Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[LordUltimus]

Or not, because its a comic book not a sociological dissertation on making a new country for people with superpowers.
We don't need to see their toilets and plumbing. We don't need to see the grocery stores. We don't need to see the accounting and tax preparation. We don't need to see 3+ hours in customs and immigration every time they want to go to New York. This is a medium where the majority of problems are solved with martial arts and laser beams, its ok to let some of the minutia go by.

I thought that was what the infodump pages were for.

[Metal Sphere]

I thought that was what the infodump pages were for.

Yeah, the infodump pages serve to provide interesting pieces of worldbuilding. Stuff like addressing the thorny topic of national sovereignty vs Krakaoan gates would be very interesting. Because as it appears now, Krakoa has tentacles into sovereign nations while the rest of the planet is forbidden to step foot on Krakoa. Maybe it's as simple as the Quiet Council not respecting flatscan ideas or borders? No one gives a damn about chimpanzee territorial borders, for example.

[BroHomo]

Or not, because its a comic book not a sociological dissertation on making a new country for people with superpowers.
We don't need to see their toilets and plumbing. We don't need to see the grocery stores. We don't need to see the accounting and tax preparation. We don't need to see 3+ hours in customs and immigration every time they want to go to New York. This is a medium where the majority of problems are solved with martial arts and laser beams, its ok to let some of the minutia go by.

This is Amazing

[Chris0013]

Or not, because its a comic book not a sociological dissertation on making a new country for people with superpowers.
We don't need to see their toilets and plumbing. We don't need to see the grocery stores. We don't need to see the accounting and tax preparation. We don't need to see 3+ hours in customs and immigration every time they want to go to New York. This is a medium where the majority of problems are solved with martial arts and laser beams, its ok to let some of the minutia go by.

They don't need to show it all repeatedly. Give us a few pages of a small country...maybe Switzerland...making a public announcement and destroying all gates except one. The last one is enclosed and has power dampeners set up around it. When a group of mutants comes thru they are told they can come and go...but will be treated like anyone else and have to go thru customs. How do the mutants respond? Do they respect the law? Do they throw a hissy fit? How does the rest of the world react? Do other countries start doing this too?

Not everyone is looking for martial arts and laser beams on a constant basis.

[jonincentex]

The Crucible is just ritualized assisted suicide. Mutants have gotten powers back before this....why not just adapt one of those methods? Unless Apocalypse enjoys killing them.

It's ritualized assisted suicide dressed up in ceremony to disguise the fact that it's purpose is to allow Apocalypse to indulge in his favorite pastime murdering people.

[jonincentex]

With Apocalypse himself on the inside. Despite his known past he's quite adept at exploiting political power to his advantage and being a crucial influence on Krakatoa, domestic and abroad.

The Apocalypse on Krakoa is NOT the same Apocalypse from the timeline that sugarman, dark beast and a couple of other came from. It's not even clear if the Apocalypse on Krakoa knows anything about what happened in the alternate timeline.

So while you are right about Apocalypse generally speaking, him being the inside man for them doesn't really make any sense.

[jonincentex]

I mean aren't you trying to use the same black and white mentality that you're acccusing the other poster of using tho? Krakoa as a Nation isn't doing anything that other countries haven't done. A nation will act in it's own best interest as was spoken in X-Men #4 to pretend otherwise is folly. Like you said their are things about Krakoa to be applauded and their are things to be critiqued.

You write that as if you are certain it's fact, but it's nothing more than a groundless assumption to believe every nation has done things that Krakoa's major players are doing.

Other than WWII era Germany and Japan, I really can't think of many nations that had agents, policies that condoned vivisecting vanquished opponents like Apocalypse did to Le Fey.

Because it seems you are not historically well-informed you are oblivious to the fact that the nationalism and language the Krakoans used to justify their claim to being homo superior is very similar to Hitler's assertion of German superiority in Mein Kampf vs a vs the inferior races of the world. The brief glimpse of the indoctrination classes of mutant children a chilling call back to those days.

That similarity is what makes a lot of readers uncomfortable.

Putting it a comic book context where comic book nations are just as bad doesn't make the vile origins of those beliefs disappear.

For those more historically informed, there is no way the ideology that brought us WWII can become benign even good no matter what the cause is. To most people more aware of history the origins of those words are so unacceptable any attempt to repurpose those words to serve the mutant cause just exposes the evil motivations of Hickman's mutants.

You seem to be one of the exceptions. You can't see anything bad about using the ideology of Mein Kampf albeit cleaned up and sanitized and repurposed to serve as the guiding ideals of the new mutant nation.

