Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Triniking1234]

How the god damn hell did this thread

ALSO

become a Wanda thread?

I deadass thought I was posting in the Trial of Scarlet Witch thread when I replied.

[Nigel909]

How the god damn hell did this thread

ALSO

become a Wanda thread?

Lol ! I was about to make a similar comment . There seems to be at least 3 threads now focused on Wanda.

[Zelena]

How the god damn hell did this thread

ALSO

become a Wanda thread?

Wandobsession?

[Kurolegacy]

How the god damn hell did this thread

ALSO

become a Wanda thread?

Through the grand power of rent free apparently

[People Of The Earth]

Lord this thread.

"Krakoa colonized Otherworld"

I'm pretty sure Otherworld had a a civil war and the new guy in charge started shit with another country. Apocalypse made a deal with the previous leader and put them back in power for what he wanted which doesn't include ruling Otherworld.

Krakoa installed James Braddock as the new king of Avalon. Installed. Apocalypse explicitely stating having a powerful mutant ruling Otherworld as essential.
So yeah, I think colonize is an appropriate use of the word here.
Right now, Avalon is a puppet state to Krakoa, serving its interests and furthering its influence .
The previous leader is being dissected by Apocalypse on his spare time, and it's clear he sees other non-mutant magical wielders as threats to be dealt with.

"Xavier's mind controlling everyone"

Including the mutants who were on the other side of the galaxy when it was shown his telepathy range isn't infinite and somehow was still controlling everyone will dead?

Bruh.

That's not how telepathy works and you know it.
Characters being programmed/brainwashed/suggested into thinking a certain way that suits the telepath manipulating them happen all the time, they Don't Always need to be put on a leash for it to work.
It's not a prerequisite.
The Kraked traveling left and right including off-world doesn't detract from that, it's not proof in itself of their mind being free or not having been tampered.

"They don't need to do this (the Crucible) to get their powers back."

Yes. They do. That was the point of this issue.

No, they Don't. Crucible isn't necessary for the Depowered to get their power, death+ Resurection protocols is.
Said death doesn't have to occur battling a mutant madman in a gladiator area.
Saying it does is just false.

So if they killed Aero outside of battle in order for her to be resurrected, the X-Men wouldn't be murderers?

Who knows? We have no clues about the Kraked's laws regarding mutant-on-mutant Killing.
If Aero's death occured in a context similar to euthanasia, with a medical team monitoring the process and ensuring it's painless, done in a humane way, and with Aero's wits about it and accord from her parents or legal guardian?
My answer would be no, the X-Men wouldn't be murderers.

[People Of The Earth]

nani?

And since the Crucible is part of that system to prevent random suicides my "yes, they do" was correct.

No, it's not correct.
The logistical issue the Kraked have existed the moment they decided to use the Resurrection Protocols to revive the former population of Genosha.
Saying the Depowered are the ones causing said logistical issue is false. Their million pales in comparison to the 16 millions Genoshans to revive, the Five had their plates full long before the Depowered trying to regain their powers supposedly became a problem.

Or instead of snuffing like a chicken before being sent to KFC, they could step in the ring with Apocalypse so he psychologically test them to (a) ensure the subject is ready to face death and (b) ensure the subject is ready to fight once they get their powers back.

Which was part of the point of the issue.

The "subjects" shouldn't have to commit into laying down their lives for future fighting in order to retrieve what is rightfully theirs at the end of the day.
If the Kraked define themselves as individuals by their powers so much (and it is what's being implied in X-Men #7), then any attempt to control the access to said powers is an attempt to control their identities themselves, who is and who is not mutant.
It is abusive in nature.
And it is leveraging what shouldn't be leveraged, using Tools like social norms and stratification to press vulnerable people - the Depowered - into commiting to Something they might not have otherwise: fight and die for Krakoa.

So why Don't you call (b) for what it is? Indoctrination.

I said "Yes" because the issue establishes The Crucible as part of their repowering ritual.
And your counter-argument is that the mutants are a bunch of softies who wouldn't jump at the chance to die in combat to get their gifts back.

Unless conscription is mandatory on Krakoa, no, mutants shouldn't have to "jump at the chance to die in combat to get their gifts back".
Said gift being rightfully theirs, ergo, them being entitled to get them back regardless of them commiting or not commiting to fight and die for Krakoa.

How old was Melody anyway? Was she a legal adult or a minor? If a minor how does her mother feel about it...or since she is just a flatscan doe her opinion on her daughter being slaughtered in a public spectacle not matter??

