Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Kisinith]

It is a Wonder why countries who officially Don't recognize Krakoa allow the Gates' presence on their territories, indeed.
Someone suggested on another thread that the Gates were allowed in order to flush out from clandestinity and facilitate the capture of mutants from said countries.
I tend to agree with this, it'd make the most sense.

I also think it is a matter of time before the Marauders are accused of being Krakoa's agents by someone, with all the international fallout it would cause as a result.
It Always baffles me to see them acting without masking themselves to hide their Identity and offer some deniability to Krakoa: the roster of highly-recognizable, high-profile X-Men/former X-Men isn't helping either in term of deniability.

The questions Chris asked were valid, the Marauders have very explicit ties with Krakoa, which makes their actions in other sovereign countries questionable even Under UN scrutiny.

Plenty of people appreciate the pieces of worldbuilding that are crafted into their readings, and Hickman is kind of known for that specifically too.
And generally speaking, plenty of people appreciate when there is coherence in their stories, regardless of the medium.

So, speak for yourself here, ty.

Then read a book, If it's important to the story it will be included, but not everything is that important. Personally I love world building and I would devour something written by Hickman on how everything in Krakoa works. However its simply not realistic to expect that to be covered in the limited panel space afforded by comic books. At some point you have to accept a level of suspension of disbelief or else you are simply in the wrong medium.

We have been told they have established a nation, that means there are a LOT of things about that we don't know how they work. We also don't need to know about them, sanitation, customs and immigration, agriculture, infrastructure, engineering, commerce (we know they have it but comparatively nothing about how it works), education, health and human (mutant) services, housing and development, labor, park and wildlife services... the list goes on and on, unless its structurally important to the story its minutia and by necessity we can't get hung up on its lack.

[Zelena]

Yeah lmaoo this whole perception is a farce and a half to me. People really love jumping to exasperated and uninformed claims i.e. “The X-men are just like Nazis now!” so much so that it’s laughable. First of all nazis/white aryan, people were never a targeted or oppressed minority group so their “pride” stemmed directly from racism/bigotry, not finding “pride” in something you’ve been told your whole life is a curse or has a cultural stigma. The obvious difference between white/aryan/nazi “pride” and for instance gay, black, or in this instance mutant “pride”.

The Nazis felt 'threatened' by the Jews, it was not true but it was included in their propaganda.

Secondly the nazis’ entire structure was built upon an offensive strategy, to acquire more territories to impose their ideology/bigotry whereas the X-men are not only defensive in nature but also have pro-outsider protection policies in place to keep the peace as well as a massive global good will offering of life saving drugs to ease the transition of becoming a nation state while also building public trust in a newly established regime. Diametrically opposed to the nazis, their ethnic cleansing offensives towards neighboring territories and their innate bad will perceived but surrounding areas due to their lies on what they would do vs what they actually ended up doing. The X-men have not lied about their need and right to secure a safe haven for mutantkind, protected by legislation made for them, not in spite of them. They literally told the gathering of world leaders their exact plan, which was to go about the securing of their nation/status by utilizing the same financial manipulation means that mankind uses all the time. Fighting for their place in world affairs using their brain and not their fists now, a far smarter tactic that every advanced nation in the world has done.

Magneto's attitude was rather offensive. Not a smart move, in my opinion. In line with a aspect of the character: better be threatening than sorry.

Lastly, the nazis’ belief in Aryan “Superiority” were based on lies and delusions of self grandeur, snake oil “science” scrounged up to support the false claim that any sect of the human race is innately more good, more intelligent, and more capable than other sects based on physical characteristics and self appraising adaptations of “history”. It was bigotry, wrapped in a lie and sold to the world as a fact. A masterclass in marketing, but based on fraudulence and weak insecurity. The X-men/mutantkind while a derivative of the human race, are factually not Homo Sapiens. They are genetically different, literally further evolved, and an altogether different species than man because of it. There is no lie there. While similarities are clear and present, the difference is encoded down to DNA itself. And because of envy and hatred by those who consider themselves “left behind” vestiges in the evolutionary line, mutants have been persecuted because of it, while their population was still small enough to do so. Krakoa is the physical manifestation of the mutants’ stance towards continuous anti-mutant world affairs, “No More”. They are going to protect their inevitable, growing population by securing a mutant homeland that will safeguard their progress while doing so within the bounds and stipulations of world governance, essentially legitimizing them. The only difference is they’re not taking no for an answer. They’re not “accepting” humanity’s mercurial handouts of respect and civility anymore, they are demanding it. To some that may seem aggressive, but aggressive stances are sometimes needed to make change in aggressive societies. To many, black activists “causing riots” in the streets, stoking trouble by not sitting in “their” assigned sections, and “provoking” violence by being tireless in their efforts seemed like an “aggressive” agenda and maybe it was. But it was what was necessary to accomplish anything in a society that was already in an aggressive stance towards people of color already. Any real change in this world is hard fought and stubbornly pursued, no matter the backlash of a world that hates “change”. Nazism however stemmed from a people/society that were already in a place of privilege, but then decided that they wanted, that they DESERVED more. That is the glaring difference and why I don’t understand why people insist on these erroneous and shallow comparisons between mutantkind in Dawn of X and these falsely equivalent real life scenarios. It just seems like gas lighting, but the scary thing is that people actually believe it?

