Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[BroHomo]

The point is: Krakoa is a fairy tale. Fairy tales are made to send out messages.
So far, Krakoa mimics the story of the legendary Atlantis and his proud Atlants.
This story is told to speak about hubris. If it goes until the end in the same way, the downfall is inevitable.

What? That they dare try to live in peace away from Flatscans??

You may well be correct , but it's a pretty depressing , nihilistic outlook .All our hopes , aspirations , dreams end with the grave.
Rather like Ozimandius.
Or Poe : for the play is the tragedy "life" and the hero the conqueror worm"
All true but very depressing.
Does depressing sell comic books ?

It seemingly does. I'm honestly curious why/if people who are 'counting down' Krakoa's Destruction read/enjoy the books

[Nigel909]

The point is: Krakoa is a fairy tale. Fairy tales are made to send out messages.
So far, Krakoa mimics the story of the legendary Atlantis and his proud Atlants.
This story is told to speak about hubris. If it goes until the end in the same way, the downfall is inevitable.

I may be wrong here it's been many , many years and my memory is not what it was , but don't some fairy tales have a happy ending ?

[Midnight_v]

I may be wrong here it's been many , many years and my memory is not what it was , but don't some fairy tales have a happy ending ?

No. Hell no. Fairytales have survivors mostly if you look at how they were at first.

Also this

Great points but I would say yes and no.
Yes all narratives have an end , but the narrative of the school , the mansion ,and the dream of peaceful coexistence lasted the best part of 60 years.
Is it unreasonable to hope that the narrative of building a mutant homeland could last some time ?
Doesn't the story of the Norse gods extend over hundreds (thousands ?) Of years ?
Modern day example of nation building could be Isreal . That story still continues.

Don't. Don't do that. Seriously thats not cool. That isn't a STORY that is what people refer to AS "HISTORY", which is a huge freaking difference from Avalon, Asgard, or Atlantis.
Thats not something being written for entertainment by one mans moral or narrative in a fictional story.

On the other notes though. Thanks. I try to think things through for good points without an emotional response at least MOST of the time.

1. No, its not unreasonable.
However... what that means and how its executed? The sustainability of such a narrative lives and dies there. i.e. "What kind of story is this".

2. The Story of the Norse gods In marvel or in real life? Because there are 2 different stories ther.
I'd like to clarify that point because in real life. I've ready placed my bet at 5 years and change countdown. See above.
In media res... You, I, and every reader understands that Moiras "Lives" are numbered. but if you want to count several lifetimes plus "THE FOREVER WAR" I'm pretty sure it lasts a few Millennia. Ymmv

BROHOMO
Are we being honest here? We're being hyperbolic aren't we? huh, good sir?

What? That they dare try to live in peace away from Flatscans??

Because... DID THEY? I meeeeen Did they really?
I'm gonna saaaaayy "KINDA, not really...?" Its NOT like they just absconded with every mutant overnight, and teleported every mutant detected by cerebro to the homeland wherever they're chilling having parties and orgies. Naaah, they've done a lot more than that.

It seemingly does. I'm honestly curious why/if people who are 'counting down' Krakoa's Destruction read/enjoy the books

I pride myself on being pretty damned honest, and more importantly fair. So to be fair Its hella interesting, but I'm NOT in LOVE with it.

Hick has a style, ma' man. And I don't frankly NEED to enjoy EVERY creative decision made to enjoy a well crafted tale.

Wanting to see krakoa destroyed, and " Reading/enjoying the books" In NO WAY ideas antithetical to each other. Best to try to keep that in mind as it gets steeper in the next months

Sometimes for many people the BEST part of seeing the heights of paradise is waiting to see how far is the fall (^_^)

Edit: I wanted to say why they have to fall, but I'll just stand on my comparison to the Aesir.
Ah well enjoy good people

[Nigel909]

No. Hell no. Fairytales have survivors mostly if you look at how they were at first.

Also this
Don't. Don't do that. Seriously thats not cool. That isn't a STORY that is what people refer to AS "HISTORY", which is a huge freaking difference from Avalon, Asgard, or Atlantis.
Thats not something being written for entertainment by one mans moral or narrative in a fictional story.

On the other notes though. Thanks. I try to think things through for good points without an emotional response at least MOST of the time.

1. No, its not unreasonable.
However... what that means and how its executed? The sustainability of such a narrative lives and dies there. i.e. "What kind of story is this"

No offence meant at all , but isn't all history , all human existence a story ? I think you might be confusing story and fiction. Many great stories are history , the terms are are not exclusive . In fact , I was thinking of the "story" of Henry the eighth and Thomas Moore earlier and their morality as seen from modern eyes. History but also a great story .Also consider " the greatest story ever told" .Many many people would consider calling that story fiction very offensive.
And are not " current affairs just an unfolding of a story ? Consider how the current corona virus "story" is unfolding .
In fact it you watch tv (I avoid it) I'm sure you'll have heard presenters refers to "news stories".

