Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Gray Lensman]

Xavier's dream works fine. Its outside forces like editors insisting that mutant numbers need to be reduced that make things not work.

Editors aren't really a villain that works well on the page though. Except maybe in a book ending in 'pool'.

Outside of that they cant really be used as an in story reason except as a cameo - Stan Lee was used as the model for Funky Flashman by Jack Kirby, and I am half expecting a Nightwing villain who looks an awful lot like Didio. But they still won't be called by those names.

[Nigel909]

But here's the thing, it's not like Moira's futures were great for human beings either. In her futures, absolutely no one wins.

The other issue is that, as Hickman bas shown us, the Krakoa method really isn't helping. They have more enemies than ever before.

Yes and no to that one.

Part of the plan is to avoid war and thus delay the rise of the machine , and as you point out accumulating multiple enemies does we a bit of a failure.

On the other hand their economic plans seem to be working out. (Though not without some spanners in the works !)

And yes , Moiras futures have a bad outcome for humans as well , and I think Xavier wants to avoid a " cyberman" future for humans as much as he wants mutant survival.

[Nigel909]

That's not life, it's existence and betrays everything the X-men are supposed to stand for. That's the "death" with Krakatoa, it's Xavier's dream he let his greatest enemies snuff it out. I think what Hickman's going for will be a third option, which hasn't been explained. I expect the X-men to suffer tragic losses in the coming years, like the Avengers did.

But if (yeah ok , a big if ) it leads to a happy future for mutant mind , and avoids a fate worse than death for humans (cybermen) why not ?

And never forget the orgies .

It could be argued that clinging to your principles , and thereby condemning everybody to death is selfish.



Actually , in those circumstances , abandoning your principals might be considered a moral imperative ?
Any moral philosophers on the forum ?

[Steel Inquisitor]

But if (yeah ok , a big if ) it leads to a happy future for mutant mind , and avoids a fate worse than death for humans (cybermen) why not ?

And never forget the orgies .

It could be argued that clinging to your principles , and thereby condemning everybody to death is selfish.

We know it won't, Hickman's given that away right off. Hundred years pass and like any other bad future it's a dystopia of endless war. With many of the same people, like Nimrod.

Unless the orgies are contingent on having an alliance with their greatest enemies they could have done that without turning into villains themselves.

It may be selfish, but it's better to go down fighting than selling out to their rogues gallery of mutant supremacists. They're not being the X-men anymore, they're lackies to the various bands of super-villains they fought over the years. How is that "winning?" Xavier's dream didn't die because someone destroying it, they did it themselves and for what? Why not make it offical and rename themselves the Brotherhood of Mutants, Hellfire Club or Marauders, that's what they are now.

[numberthirty]

But if (yeah ok , a big if ) it leads to a happy future for mutant mind , and avoids a fate worse than death for humans (cybermen) why not ?

And never forget the orgies .

It could be argued that clinging to your principles , and thereby condemning everybody to death is selfish.



Actually , in those circumstances , abandoning your principals might be considered a moral imperative ?
Any moral philosophers on the forum ?

Just enough to know that it would actually be "Principles..." in this instance.

[Nigel909]

Just enough to know that it would actually be "Principles..." in this instance.

Ha, fair point , never strong at spelling , too old to change now !
Have to say the autocorrect is more of a hindrance than a help !

[Knives]

I still see everyone who is against Krakoa saying the same thing, but so far no one has managed to give a satisfactory answer to the problem.

Personally I am not surprised the plot has a good construction even though many are dissatisfied with the attitude of some of the X-men or believe that it will have a catastrophic result in the future (which is probably true) they cannot deny the benefits that the mutants have at the moment. For it is impossible to go against the contradiction that if Krakoa did not exist, mutants would continue to be killed and persecuted.

What many find it so difficult to accept is that even knowing that perhaps a war in the future is inevitable, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages .

It is like Israel and Palestine a conflict that no one can achieve a lasting peace due to the nature of the problem. At most a temporary peace is the best that can be achieved besides avoiding mutual destruction but the conflict will always be there in one way or another.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I still see everyone who is against Krakoa saying the same thing, but so far no one has managed to give a satisfactory answer to the problem.

The status quo is written so that we don't know all the options, this will be years in the making and we're in Year One. We don't know the full consequences on mutant society will be in the present, we do know it won't be pretty - as the Crucible foreshadows. That's just the beginning. The Quiet Council appears to be Krakatoan Illuminati. Here's what happened with the Illuminati, Xavier was a member in this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_(comics)

Personally I am not surprised the plot has a good construction even though many are dissatisfied with the attitude of some of the X-men or believe that it will have a catastrophic result in the future (which is probably true) they cannot deny the benefits that the mutants have at the moment. For it is impossible to go against the contradiction that if Krakoa did not exist, mutants would continue to be killed and persecuted.