What is the age limit on Crucible? Would they put a 12 year old thru it? Or would that be depended on their power?? Would a 12 year old with weak power be denied and a 12 year old with Polaris/Storm/Vulcan/Xavier level power be moved to the top of the list??

The X-Men Don't seem to care about other countries laws, they just attempted to kidnapp the Richards' elder son without batting an eye about the nature of their actions…
On that point, they are clueless.
So I wouldn't be surprised if the parents of Melody had been left out of the decision's process entirely by the Kraked.

[Triniking1234]

Krakoa installed James Braddock as the new king of Avalon. Installed. Apocalypse explicitely stating having a powerful mutant ruling Otherworld as essential.
So yeah, I think colonize is an appropriate use of the word here.
Right now, Avalon is a puppet state to Krakoa, serving its interests and furthering its influence .
The previous leader is being dissected by Apocalypse on his spare time, and it's clear he sees other non-mutant magical wielders as threats to be dealt with.



That's not how telepathy works and you know it.
Characters being programmed/brainwashed/suggested into thinking a certain way that suits the telepath manipulating them happen all the time, they Don't Always need to be put on a leash for it to work.
It's not a prerequisite.
The Kraked traveling left and right including off-world doesn't detract from that, it's not proof in itself of their mind being free or not having been tampered.



No, they Don't. Crucible isn't necessary for the Depowered to get their power, death+ Resurection protocols is.
Said death doesn't have to occur battling a mutant madman in a gladiator area.
Saying it does is just false.



Who knows? We have no clues about the Kraked's laws regarding mutant-on-mutant Killing.
If Aero's death occured in a context similar to euthanasia, with a medical team monitoring the process and ensuring it's painless, done in a humane way, and with Aero's wits about it and accord from her parents or legal guardian?
My answer would be no, the X-Men wouldn't be murderers.

As I said they fought off an invading nation and put one of the rightful rulers back on the throne. It's a puppet state now but that's more like annexation rather than colonization.

I'll take the loss for that one since Xavier's brainwashing about the Deadly Genesis event lasted through all the nonsense that happened.

And as of X-Men #7, Krakoa is making the M-Day depowered mutants go through the Crucible to get their powers. They didn't have to before but they do now.

[Ferro]

"omg mind control" werent all of you all happy that mystique still hates xavier? and all the other instances of doubt and displeasure that wouldnt happen if there was mindcontrol.
less time to create uncreative mocking names and more into reading the actual issues, the dialogue and the narrative being presented on the page, please.

[Ferro]

we could have an entire issue of x-men roundtable with everyone talking about a realistic set of pros and cons, but since it wouldnt end with the team destroying krakoa to go back to a boring mansion status quo, it would still be mind control and manipulation somehow.

[People Of The Earth]

An honest and genuine question:
For those who are vehemently "Anti-Krakoa" and consider HiX-Man's writing to be "OOC" "PIS" and "nonsense"...after months and many issues in, why are you still reading it?
If it is "doomed to fail" as some of you predict, why are some of you still supporting this run? (It's not as though, HiX-Man and Co. are paying close attention to the "concerns" and are assiduously making notes to change their stories/plots/characterisations to suit the notions of a disgruntled few).

When I read the first three issues of Fraction's Utopia...I quickly realised that I would not enjoy his X-Men/writing going forward and I stopped reading and buying and spent my money on more enjoyable books. It seemed like the very sensible thing to do at the time, even as an avowed "X-Fanbot".

So again...Why?

People can appreciate a story and its craft, without liking its direction, both are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite in fact.
Happens all the time, in all media, with all people.
Generally speaking, it's pointless to ask "why are you still here" as a result, especially given this thread isn't an appreciation thread.

Well now that you mentioned him, what about Jumbo Carnation? Did he have to participate in the crucible to be resurrected, did he have to prove that he is willing to die for Krakoa? Or did Emma flex some muscle and have him moved up the line so he could make her a outfits. And if so what does that say? Some mutants get preferential treatment if they know the right person, while others have to get their ass beat by Apocalypse to get their rightful powers back. I guess Krakoa really is like other nations, it's all about who you know and some will always get over on others.

Krakoa is a nation inhabited by humans, of course they would have the same pittfalls than any other nations out there.
They aren't the first ones to brand themselves Superior to the rest of humanity either, or reject it altogether.

It's understood that once a mutant decides to live on Krakoa he/she are Krakoan, lving under Krakoan Laws and are not subject to the laws of their previous/renounced citizenship and country there-of.

No.
That in bold? That's wishful-thinking when it comes to minors Under the responsibility of their parents or legal guardians.