Anyway, that’s my 10 cents on the matter and I won’t hold this thread up on this topic any longer. Just had to address what I saw when it comes to these patently ludicrous claims.

Genetically different? One gene…?
This superiority thing is always about ideology, to make judgements. 'I'm better than you are, I have more value than you…' It works both ways.
I really don't understand why this need to have this kind of ideology to build a safe haven for mutants. It's unnecessary… and an artificial addition to this run.

[People Of The Earth]

As I said they fought off an invading nation and put one of the rightful rulers back on the throne. It's a puppet state now but that's more like annexation rather than colonization.

I was Piggy-backing over what the other poster laid out and the use of colonization is appropriate in that context - not the most appropriate term to be used, but still appropriate.
Avalon isn't part of Krakoa, so it's not an annexation per se.
What Avalon is however is a state subordinate to Krakoa, whom deposed the former ruler to install its own.
I used puppet state but one could argue it became a colony the moment it happened, and no one will deny the colonialism in this either.

I'll take the loss for that one since Xavier's brainwashing about the Deadly Genesis event lasted through all the nonsense that happened.

It's an option that can't be ruled out for the time being, I just wanted to point that out.

And as of X-Men #7, Krakoa is making the M-Day depowered mutants go through the Crucible to get their powers. They didn't have to before but they do now.

They still Don't have to make the candidates go through Crucible in order for them to die.
They could have made the choice to have said candidates die in a bed Under medical supervision for example - they elicited they die in an arena at the hand of Apocalypse instead.
It is a choice the Kraked made in creating that ceremony, Crucible, and why you can't say It's an obligation.
The only obligation is for Death to occur, and for the Resurrection Protocols to be enacted.
Everything else is unecessary.

[Triniking1234]

They still Don't have to make the candidates go through Crucible in order for them to die.

They could have made the choice to have said candidates die in a bed Under medical supervision for example - they elicited they die in an arena at the hand of Apocalypse instead.

It is a choice the Kraked made in creating that ceremony, Crucible, and why you can't say It's an obligation.
The only obligation is for Death to occur, and for the Resurrection Protocols to be enacted.
Everything else is unecessary.

In the end they chose to have their Crucible. You just have to deal with it; it's part of their culture.

[Ferro]

it’s interestinf, whenever i talk about current xmen with some hardcore fantasy / sci fi fans they get realy interested and think it’s realy cool what mutant culture is growing into, but then in the comic verse some people are realy adverse at mutants tapping into the weirdness that was always there

[People Of The Earth]

Please don't what?

Please Don't caricature other people's position for the Reason I cited, ty.

Chris' counter-argument to the gates is that the government wouldn't allow it in real life but since the 1960s we already know the government in the comic books don't operate the same way as in real life because it's fiction.

It doesn't give free rein to stray so far away from reality it becomes absurd either, the whole schtick of Marvel being to keep their comics grounded enough with real life after all...
The Gates are essentially new frontiers set-up in other nations territories, and they are an integral part to the stories being told, so of course questions would occurs regarding them.
Even in-universe, what country wouldn't react to their presence on their territory? Especially if they are adversarial to Krakoa's existence?
There's a Reason those questions pop-up regularly on this board, that's because they are valid.

You can critique the books but criticize them based on the content inside of the book instead of making up a bunch of weak strawman arguments and headcanon to justify your distaste for the book.

Also, I'll keep that sentence in mind the next time someone try to attack Wanda or compare her to Hitler.
It's fitting.

Then read a book, If it's important to the story it will be included, but not everything is that important. Personally I love world building and I would devour something written by Hickman on how everything in Krakoa works. However its simply not realistic to expect that to be covered in the limited panel space afforded by comic books. At some point you have to accept a level of suspension of disbelief or else you are simply in the wrong medium.

We have been told they have established a nation, that means there are a LOT of things about that we don't know how they work. We also don't need to know about them, sanitation, customs and immigration, agriculture, infrastructure, engineering, commerce (we know they have it but comparatively nothing about how it works), education, health and human (mutant) services, housing and development, labor, park and wildlife services... the list goes on and on, unless its structurally important to the story its minutia and by necessity we can't get hung up on its lack.