As I say , sorry to have caused offence but you seem to have taken the word story in the most unfavourable light. ( perhaps I should have stuck with the word narrative)

" All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players. "

Oh , and my addled brain has just remembered the phrase " and they all lived happily ever after"

All the very best.

[Chris0013]

Hasn't Apocalypse started with his Crucible?

Crucible is more of a "You were depowered...are you worthy to get your powers back?"

I am talking about a mutant with a really minor power like Jazz/John Zander. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/John_Zander_(Earth-616)

His mutation was that he just had blue skin. Not really someone who could be productive in combat unless he went thru extensive training in hand to hand and weapons. And how many mutants are like that? They are all not Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm or Dazzler.

[Nigel909]

Hi Midnight v
As far as the Norse gods are concerned , I was thinking in terms of the period of time covered by the original legends. (I always feel bad calling old religions legends )
In the real world I suppose it wouldn't take long at all to tell ! And I suppose as you say , not all that long in " Marvel " time.

As to Krakoas story I think I just really don't want to go back to the days of misery piled on misery piled on misery, so the longer it lasts the better.

All the best.

[Rev9]

Crucible is more of a "You were depowered...are you worthy to get your powers back?"

I am talking about a mutant with a really minor power like Jazz/John Zander. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/John_Zander_(Earth-616)

His mutation was that he just had blue skin. Not really someone who could be productive in combat unless he went thru extensive training in hand to hand and weapons. And how many mutants are like that? They are all not Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm or Dazzler.

Agree with Chris0013 there are also mutants Krakoa may have a problem with best examples being Leech and Fabian Cortez their powers are not 'comfortable' for Krakoa assuming Leech was depowered and wants his power back as a means of self defence on Krakoa.(lets assume he was bullied by humans and that has carried over as an insecurity).What does Apoc and the QC do? Do they grant him his wish or he is denied as useless to their cause and so 'no thanks you are better off human' or better yet just like pre cogs tell him 'we won't make you into a weapon against us,in case you fall into the wrong hands' A similar example could be Fabian Cortez, his power could supercharge others powers beyond 'safe levels' ,that is a problem for the QC so again what do they do? It's not as glamorous as Apoc wants everyone to beleive

[king of hybrids]

My biggest suspicion was that I Don’t think Life 6 Logan cleaned Librarian’s blood off his claws before stabbing Moira VI

There’s too many obvious enemies that are, effectively, old hat (Wanda, Sentinels, the X-Men rogues causing shenanigans) that it doesn’t fit with the new approach being taken

[Midnight_v]

No offence meant at all , but isn't all history , all human existence a story ? I think you might be confusing story and fiction.

I'm not confusing anything, but... I'll go as far as to say the trying to bring Isreal into this as we're talking about Asgard and Atlantis... is in poor taste.
I'll leave at that semantics aside.

As far as the Norse gods are concerned , I was thinking in terms of the period of time covered by the original legends. (I always feel bad calling old religions legends )
In the real world I suppose it wouldn't take long at all to tell ! And I suppose as you say , not all that long in " Marvel " time.

I feel you I know at least one guy who is a norse pagan today, but its still colloquially known as mythology so we're gonna go with that.
but did you miss the word "DON'T" in there somewhere? You DON'T want it to go back to misery on misery I take it.
Gotcha.

You know. . . I think there's an option that isn't "Misery on top of Misery" and "KROKOA".

I further think there are example of crazy people living out separatist fantasies both in real life and through this fiction. You can have a happiness state for mutants AND live a normal life among the humans, and the truth is there are a lot of people who agree with Xaviers dream and all that it would have took was for a writer to write "Xaviers dream. LIVES" and go down that path instead of the Maximus Lobo "Dominant Species" kick that theyr'e on right now.

The Sentinels are the same level of problem as Ultron, in the 90's people loved the X-men and the idea that humans and superheroes conflict isn't even limited to just the X-books.
In story it all boils down to 1. "We are your replacements" and 2. "What is the result of celestial manipulation" ... and now because of hickman asking questions its 3. Will A.i. be the thing that devours the universe. I mean damn, Mass Effect in full effect.

But there's a lot of no so quiet acceptance among the readership on the forums that makes me think I'm not sure they wanted superhero stories at all. . .

Personally I want:

Sunspot, Illyana Rasputin, and Mutliple Man ala Marvel's: The Justice League.

but this is what we got... we still don't have little kids growing up hoping to be mutants in the books like the way they'd want to be the avengers. etc etc.

[Nigel909]

I'm not confusing anything, but... I'll go as far as to say the trying to bring Isreal into this as we're talking about Asgard and Atlantis... is in poor taste.
I'll leave at that semantics aside.


I feel you I know at least one guy who is a norse pagan today, but its still colloquially known as mythology so we're gonna go with that.
but did you miss the word "DON'T" in there somewhere? You DON'T want it to go back to misery on misery I take it.
Gotcha.

You know. . . I think there's an option that isn't "Misery on top of Misery" and "KROKOA".