You can't in part, because you wrongly assume all nations are just as evil (in the comic world and seemingly in the real world too) and for that reason,two evils make a right.

[loke13]

You write that as if you are certain it's fact, but it's nothing more than a groundless assumption to believe every nation has done things that Krakoa's major players are doing.

Other than WWII era Germany and Japan, I really can't think of many nations that had agents, policies that condoned vivisecting vanquished opponents like Apocalypse did to Le Fey.

Because it seems you are not historically well-informed you are oblivious to the fact that the nationalism and language the Krakoans used to justify their claim to being homo superior is very similar to Hitler's assertion of German superiority in Mein Kampf vs a vs the inferior races of the world. The brief glimpse of the indoctrination classes of mutant children a chilling call back to those days.

That similarity is what makes a lot of readers uncomfortable.

Putting it a comic book context where comic book nations are just as bad doesn't make the vile origins of those beliefs disappear.

For those more historically informed, there is no way the ideology that brought us WWII can become benign even good no matter what the cause is. To most people more aware of history the origins of those words are so unacceptable any attempt to repurpose those words to serve the mutant cause just exposes the evil motivations of Hickman's mutants.

You seem to be one of the exceptions. You can't see anything bad about using the ideology of Mein Kampf albeit cleaned up and sanitized and repurposed to serve as the guiding ideals of the new mutant nation.

You can't in part, because you wrongly assume all nations are just as evil (in the comic world and seemingly in the real world too) and for that reason,two evils make a right.

Yeah, no. Nice try trying to compare a minority group pushed to the brink of extinction MULTIPLE times to World War II Germany and Nazism. We're not talking about "Krakoa's major players" we're talking about Krakoa the nation and government. You trying to paint the mutant Nations new-found sense of nationalism as a slippery slope argument for putting humans into concentration camps is honestly laughable because that's the exact opposite of what's been shown in these books.

Now that's not to say that they haven't done some morally questionable actions already but like... is there any country in this world that has the moral high ground? Krakoas Inception was literally started by developing drugs that would benefit humanity and then bartering with the nations of the world in order to be recognized.

And for the record you keep using terms like "evil" which is why I say you you are thinking in the same black and white terms that you condemn the other poster for doing.

[BroHomo]

It's ritualized assisted suicide dressed up in ceremony to disguise the fact that it's purpose is to allow Apocalypse to indulge in his favorite pastime murdering people.

Annnd what exactly is wrong with that? And how exactly do you now thats his favorite passtime?I woulda thought it would be laughing maniacally

Other than WWII era Germany and Japan, I really can't think of many nations that had agents, policies that condoned vivisecting vanquished opponents like Apocalypse did to Le Fey.

Well there was the Case of Henrietta Lacks 1950s, The unnecessary hysterectomies of mostly Puerto Rican women in 1970s, and theTuskegee Syphilis experiments that went on for like 40+ years.

Because it seems you are not historically well-informed you are oblivious to the fact that the nationalism and language the Krakoans used to justify their claim to being homo superior is very similar to Hitler's assertion of German superiority in Mein Kampf vs a vs the inferior races of the world. The brief glimpse of the indoctrination classes of mutant children a chilling call back to those days.

What indoctrination classes? You talking bout the campfire story Exodus told? Geeeez Dude how limber are you cause that is a stretch if Ive ever seen one. I meeean Exodus is taking oh so common story' of the Majority putting a minority group through literal hell and turning it from a crime against said group that would leave them to be embarrassed or pitied Into a story that empowers and inspires them to be prideful of their background. How is that in anyway like the racial lies found in Mein Kempf?

That similarity is what makes a lot of readers uncomfortable.

The fact that a lot of readers are getting that from this book is uncomfortable. But I guess its not making them toooo uncomfortable as every new issue they have the same complaints as they had last month....and the month before that. It must be cathartic?

For those more historically informed, there is no way the ideology that brought us WWII can become benign even good no matter what the cause is. To most people more aware of history the origins of those words are so unacceptable any attempt to repurpose those words to serve the mutant cause just exposes the evil motivations of Hickman's mutants.

Yes because that is exactly what is happening here...lol. Ive yet to hear any KroKoa discourse that is far off from what Coaches instil in their athletes, or how the Military handles new recruits. Or a Pastor crowing about His God/Religion Or hell Americas own President when hes having a tactful day.

You seem to be one of the exceptions. You can't see anything bad about using the ideology of Mein Kampf albeit cleaned up and sanitized and repurposed to serve as the guiding ideals of the new mutant nation.

Yes because the ideology that could spark almost an entire people to energetically contribute to the extinction of a people...would do the same for a country of people who survived one.