I know.
That's not what's happening here though.

Chris pointed out the pointlessness of the gates when the Kraked already have telepaths and teleporters and technologies to track and retrieve mutants stranded in hostile territories, with strategies who proved their efficiency for décades in the comics.
He also pointed out how the gates would impact the countries harboring those, willfully or not, and elicit reactions from them into how they handle what are essentially new frontiers Inside their territories.

Those are valid , interesting questions to ask, about items that are an integral part of the current X-stories being told - sometimes very crucials even like in X-Men or X-Force.
And those are questions who come up regularly on this forum, in various thread, from different posters.

It's not a case of nitpicking, and it doesn't deserve to be shut down whenever they come up, that would defeat the purpose of this forum.
We all are different, with different worldviews and sensibilities, so not everyone will brush off occurrences like these Under the "suspension of disbelief" rug like you seem to do.

And again, this isn't an appreciation thread - there's no point in coming here to ask people why they are still reading Hickman like that other poster did, or suggesting they are Simply in the wrong medium, like you just did.
It's distasteful.

[Ororo101]

The Nazis felt 'threatened' by the Jews, it was not true but it was included in their propaganda.


Magneto's attitude was rather offensive. Not a smart move, in my opinion. In line with a aspect of the character: better be threatening than sorry.



Genetically different? One gene…?
This superiority thing is always about ideology, to make judgements. 'I'm better than you are, I have more value than you…' It works both ways.
I really don't understand why this need to have this kind of ideology to build a safe haven for mutants. It's unnecessary… and an artificial addition to this run.

1) Yes, so even you’re admitting that the Nazi’s “perceived” (imagined and based in bigotry) threat of Jews and actual real threats endured by actually marginalized communities are different as one is a lie and the other has physical, hard evidence to the contrary. Just like mutantkind. So we agree. Great.

2) Once again, Magneto’s zeal for mutant pride, while perhaps “distasteful” to some is not actually an offensive attack on humans. Not since HoX to be sure. Magneto making uncomfortable commentary around humans is not comparable to actual offensive strategies that physically and harmfully uprooted people and their lives. At all.

3) There is a 1.2% genetic difference between human beings and chimpanzees. Find me an accredited scientist willing to call them the same thing and I’ll admit that mutants are just “zested up” humans in reality.

[Zelena]

it’s interestinf, whenever i talk about current xmen with some hardcore fantasy / sci fi fans they get realy interested and think it’s realy cool what mutant culture is growing into, but then in the comic verse some people are realy adverse at mutants tapping into the weirdness that was always there

Because their weirdness were a metaphor to show that, despite people are, apparently, different, they are, in fact, alike: they love, they suffer like anyone else (and before they die like anyone else).
It is an old tradition in comics to show the Other is, in fact, another Yourself.

Hickman takes these mutants I have felt a kinship with, since a very long time… and he says: 'the Other is really Another and he is not You.'

These X-men have nothing to do with the X-men I knew.

[Journey]

The Ego of Charles and Erik, and the pride/paranoia of Moira is the only reason Incould see Krakoa tanking they should elect their leadership the quiet council is flawed.

[Zelena]

3) There is a 1.2% genetic difference between human beings and chimpanzees. Find me an accredited scientist willing to call them the same thing and I’ll admit that mutants are just “zested up” humans in reality.

I have been reading X-men comics since a very long time and they always behave like humans. I don't need to… 'look under the hood' to consider them as humans.

For the rest… I agree. (My potatoes must be cooked… )

[Triniking1234]

Please Don't caricature other people's position for the Reason I cited, ty.


It doesn't give free rein to stray so far away from reality it becomes absurd either, the whole schtick of Marvel being to keep their comics grounded enough with real life after all...
The Gates are essentially new frontiers set-up in other nations territories, and they are an integral part to the stories being told, so of course questions would occurs regarding them.
Even in-universe, what country wouldn't react to their presence on their territory? Especially if they are adversarial to Krakoa's existence?
There's a Reason those questions pop-up regularly on this board, that's because they are valid.



Also, I'll keep that sentence in mind the next time someone try to attack Wanda or compare her to Hitler.
It's fitting.

Marvel doesn't have free rein for their books to stray so far from reality that it becomes absurd?

Too late for that.

The X-Office showed enough of the situation of the gates. Pro-mutant areas don't give a damn; anti-mutant areas try to hinder mutants from travelling through.

[Devaishwarya]

Because their weirdness were a metaphor to show that, despite people are, apparently, different, they are, in fact, alike: they love, they suffer like anyone else (and before they die like anyone else).
It is an old tradition in comics to show the Other is, in fact, another Yourself.