[People Of The Earth]

And this is where part of my issue with all this is....if they are now Krakoan...why are they coming and going all over the world and ignoring borders and laws of other countries? Why are other countries letting them?? I want to see a country burn down the gate...then issue a statement that mutants are welcome...so long as they follow the immigration laws of the country and come thru a valid port of entry and clear customs.

The whole "we are giving you advanced medicines so you give us what we want" only goes so far.

It is a Wonder why countries who officially Don't recognize Krakoa allow the Gates' presence on their territories, indeed.
Someone suggested on another thread that the Gates were allowed in order to flush out from clandestinity and facilitate the capture of mutants from said countries.
I tend to agree with this, it'd make the most sense.

I also think it is a matter of time before the Marauders are accused of being Krakoa's agents by someone, with all the international fallout it would cause as a result.
It Always baffles me to see them acting without masking themselves to hide their Identity and offer some deniability to Krakoa: the roster of highly-recognizable, high-profile X-Men/former X-Men isn't helping either in term of deniability.

sigh.

They're going into other countries to shepard mutants to Krakoa. Some countries are allowing them such as USA and Japan (in Marauders) because they agreed after the UN meeting in Powers of X.

The questions Chris asked were valid, the Marauders have very explicit ties with Krakoa, which makes their actions in other sovereign countries questionable even Under UN scrutiny.

Or not, because its a comic book not a sociological dissertation on making a new country for people with superpowers.
We don't need to see their toilets and plumbing. We don't need to see the grocery stores. We don't need to see the accounting and tax preparation. We don't need to see 3+ hours in customs and immigration every time they want to go to New York. This is a medium where the majority of problems are solved with martial arts and laser beams, its ok to let some of the minutia go by.

Plenty of people appreciate the pieces of worldbuilding that are crafted into their readings, and Hickman is kind of known for that specifically too.
And generally speaking, plenty of people appreciate when there is coherence in their stories, regardless of the medium.

So, speak for yourself here, ty.

[People Of The Earth]

People out here like "This fictional story isn't good because it doesn't follow the logic of reality".

People can critique Something and still appreciate it, you are making a gross generalization of what's being said here...
I mean, if we go down this road of caricaturing other people's differing positions, it won't paint a pretty picture of Krakoa's defenders on this forum either.
Which is not the point of said forum, let alone this thread. So please, Don't.

How the god damn hell did this thread

ALSO

become a Wanda thread?

It didn't.
Some poster felt pressed in the discussion and tried to settle and "win" the argument by bringing her up, that's all.

[Ororo101]

You write that as if you are certain it's fact, but it's nothing more than a groundless assumption to believe every nation has done things that Krakoa's major players are doing.

Other than WWII era Germany and Japan, I really can't think of many nations that had agents, policies that condoned vivisecting vanquished opponents like Apocalypse did to Le Fey.

Because it seems you are not historically well-informed you are oblivious to the fact that the nationalism and language the Krakoans used to justify their claim to being homo superior is very similar to Hitler's assertion of German superiority in Mein Kampf vs a vs the inferior races of the world. The brief glimpse of the indoctrination classes of mutant children a chilling call back to those days.

That similarity is what makes a lot of readers uncomfortable.

Putting it a comic book context where comic book nations are just as bad doesn't make the vile origins of those beliefs disappear.

For those more historically informed, there is no way the ideology that brought us WWII can become benign even good no matter what the cause is. To most people more aware of history the origins of those words are so unacceptable any attempt to repurpose those words to serve the mutant cause just exposes the evil motivations of Hickman's mutants.

You seem to be one of the exceptions. You can't see anything bad about using the ideology of Mein Kampf albeit cleaned up and sanitized and repurposed to serve as the guiding ideals of the new mutant nation.

You can't in part, because you wrongly assume all nations are just as evil (in the comic world and seemingly in the real world too) and for that reason,two evils make a right.

Yeah lmaoo this whole perception is a farce and a half to me. People really love jumping to exasperated and uninformed claims i.e. “The X-men are just like Nazis now!” so much so that it’s laughable. First of all nazis/white aryan, people were never a targeted or oppressed minority group so their “pride” stemmed directly from racism/bigotry, not finding “pride” in something you’ve been told your whole life is a curse or has a cultural stigma. The obvious difference between white/aryan/nazi “pride” and for instance gay, black, or in this instance mutant “pride”.