You can't in part, because you wrongly assume all nations are just as evil (in the comic world and seemingly in the real world too) and for that reason,two evils make a right.

Dude that's some pretty big Assumptions you're throwing around.

[Kisinith]

You write that as if you are certain it's fact, but it's nothing more than a groundless assumption to believe every nation has done things that Krakoa's major players are doing.

Other than WWII era Germany and Japan, I really can't think of many nations that had agents, policies that condoned vivisecting vanquished opponents like Apocalypse did to Le Fey.

Because it seems you are not historically well-informed you are oblivious to the fact that the nationalism and language the Krakoans used to justify their claim to being homo superior is very similar to Hitler's assertion of German superiority in Mein Kampf vs a vs the inferior races of the world. The brief glimpse of the indoctrination classes of mutant children a chilling call back to those days.

That similarity is what makes a lot of readers uncomfortable.

Putting it a comic book context where comic book nations are just as bad doesn't make the vile origins of those beliefs disappear.

For those more historically informed, there is no way the ideology that brought us WWII can become benign even good no matter what the cause is. To most people more aware of history the origins of those words are so unacceptable any attempt to repurpose those words to serve the mutant cause just exposes the evil motivations of Hickman's mutants.

You seem to be one of the exceptions. You can't see anything bad about using the ideology of Mein Kampf albeit cleaned up and sanitized and repurposed to serve as the guiding ideals of the new mutant nation.

You can't in part, because you wrongly assume all nations are just as evil (in the comic world and seemingly in the real world too) and for that reason,two evils make a right.

Funny, I'm a history teacher and I think I have a pretty good grasp on world history, and I disagree with almost every single thing you posted.

USA Lynching
USA Trail of Tears
UK Opium Wars
UK Partition of India
UK Bengal Famine of 1942
France French Torture in Algerian War
Belgium Belgian Congo
Australia Stolen Generations
Canada... yeah even Canada Killings of indigenous women and girls
Canada... Again? forcibly removing aboriginal children from their families for schooling

This is also by no means a complete list this was a quick 5 minutes to find the links, its also consciously only going back to the nineteenth century and not even touching upon slavery in the USA. This also is only concerned with the real world not the MU where near as can be determined every single country participated in the purchase of mutant killing Murder-bots after Genosha.

Thinking there is something wrong with Krakoa... fair, plenty of things to rouse suspicion.
Not happy with the villains... fair, they do have a history.

Comparing anyone post industrial revolution (except maybe the Soviet Union) to the Nazi's is laughable.

[Steel Inquisitor]

The Apocalypse on Krakoa is NOT the same Apocalypse from the timeline that sugarman, dark beast and a couple of other came from. It's not even clear if the Apocalypse on Krakoa knows anything about what happened in the alternate timeline.

So while you are right about Apocalypse generally speaking, him being the inside man for them doesn't really make any sense.

Have you read anything abut Apocalypse in 616? He may be "nicer" at present but don't mistake that for weakness. He made his bones playing the long game and manipulating people. It would make sense if this is an act for him to reach out to them for accomplices.

Here's the following events of what he did in the 2000's. When he was reborn via Techno organic virus he creates new Horsemen, comes to the X-Mansion making famine use their powers to weaken the X-men so they'll take his blood as an antidote and make him a mutant messiah. After that he confronts the leaders at the United Nations with an ultimatum: he'll destroy 90% of the world's population, ensuring humanity and mutants are on equal terms to fight for the survival of the fittest or he'll unleash a plague which will destroy humanity.

In the "Heroic Age" versions of Apocalypse and the Four Horsemen attack Avengers Tower when Kang breaks time. Fantomex clones him into a teenager to be raised in the X-men's Academy (Evan), during the "AXIS" storyline he's aged to adulthood he leads an uprising of mutants against Avengers Tower, to detonate a Celestial-based Gene-bomb to wipe out every human on Earth and is only stopped by Carnage sacrificing himself. Deadpool convinces Evan to stop by saying that everyone liked Evan and hated Apocalypse and the two ran away together.

The "Apocalypse Wars" had the X-men travel thousands of years into the future finding a destroyed New York City, where Apocalypse had conquered the world. It worked like this: those who survived certain trials lived under his rule and it was a world tied to his health with the Four Horseman acting as his "antibodies."

After that his body degenerated and he put his consciousness into human hosts, he got to his fourth, and he becomes fully human in the process. When he found the perfect host he killed the rest of the human test subjects and destroyed the island he was on which had been altered by is experiments.

