthesky]

The X-men are not supporting the behavoir of the "bad mutants" they have put a limit and a condition to their actions if they want to be part of Krakoa. Why is this seen as them supporting them? I don´t know, I guess nuance in storylines is something that´s been left behind but it´s still important to talk about the context before going around making up accusations of the X-men becoming villains when they are very happy just keeping to themselves and doing some good.



Also this is not the first time the X-men have been seen in a bad light by other marvel teams, going back to Secret Wars I and Avengers VS X-men I or even when they accepted Rogue as part of the team despite Ms Marvel protests. It´s just that we have not seen clearly this side of their stories for a while and some fans suppose that if not all the super teams are of one mind, they have become villains somehow but the stories in the MU do justify the X-men taking a different approch if we tackle all the decimation, IVX or even AvX stories together. No good writer would look at those stories and come to the conclusion the X-men have the best relationship with the other super teams or that they should keep acting the same way and expect to see a different result.

But I guess marvel marketing is also playing a part here, some years ago they really wanted to turn Scott into a villain but the stories never supported this, it was weird seeing Scott being evil incarnate in one poster and then being killed off by a gas who was killing all mutants and still be seen as the villain. The X-men are supposed to be a fringe team that still is heroic and looks for the good of everybody. Krakoa has not changed any of that.

That said I think the actual canon supports the idea of seeing once again different mutant teams being lead by X-men veterans.

[The92Ghost]

IDA. The X-men were always apart of almost every major Marvel event when Fox owned the movie rights. From Civil War, to Secret Invasion to Fear Itself to Secret Empire, they've always been utilized in some capacity. I dont think thats what he's referring to. It must be the smaller battles that happen within the monthly pages of the ongoings

Oh... I do not think that the X-Men can be in every little event that is happening across the MU, after all, they have a nation to protect, support and make flourish. They do intervene with the bigger events that are worldwide scale.