I further think there are example of crazy people living out separatist fantasies both in real life and through this fiction. You can have a happiness state for mutants AND live a normal life among the humans, and the truth is there
are a lot of people who agree with Xaviers dream and all that it would have took was for a writer to write "Xaviers dream. LIVES" and go down that path instead of the Maximus Lobo "Dominant Species" kick that theyr'e on right now.

The Sentinels are the same level of problem as Ultron, in the 90's people loved the X-men and the idea that humans and superheroes conflict isn't even limited to just the X-books.
In story it all boils down to 1. "We are your replacements" and 2. "What is the result of celestial manipulation" ... and now because of hickman asking questions its 3. Will A.i. be the thing that devours the universe. I mean damn, Mass Effect in full effect.

Hi Midnight v
I think I've finally clicked as to why I've caused offence . Sorry I really am getting slow and this is a very new way of comunicating for me.
I used Isreal as an example simply because it's a relatively new country and people on this forum have used it as a parallel to the mutants experience ( a persecuted people we hoping to a homeland)
I can see that juxtaposing that with stories of fictional nations destined for destruction is a problem.
Again my apologies.

My point was simply that building a nation takes time and in the case I the fictional Krakoa ,could if the writers chose , take many years.

Perhaps the EU would have been a better example ? Or not ?

Anyway
All the best

[Kisinith]

... we still don't have little kids growing up hoping to be mutants in the books like the way they'd want to be the avengers. etc etc.

Isn't that the more or less the plot of the upcoming "Children of the Atom" book?

[ZuLuLu]

Crucible is more of a "You were depowered...are you worthy to get your powers back?"

I am talking about a mutant with a really minor power like Jazz/John Zander. https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/John_Zander_(Earth-616)

His mutation was that he just had blue skin. Not really someone who could be productive in combat unless he went thru extensive training in hand to hand and weapons. And how many mutants are like that? They are all not Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm or Dazzler.

In HoX 6 Xavier says “all Mutants--*by birth*--can claim Krakoan citizenship.” This means whether the have been de-powered or not and from what I have read the only way to fail The Crucible is giving up in a fight against Apocalypse. Other than precogs there have been no stipulation based on type of powers whether or not a mutant can take part The Crucible.

So I guess if Jazz/John Zander was willing to take part in The Crucible to regain his blue skin he would be allowed.

Giving that he is dead I am sure they are in no rush to resurrect him because his powers are limited.

That said as the fight for control and power in Krakoa develop I can see someone resurrecting mutants like Jazz/John Zander and granting them gifts, in terms of additional powers.

I think this is where the Wills will come into play down the road.

[Metal Sphere]

Isn't that the more or less the plot of the upcoming "Children of the Atom" book?

That's what we suspect it'll be going by the solicits, but they might also be mutant children who want Forge-tech to have the powers of their heroes. I know a good chunk of the X-Books board is unhappy with the idea that it's a bunch of human kids "cosplaying", when the idea of human children aspiring to be heroes like certain X-Men has so much narrative potential. And that's not even going into the wider implications that the younger generation of humans maybe aren't as afraid of humans as their elders.

But something Zelena said really struck a chord with me: I do think the current state of Krakoa is destined to fail in spectacular fashion, and THAT will become like a fairy tale or cautionary tale in future stories. I think Charles is going to be vindicated at the end of all this, seeing as how the entire foundation of this run is that humans will never live peacefully with mutants.

[Nigel909]

In HoX 6 Xavier says “all Mutants--*by birth*--can claim Krakoan citizenship.” This means whether the have been de-powered or not and from what I have read the only way to fail The Crucible is giving up in a fight against Apocalypse. Other than precogs there have been no stipulation based on type of powers whether or not a mutant can take part The Crucible.

So I guess if Jazz/John Zander was willing to take part in The Crucible to regain his blue skin he would be allowed.

Giving that he is dead I am sure they are in no rush to resurrect him because his powers are limited.

That said as the fight for control and power in Krakoa develop I can see someone resurrecting mutants like Jazz/John Zander and granting them gifts, in terms of additional powers.

I think this is where the Wills will come into play down the road.

Just looked up John Sander and Toad Boy. What a depressing little story !
It really emphasises the gulf between our model like hero's and the mutant on the street.

[Zelena]

You may well be correct , but it's a pretty depressing , nihilistic outlook .All our hopes , aspirations , dreams end with the grave.

Unless you believe in a after-life, isn't that our common fate?

Rather like Ozimandius.
Or Poe : for the play is the tragedy "life" and the hero the conqueror worm"
All true but very depressing.
Does depressing sell comic books ?

The religions have tried to find a more acceptable outcome.
The Ancients, on the other hand, believed that you can create a form of immortality through fame: the most heroic, courageous you are, more likely your name will be repeated throughout the ages with the stories of your exploits.
Ozymandias is a sad king: nobody remembers him.

It don't know if it's depressing but comics don't make it easy for their characters: it's the true Crucible and it gives them the opportunity to show who they are.

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