What people aren't understanding about Apocalypse is that he's not a modern terrorist or criminal he's from a much older, primitive lens where all that mattered was domination and death. Don't think of him in terms of modern philosophy or culture, and he's shown he hasn't regressed in these stances, like human sacrifices, gladiator bouts and cult indoctrination. The Crucible shows he still continues these beliefs.

I haven't gone into what he was doing before all this.

You want me to trust this person with the future of mutant kind? No thanks. He makes Magneto and Shaw look like petty school bullies when it comes to super villainy.

Apoc didn't give up his ideas about mutant supremacy and Might Makes Right, the X-Men adopted that.

[Steel Inquisitor]

The Apocalypse on Krakoa is NOT the same Apocalypse from the timeline that sugarman, dark beast and a couple of other came from. It's not even clear if the Apocalypse on Krakoa knows anything about what happened in the alternate timeline.

So while you are right about Apocalypse generally speaking, him being the inside man for them doesn't really make any sense.

Have you read anything abut Apocalypse in 616? He may be "nicer" at present but don't mistake that for weakness. He made his bones playing the long game and manipulating people. It would make sense if this is an act for him to reach out to them for accomplices.


Edit: This is more for the people in this thread who want us to trust the guy who put the Apocalypse in Age of Apocalypse.

220px-Xmenalpha.jpg

Here's the following events of what he did in the 2000's. When he was reborn via Techno organic virus he creates new Horsemen, comes to the X-Mansion making famine use their powers to weaken the X-men so they'll take his blood as an antidote and make him a mutant messiah. After that he confronts the leaders at the United Nations with an ultimatum: he'll destroy 90% of the world's population, ensuring humanity and mutants are on equal terms to fight for the survival of the fittest or he'll unleash a plague which will destroy humanity.

In the "Heroic Age" versions of Apocalypse and the Four Horsemen attack Avengers Tower when Kang breaks time. Fantomex clones him into a teenager to be raised in the X-men's Academy (Evan), during the "AXIS" storyline he's aged to adulthood he leads an uprising of mutants against Avengers Tower, to detonate a Celestial-based Gene-bomb to wipe out every human on Earth and is only stopped by Carnage sacrificing himself. Deadpool convinces Evan to stop by saying that everyone liked Evan and hated Apocalypse and the two ran away together.

The "Apocalypse Wars" had the X-men travel thousands of years into the future finding a destroyed New York City, where Apocalypse had conquered the world. It worked like this: those who survived certain trials lived under his rule and it was a world tied to his health with the Four Horseman acting as his "antibodies."

After that his body degenerated and he put his consciousness into human hosts, he got to his fourth, and he becomes fully human in the process. When he found the perfect host he killed the rest of the human test subjects and destroyed the island he was on which had been altered by is experiments.

What people aren't understanding about Apocalypse is that he's not a modern terrorist or criminal he's from a much older, primitive lens where all that mattered was domination and death. Don't think of him in terms of modern philosophy or culture, and he's shown he hasn't regressed in these stances, like human sacrifices, gladiator bouts and cult indoctrination. The Crucible shows he still continues these beliefs.

I haven't gone into what he was doing before all this.

You want me to trust this person with the future of mutant kind? No thanks. He makes Magneto and Shaw look like petty school bullies when it comes to super villainy.

Apoc didn't give up his ideas about mutant supremacy and Might Makes Right, the X-Men adopted that.

[Zelena]

Have you read anything abut Apocalypse in 616? He may be "nicer" at present but don't mistake that for weakness. He made his bones playing the long game and manipulating people. It would make sense if this is an act for him to reach out to them for accomplices.


Edit: This is more for the people in this thread who want us to trust the guy who put the Apocalypse in Age of Apocalypse.

220px-Xmenalpha.jpg

Here's the following events of what he did in the 2000's. When he was reborn via Techno organic virus he creates new Horsemen, comes to the X-Mansion making famine use their powers to weaken the X-men so they'll take his blood as an antidote and make him a mutant messiah. After that he confronts the leaders at the United Nations with an ultimatum: he'll destroy 90% of the world's population, ensuring humanity and mutants are on equal terms to fight for the survival of the fittest or he'll unleash a plague which will destroy humanity.

In the "Heroic Age" versions of Apocalypse and the Four Horsemen attack Avengers Tower when Kang breaks time. Fantomex clones him into a teenager to be raised in the X-men's Academy (Evan), during the "AXIS" storyline he's aged to adulthood he leads an uprising of mutants against Avengers Tower, to detonate a Celestial-based Gene-bomb to wipe out every human on Earth and is only stopped by Carnage sacrificing himself. Deadpool convinces Evan to stop by saying that everyone liked Evan and hated Apocalypse and the two ran away together.