Hickman takes these mutants I have felt a kinship with, since a very long time… and he says: 'the Other is really Another and he is not You.'

These X-men have nothing to do with the X-men I knew.

This (the bolded) is exactly HiX-Man and Co's raison d'etre, as it were.
They are not meant to be the X-Men WE ALL knew. Given their circumstances after the huge HoX 02 reveal, they have clearly moved forward, in another direction. (Thank the Goddess!!!)
I do get why that may be absolutely traumatic for some as accepting change and going beyond what's familiar and comfortable can be quite difficult.

[Ororo101]

Because their weirdness were a metaphor to show that, despite people are, apparently, different, they are, in fact, alike: they love, they suffer like anyone else (and before they die like anyone else).
It is an old tradition in comics to show the Other is, in fact, another Yourself.

Hickman takes these mutants I have felt a kinship with, since a very long time… and he says: 'the Other is really Another and he is not You.'

These X-men have nothing to do with the X-men I knew.

I see where you’re coming from now I think and I respect the intention behind your argument. The only problem is, it very much correlates to people who say things like “I don’t see color” and think that it means that they are fine because to them, everyone is human and so they don’t see or care about cultural differences. And the problem with that statement to me as a black man and many others is that is dismisses the significance of my culture, my people, and our history. We don’t have a European based background up until slavery started and to live in what is now a euro-centric, westernized society and say essentially “I don’t see you”, while good intentioned comes across as saying “I don’t care to learn about the facets of your culture that are different to mine and that make you beautiful while acknowledging that we still fundamentally want the same thing as all people”. Things such as life, liberty, freedom of expression, love, and belief. It takes more of effort to “see” color and accept it for its similarities as well as it’s differences that make it unique than to just brush it off and say “I don’t see your color, race, or culture because we’re all the same”. But it’s more appreciated by me and many others that you maybe can see us foe who we are and STILL accept that we are the “same”. So when it comes to the mutant metaphor I can’t help but relate that same sentiments. There’s nothing wrong with seeing mutants as a new chapter in the story of mankind. But to see them for their differences and still love them? That’s what takes real courage and understanding. Accepting people not “because” of their differences but in spite of them.

[Nigel909]

Because their weirdness were a metaphor to show that, despite people are, apparently, different, they are, in fact, alike: they love, they suffer like anyone else (and before they die like anyone else).
It is an old tradition in comics to show the Other is, in fact, another Yourself.

Hickman takes these mutants I have felt a kinship with, since a very long time… and he says: 'the Other is really Another and he is not You.'

These X-men have nothing to do with the X-men I knew.

I have to say I've always had a very different view of the x men. To me they have always said it's ok be different , ok to be weird ,ok to embrace your differences and that there is no reason to conform. All very important to a young ,gay lad.
And now I would suggest this is even more true .Say no to conversion and electroshock.
So now , to me they are even more the X-Men.

[BroHomo]

How the god damn hell did this thread

ALSO

become a Wanda thread?

Yeeeeeah I'll say my bad for my part in that. My bag guys

I see where you’re coming from now I think and I respect the intention behind your argument. The only problem is, it very much correlates to people who say things like “I don’t see color” and think that it means that they are fine because to them, everyone is human and so they don’t see or care about cultural differences. And the problem with that statement to me as a black man and many others is that is dismisses the significance of my culture, my people, and our history. We don’t have a European based background up until slavery started and to live in what is now a euro-centric, westernized society and say essentially “I don’t see you”, while good intentioned comes across as saying “I don’t care to learn about the facets of your culture that are different to mine and that make you beautiful while acknowledging that we still fundamentally want the same thing as all people”. Things such as life, liberty, freedom of expression, love, and belief. It takes more of effort to “see” color and accept it for its similarities as well as it’s differences that make it unique than to just brush it off and say “I don’t see your color, race, or culture because we’re all the same”. But it’s more appreciated by me and many others that you maybe can see us foe who we are and STILL accept that we are the “same”. So when it comes to the mutant metaphor I can’t help but relate that same sentiments. There’s nothing wrong with seeing mutants as a new chapter in the story of mankind. But to see them for their differences and still love them? That’s what takes real courage and understanding. Accepting people not “because” of their differences but in spite of them.

You've 'upped' the posting game my friend.

I have to say I've always had a very different view of the x men. To me they have always said is ok be different , ok to be weird ,ok to embrace your differences and that there is no reason to conform. All very important to a young ,gay lad.
And now I would suggest this is even more true .Say no to conversion and electroshock.
So he's to me they are even more the X-Men.

Bro....growing up this is pretty much how I felt about them kinda struggled through during the years writers were trying to turn the X-Men into just another superhero team, but now in this brave New World of KraKoa I am starting to enjoy the weirdness of all things X again