What about the downsides which have been mentioned? Directly threatening leaders from various human nations that they're going to conquer them by using the system against them, from Magneto himself, is not something a group does unless they want war with humanity. It'd do the opposite. Magneto being allow to do this as their "face" is all but daring humanity to start up their Sentinel programs again. Mutants are going to be continued to be killed on Kraktoa anyway, it'll just be by Apocalypse hands rather than humanity in a ritual which indoctrinates them to his ideology of mutant supremacy.

What many find it so difficult to accept is that even knowing that perhaps a war in the future is inevitable, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages .

This posits that they are no disadvantages to this alliance when that's not not true.

It is like Israel and Palestine a conflict that no one can achieve a lasting peace due to the nature of the problem. At most a temporary peace is the best that can be achieved besides avoiding mutual destruction but the conflict will always be there in one way or another.

This isn't a temporary peace about what Xavier's dream was about, it was about making peace with humans not with his mutant enemies. Israel and Palestine ins't a good example to describe what Krakatoa is. I don't think we have anything in our world like it.

[Rosebunse]

I still see everyone who is against Krakoa saying the same thing, but so far no one has managed to give a satisfactory answer to the problem.

Personally I am not surprised the plot has a good construction even though many are dissatisfied with the attitude of some of the X-men or believe that it will have a catastrophic result in the future (which is probably true) they cannot deny the benefits that the mutants have at the moment. For it is impossible to go against the contradiction that if Krakoa did not exist, mutants would continue to be killed and persecuted.

What many find it so difficult to accept is that even knowing that perhaps a war in the future is inevitable, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages .

It is like Israel and Palestine a conflict that no one can achieve a lasting peace due to the nature of the problem. At most a temporary peace is the best that can be achieved besides avoiding mutual destruction but the conflict will always be there in one way or another.

What you see as us not appreciating good things in the moment, we see as wanting to know their future price, how they effect things in the future.

[Nigel909]

What you see as us not appreciating good things in the moment, we see as wanting to know their future price, how they effect things in the future.

Perhaps your right , maybe we should not strive for a better future because we will never know the full cost until it's too late.

Look at the damage we've already caused with the likes of antibiotics , internal combustion engines ,plastics , pesticides ,our endless demand for electricity. The environmental costs of irrigation .

Maybe we should have stayed in the 17th century and never tried to improve , because it looks like the cost of our event comfort is extinction.

[scourge]

I still see everyone who is against Krakoa saying the same thing, but so far no one has managed to give a satisfactory answer to the problem.

Personally I am not surprised the plot has a good construction even though many are dissatisfied with the attitude of some of the X-men or believe that it will have a catastrophic result in the future (which is probably true) they cannot deny the benefits that the mutants have at the moment. For it is impossible to go against the contradiction that if Krakoa did not exist, mutants would continue to be killed and persecuted.

What many find it so difficult to accept is that even knowing that perhaps a war in the future is inevitable, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages .

It is like Israel and Palestine a conflict that no one can achieve a lasting peace due to the nature of the problem. At most a temporary peace is the best that can be achieved besides avoiding mutual destruction but the conflict will always be there in one way or another.

Sure looks like they're still being killed and persecuted even with Krakoa.

People keep acting like this isn't just same stuff we hated before in a creepy new suit.

[Knives]

The status quo is written so that we don't know all the options, this will be years in the making and we're in Year One. We don't know the full consequences on mutant society will be in the present, we do know it won't be pretty - as the Crucible foreshadows. That's just the beginning. The Quiet Council appears to be Krakatoan Illuminati. Here's what happened with the Illuminati, Xavier was a member in this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati_(comics)


What about the downsides which have been mentioned? Directly threatening leaders from various human nations that they're going to conquer them by using the system against them, from Magneto himself, is not something a group does unless they want war with humanity. It'd do the opposite. Magneto being allow to do this as their "face" is all but daring humanity to start up their Sentinel programs again. Mutants are going to be continued to be killed on Kraktoa anyway, it'll just be by Apocalypse hands rather than humanity in a ritual which indoctrinates them to his ideology of mutant supremacy.


This posits that they are no disadvantages to this alliance when that's not not true.

This isn't a temporary peace about what Xavier's dream was about, it was about making peace with humans not with his mutant enemies. Israel and Palestine ins't a good example to describe what Krakatoa is. I don't think we have anything in our world like it.

I know the Illuminattis well or it would be better to say all their old and current versions. And although I admit that there are many similarities the difference is that Krakoa does not want to control the world but to ensure that mutants are not extinct by giving them a safe place. From the Council's point of view they will intervene in the human world only to protect Krakoa's interests and protect mutants as the rest of the humans are free to think and do whatever they want. And on the secret side to prevent the bad futures that happened to Moira.