The "Apocalypse Wars" had the X-men travel thousands of years into the future finding a destroyed New York City, where Apocalypse had conquered the world. It worked like this: those who survived certain trials lived under his rule and it was a world tied to his health with the Four Horseman acting as his "antibodies."

After that his body degenerated and he put his consciousness into human hosts, he got to his fourth, and he becomes fully human in the process. When he found the perfect host he killed the rest of the human test subjects and destroyed the island he was on which had been altered by is experiments.

What people aren't understanding about Apocalypse is that he's not a modern terrorist or criminal he's from a much older, primitive lens where all that mattered was domination and death. Don't think of him in terms of modern philosophy or culture, and he's shown he hasn't regressed in these stances, like human sacrifices, gladiator bouts and cult indoctrination. The Crucible shows he still continues these beliefs.

I haven't gone into what he was doing before all this.

You want me to trust this person with the future of mutant kind? No thanks. He makes Magneto and Shaw look like petty school bullies when it comes to super villainy.

Apoc didn't give up his ideas about mutant supremacy and Might Makes Right, the X-Men adopted that.

I don't trust Apocalypse but, clearly, Hickman makes Xavier and Magneto trust him (to some extent, at least…).
So: do the readers trust Apocalypse because they trust Xavier and Magneto and these latter are trusting Apocalypse?

Or maybe, it is: the readers trust Apocalypse because they feel a affinity to the Krakoans, these former persecuted mutants and these latter are trusting Apocalypse (he even, so generously, gave powers back to this poor depowered mutant)?

Or Hickman doesn't seem to be very interested in continuity, so this Apocalypse, despite having similarities with the former Apocalypse, won't behave in the same way.

[BroHomo]

Have you read anything abut Apocalypse in 616? He may be "nicer" at present but don't mistake that for weakness. He made his bones playing the long game and manipulating people. It would make sense if this is an act for him to reach out to them for accomplices.


Edit: This is more for the people in this thread who want us to trust the guy who put the Apocalypse in Age of Apocalypse.

220px-Xmenalpha.jpg

Here's the following events of what he did in the 2000's. When he was reborn via Techno organic virus he creates new Horsemen, comes to the X-Mansion making famine use their powers to weaken the X-men so they'll take his blood as an antidote and make him a mutant messiah. After that he confronts the leaders at the United Nations with an ultimatum: he'll destroy 90% of the world's population, ensuring humanity and mutants are on equal terms to fight for the survival of the fittest or he'll unleash a plague which will destroy humanity.

In the "Heroic Age" versions of Apocalypse and the Four Horsemen attack Avengers Tower when Kang breaks time. Fantomex clones him into a teenager to be raised in the X-men's Academy (Evan), during the "AXIS" storyline he's aged to adulthood he leads an uprising of mutants against Avengers Tower, to detonate a Celestial-based Gene-bomb to wipe out every human on Earth and is only stopped by Carnage sacrificing himself. Deadpool convinces Evan to stop by saying that everyone liked Evan and hated Apocalypse and the two ran away together.

The "Apocalypse Wars" had the X-men travel thousands of years into the future finding a destroyed New York City, where Apocalypse had conquered the world. It worked like this: those who survived certain trials lived under his rule and it was a world tied to his health with the Four Horseman acting as his "antibodies."

After that his body degenerated and he put his consciousness into human hosts, he got to his fourth, and he becomes fully human in the process. When he found the perfect host he killed the rest of the human test subjects and destroyed the island he was on which had been altered by is experiments.

What people aren't understanding about Apocalypse is that he's not a modern terrorist or criminal he's from a much older, primitive lens where all that mattered was domination and death. Don't think of him in terms of modern philosophy or culture, and he's shown he hasn't regressed in these stances, like human sacrifices, gladiator bouts and cult indoctrination. The Crucible shows he still continues these beliefs.

I haven't gone into what he was doing before all this.

You want me to trust this person with the future of mutant kind? No thanks. He makes Magneto and Shaw look like petty school bullies when it comes to super villainy.

Apoc didn't give up his ideas about mutant supremacy and Might Makes Right, the X-Men adopted that.

Body count still lower then Tge Scarlett Witch's soooooo

[Steel Inquisitor]

Body count still lower then Tge Scarlett Witch's soooooo

Scarlet Witch turned people human, she didn't kill them. The X Factor thing wasn't shown to be in anything other than one issue of X factor, which has bene promptly ignored. Apoc has destroyed the world three times in three time lines, and over the last few years tried to activate a gene bomb that would have wiped out humanity.

That this is all you have to defend against what I said speaks for itself.