Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[People Of The Earth]

It is not murder for them people need to stop putting their morals and beliefs on culture you don't understand.

What people need to stop doing is using culture as an umbrella excuse to brush aside crimes.
Some cultures consider forced marriage, including the one of minors, as normal, consider conjugal rape as normal, consider women being lapidated and beaten to death with impunity as normal regardless of circumstances…
The cultural difference excuse is both inappropriated and insulting.
Some criminal ACTS transcend the notion, and ritualistic murder is one of them.

Also in Altered Carbon since you brought up it is illegal to kill someone against their will, But it is generally okay if they allow it, the show this on couple of occasion with "consensual death". Besides I would have to read novels because I didn't see it the show but punishment for "murdering" sleeve couldn't be all that harsh in world where a person can get new body. In fact in talking about let me show you how silly applying our concepts to things is Let say someone murders someone in Alter Carbon, They are put in jail for let's say 50 years, The first day person commit suicide in jail. What happens then? Do they spin them up in new body and make them serve the rest of their time? Is spending time in prison really a punishment when you can go out get a new younger body when your time is up? In in world where death does matter you think the responses things would be same?

So? Who say people Don't question the morality of doing that in Altered Carbon either? Should we open a thread about it and see how it goes? My point being that Whataboutism isn't working as an excuse.

Dr. Jack Kevorkian was put in jail for helping people with assisted suicide, If the sick person could get new body and live would anybody have problem with what he was doing?

Dr. Kevorkian wasn't beating down his patients to a bloody pulp before goring them with a sword.
Dr. Kevorkian was practicing euthanisia, which is not what Apocalypse was doing.
And Euthanisia is a raging debate in various countries around the world, morally and ethically, without the possibility to come back...
It would be an even bigger debate if the possibility to come back was on the table imo, because it would leave room for abuse...

Bottom line being: let's not pretend what Apocalypse did to Aero was humane and painless in nature, it was not.
There's no ground for you to make a parallel between the two here.

It is fair to call what Apocalypse did unsavory and uncomfortable. Trying to apply our thinking to scifi doesn't always make sense. Murder is only murder if the person stays dead,It is no harm no foul kinda thing if they are living.

Says what law of creating Fiction, ever?? That's litterally you rationalizing the act of Crucible and excusing it...
Sure, it's ok for you to take that excuse and run with it, but it doesn't make it THE universal Truth, despite you trying to make it sounds like it is.

A better real life equivalent is if someone online "stole" money from your online bank then 5 min later they put right back. Imagine a world if after money was stolen from you it always put back. Would you and people in general care if someone stole from you then? The answer is no trying to frame what happen in the books as "Murder" in the same way we view things is very wrong.

No, it doesn't work and here's why: the amount of money taken and the amount of money put back aren't necessarily the same in nature. Ignoring that simple thing is careless and enabling potential abuses.
See your example?
Say they take 100k on your account who are from your life savings (work, inheritance, etc), and put back 100k five minutes later but those 100k are from the selling of drugs or human trafficking.
That's a form of money laundring and that's punishable in most if not all countries around the world.
Therefore you should absolutely care about money being moved around in your accounts, even if it seemingly doesn't harm you, or even benefit you in a way.
And to take your example to its logical conclusion, the only people not caring about such movements would be the ones living in a country not considering money laundring as punishable. Or the ones who are foolish enough to see such movements on their account and come up with a "no harm no foul" stance on it.
In both cases, it doesn't change the nature of the act in itself: money laundring.
The same way the Kraked being fine with Crucible doesn't change the nature of the act itself: murder.

They are cultures where women are topless, Lots of cultures would view it as wrong but for them it is fine. They are cultures that allow men to have more than one wife. Some cultures this is wrong for them it is fine. Mutant Culture has adapt ritualistic gladiator game for mutants to get back their powers. Some people will say it is wrong but for them it is fine.

See my point above about using the culture umbrella to excuse criminal acts or behaviours. Again, some cultures consider marrital rape as normal, are you gonna try to shut down people questionning it too?

[People Of The Earth]

A group of corrupt politicians =/= Shaw’s gonna Shaw

Shaw did something bad and is likely gonna pay for it. Doesn’t answer how they or their system is in any way corrupt.

The fact that Xavier and Magneto are stopping the resurrection of precogs, subverting the very Council they sat on?
The fact that Xavier allowed his Killing to further his agenda regarding Krakoa, without the Council's knowledge?
The fact Apocalypse made Avalon a puppet state behind the Council's back?
The fact Frost specifically put Pryde on the Council to secure herself a supplementary vote on it?
The fact Shaw tried to double cross the Council's directive regarding black markets to make money off of it?
The fact the Council retroactively applied a law to Sabertooth who didn't exist 24 hours before?

The Council is a nest of corruption.
Morally-speaking, ethically-speaking, financially-speaking, you name it.

The only ones who are "clean" are the Summer group, that's it.

1) isn’t murder

It is.

2) there’s no culture on earth that’s conquered death in the way mutants on krakoa have so they obviously approach

Even that is debatable, Resurrection Protocols are a fancy form of cloning and are even questionned by the characters in-universe.

3) making differences via “savage” and “civilized” distinctions tend to be classist/racist

Culture shouldn't be used to excuse criminal behaviour or acts.