And even admitting that the Illuminati over the years did a lot of bad things, that doesn't change the fact that they had to deal with problems that nobody had a solution like secret wars.

Which brings us back to the issue, you pointed out several problems in Krakoa but did not solve the plot problem. How to prevent another mutant genocide without krakoa? How to prevent the futures that Moira saw using Xavier's peaceful dream?

What would you do differently if you were Xavier or Magneto or Moira with the knowledge you have?

We not have anything like Krakoa in the real world ? Well, I disagree aside from the fantastic part of the comics, I see Krakoa doing exactly the same thing that other countries do, like controlling world trade in their favor, making peace and trade treaties and defending their borders and their people. Everything else that you pointed out is the price to be paid and I imagine that at least for now it is a fair price for security and stability for mutants.


The program of Sentinels and AI are a constant even without Magneto or Krakoa their appearance is something that has always existed in one way or another according to Moira's memories. So the speech about Magneto pitting humans against mutants is not valid since the Sentinels and the persecution of mutants always happens like humans chasing humans. Magneto died in one of Moira's visions and yet the war with humanity and the Sentinels happened the same way so Magneto is not a major factor in preventing the bad futures that Moira saw.

[People Of The Earth]

I still see everyone who is against Krakoa saying the same thing, but so far no one has managed to give a satisfactory answer to the problem.

I gave one: the X-Men should have renounced the name the same way they renounced Xavier's dream.
Most of the controversy wouldn't have happened then.

Personally I am not surprised the plot has a good construction even though many are dissatisfied with the attitude of some of the X-men or believe that it will have a catastrophic result in the future (which is probably true) they cannot deny the benefits that the mutants have at the moment. For it is impossible to go against the contradiction that if Krakoa did not exist, mutants would continue to be killed and persecuted.

Also, just pointing out that mutants are still killed and persecuted down to be targets on the main island itself, despite Krakoa's existence, and sometimes, because of its existence… so yeah.

What many find it so difficult to accept is that even knowing that perhaps a war in the future is inevitable, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages .

A war happening in the future means this period of time would be a small respite at best before yet another extinction.
Not endearing.
And does selling out their beliefs to ally themselves with villains is an acceptable cost in order to get it?
I Don't think it is, personally.

It is like Israel and Palestine a conflict that no one can achieve a lasting peace due to the nature of the problem. At most a temporary peace is the best that can be achieved besides avoiding mutual destruction but the conflict will always be there in one way or another.

This is Nothing alike the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, beyond surface-level similarities. I wouldn't compare both.

[Knives]

I gave one: the X-Men should have renounced the name the same way they renounced Xavier's dream.
Most of the controversy wouldn't have happened then.

Also, just pointing out that mutants are still killed and persecuted down to be targets on the main island itself, despite Krakoa's existence, and sometimes, because of its existence… so yeah.

A war happening in the future means this period of time would be a small respite at best before yet another extinction.
Not endearing.
And does selling out their beliefs to ally themselves with villains is an acceptable cost in order to get it?
I Don't think it is, personally.

This is Nothing alike the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, beyond surface-level similarities. I wouldn't compare both.

I don't see how the X-men not using the name would change the opinion of the people here. However as far as I know the X-men continue to protect the world that hates and fears them that hasn't changed even now with Krakoa.

The difference is that at least now mutants don't have to die to do this. Schools are not blown up and every mutant who dies in a terrorist attack can be brought back. As far as I can remember, the mutants never had so much power or protection against their enemies.

On the other hand, without Krakoa, would there be any change in the status quo?

Again everyone points to the problems in Krakoa that any country has to deal with. But I don't see anyone saying that the United States or North Korea should cease to exist even though they do what Krakoa does every day.

As for the villains, tell me how to survive a possible war with humans or machines without Magneto or Apocalypse?

[Zelena]

Perhaps your right , maybe we should not strive for a better future because we will never know the full cost until it's too late.

Look at the damage we've already caused with the likes of antibiotics , internal combustion engines ,plastics , pesticides ,our endless demand for electricity. The environmental costs of irrigation .

Maybe we should have stayed in the 17th century and never tried to improve , because it looks like the cost of our event comfort is extinction.

Atlantis was a cautionary tale about the dangers of pride and overconfidence.
It isn't forbidden to be cautious and not generalize an innovation before seeing all the pros and the cons.
Trees have been removed from the fields, before seeing it causes a loss a fertility, and now some farmers are planting them again.

Now, what Krakoa is useful for us, humans? Is it just a distraction made by a showrunner? Or is it made to tell something?
Before, X-men comics was about the values of courage, friendship and perseverance: I understood what the author wanted to tell me. It was bigger than survival (a goal that once it is reached, doesn't mean nothing, this is the end of the story).