Secondly the nazis’ entire structure was built upon an offensive strategy, to acquire more territories to impose their ideology/bigotry whereas the X-men are not only defensive in nature but also have pro-outsider protection policies in place to keep the peace as well as a massive global good will offering of life saving drugs to ease the transition of becoming a nation state while also building public trust in a newly established regime. Diametrically opposed to the nazis, their ethnic cleansing offensives towards neighboring territories and their innate bad will perceived but surrounding areas due to their lies on what they would do vs what they actually ended up doing. The X-men have not lied about their need and right to secure a safe haven for mutantkind, protected by legislation made for them, not in spite of them. They literally told the gathering of world leaders their exact plan, which was to go about the securing of their nation/status by utilizing the same financial manipulation means that mankind uses all the time. Fighting for their place in world affairs using their brain and not their fists now, a far smarter tactic that every advanced nation in the world has done.

Lastly, the nazis’ belief in Aryan “Superiority” were based on lies and delusions of self grandeur, snake oil “science” scrounged up to support the false claim that any sect of the human race is innately more good, more intelligent, and more capable than other sects based on physical characteristics and self appraising adaptations of “history”. It was bigotry, wrapped in a lie and sold to the world as a fact. A masterclass in marketing, but based on fraudulence and weak insecurity. The X-men/mutantkind while a derivative of the human race, are factually not Homo Sapiens. They are genetically different, literally further evolved, and an altogether different species than man because of it. There is no lie there. While similarities are clear and present, the difference is encoded down to DNA itself. And because of envy and hatred by those who consider themselves “left behind” vestiges in the evolutionary line, mutants have been persecuted because of it, while their population was still small enough to do so. Krakoa is the physical manifestation of the mutants’ stance towards continuous anti-mutant world affairs, “No More”. They are going to protect their inevitable, growing population by securing a mutant homeland that will safeguard their progress while doing so within the bounds and stipulations of world governance, essentially legitimizing them. The only difference is they’re not taking no for an answer. They’re not “accepting” humanity’s mercurial handouts of respect and civility anymore, they are demanding it. To some that may seem aggressive, but aggressive stances are sometimes needed to make change in aggressive societies. To many, black activists “causing riots” in the streets, stoking trouble by not sitting in “their” assigned sections, and “provoking” violence by being tireless in their efforts seemed like an “aggressive” agenda and maybe it was. But it was what was necessary to accomplish anything in a society that was already in an aggressive stance towards people of color already. Any real change in this world is hard fought and stubbornly pursued, no matter the backlash of a world that hates “change”. Nazism however stemmed from a people/society that were already in a place of privilege, but then decided that they wanted, that they DESERVED more. That is the glaring difference and why I don’t understand why people insist on these erroneous and shallow comparisons between mutantkind in Dawn of X and these falsely equivalent real life scenarios. It just seems like gas lighting, but the scary thing is that people actually believe it?

Anyway, that’s my 10 cents on the matter and I won’t hold this thread up on this topic any longer. Just had to address what I saw when it comes to these patently ludicrous claims.

[Triniking1234]

People can critique Something and still appreciate it, you are making a gross generalization of what's being said here...
I mean, if we go down this road of caricaturing other people's differing positions, it won't paint a pretty picture of Krakoa's defenders on this forum either.
Which is not the point of said forum, let alone this thread. So please, Don't.

Please don't what?

Chris' counter-argument to the gates is that the government wouldn't allow it in real life but since the 1960s we already know the government in the comic books don't operate the same way as in real life because it's fiction.

You can critique the books but criticize them based on the content inside of the book instead of making up a bunch of weak strawman arguments and headcanon to justify your distaste for the book.

[Ororo101]

Funny, I'm a history teacher and I think I have a pretty good grasp on world history, and I disagree with almost every single thing you posted.

USA Lynching
USA Trail of Tears
UK Opium Wars
UK Partition of India
UK Bengal Famine of 1942
France French Torture in Algerian War
Belgium Belgian Congo
Australia Stolen Generations
Canada... yeah even Canada Killings of indigenous women and girls
Canada... Again? forcibly removing aboriginal children from their families for schooling

This is also by no means a complete list this was a quick 5 minutes to find the links, its also consciously only going back to the nineteenth century and not even touching upon slavery in the USA. This also is only concerned with the real world not the MU where near as can be determined every single country participated in the purchase of mutant killing Murder-bots after Genosha.

Thinking there is something wrong with Krakoa... fair, plenty of things to rouse suspicion.
Not happy with the villains... fair, they do have a history.

Comparing anyone post industrial revolution (except maybe the Soviet Union) to the Nazi's is laughable.

Thank you for this. Education is so important and yet clearly not as appreciated as it should be.