[People Of The Earth]

I don’t think you know what a “corrupt politician” is…

They are abusing their positions on the Council to further their personal interests/agendas on cover of working "for the people", consolidate their power on Krakoa or extend it through acts of favouritism and/or inducements and/or nepotism.
They fit the bill, save Jean, Kurt and maybe Storm.

Huh, imagine seeing one page that addresses all your problems. Almost like reading the story thoroughly wouldn’t lead to a lot of these discussion.

You just illustrated how Magneto and Xavier use the Council as a vehicle for their own agenda, so ty.

Unnecessarily violent? She got smacked around then quickly stabbed. Not that it isn’t violent, but it’s obviously scaled back as we’re talking about En Sabah Nur here and this is no “Mountain and the Viper.” Mutants are watching because this is an empowering moment for Melody... it’s why her family’s on the first row....

That must be the poorest excuse I've seen so far on this board to try and justify Apocalypse beating down and goring Aero the way he did...
Hands down.

the process isn’t about •—[A]—•, it’s about Melody and her confronting all the post M-Day feelings she had about losing her powers. She could’ve quit at any moment.

Apocalypse is the one person who pushed for Crucible to be a ritualistic Killing in an arena, so it very much is about him as well.
Let's not pretend otherwise, please.

You said it, not me.

Culture doesn't excuse criminal acts, trying to pretend it does is very disturbing.

[Killerbee911]

Way to miss the point but it is expected from certain posters the message was to closer examine what is happening not blindly put our value on things but that was clearly missed. Now where did I say being a different culture excuses everything but it is fair point that different cultures have different response to things. Yes at times those things seem unsavory to other cultures that is point. No where I was using culture as a wide umbrella to excuse every action right or wrong done by another culture.

It is not Whataboutism. It is people calling something murder by their definition and it doesn't fit because the person isn't dead. Krakoa did even bother making a rule on killing other mutants because it was kinda pointless. People are talking about things with certainty when the fiction points to it being something different. Krakoa has a warrior culture and mutants have to fight for their lives. I have no problems with combat being ingrained into their lifestyle. You guys might have problem with it, I don't have as much issue with tactics that reflect that. I have been "indoctrinated" to fight for organization stuff seem harsh and brutal until you actual have to fight and then things that you went through make a whole more sense.No where in talking about I have okayed every aspect of Crucible they are things I don't like but trying to talk about it as open shut murder misses the point of what is going on.

[BroHomo]

What people need to stop doing is using culture as an umbrella excuse to brush aside crimes.
Some cultures consider forced marriage, including the one of minors, as normal, consider conjugal rape as normal, consider women being lapidated and beaten to death with impunity as normal regardless of circumstances…
The cultural difference excuse is both inappropriated and insulting.
Some criminal ACTS transcend the notion, and ritualistic murder is one of them.

Wow Bro speaking of inappropriate and insulting.... Having the boldfaced audacity to come on a public forum to compare the force's marriage of underage kids, Rape, Genital mutilation, to something in a freakin comic book ito try and win an argument is beyooond ridiculous. You're deliberately being obtuse and it seems extremely irresponsible . No matter what you think or how awful your 'years' of X-readership allows you to dissect the narrative. X-men #7 is going to be read as a young girl triumphantly overcoming an obstacle and readers particularly younger ones will see it as empowering.
Thats. Just. Facts.
I seriously hope one of those who particularly took issue #7 as inspiration avoid this thread to prevent them seeing what they thought of as empowering wing compared to what was in your post.

Bottom line being: let's not pretend what Apocalypse did to Aero was humane and painless in nature, it was not.

There's no ground for you to make a parallel between the two here.
we have no real world equil to the crucible yet you feel you can compare it to the worst of humanity. It looked about as painful as my 11th bday party when No one showed up cause it snowed. i'd like to think that experience left me a different/better person

The same way the Kraked being fine with Crucible doesn't change the nature of the act itself: murder.

It's not murder Dude.. The definition of murder 'is the unlawful killing of a person.' Kill? means 'to cause the death of' Death? 'end of life'
There was nothing unlawful about the Crucible
Arris life didn't end..
if you're going to keep trying to make parallels between real world behavior try expanding your mind.

See my point above about using the culture umbrella to excuse criminal acts or behaviours. Again, some cultures consider marrital rape as normal, are you gonna try to shut down people questionning it too?

I will question the motives behind a person comparing marital rape to something insidra comic book tho

[Killerbee911]

And to be completely clear I have no problems with Crucible being called distasteful, violent, overkill, somewhat manipulative(okay very manipulative) , barbaric,etc. But murder? nah I am able to say I can see the wrong in it AND point to the well intention parts and decision making behind of it.

[The Man With The Stick]

So Charles became a super-villain. It's telling that he's the one making creepy speeches and Magneto is the one being silent. "Sure, Charles." Aside from the fourth panel all that dialogue would be natural coming from Magneto himself when he's in villain mode.

Magneto is the person speaking in several of those panels though! Look at the cloak, the gloves and the dialogue referring to "Charles and me".

[Zelena]

Magneto is the person speaking in several of those panels though! Look at the cloak, the gloves and the dialogue referring to "Charles and me".

"Charles and me"… when these two have ever agreed on anything. This fact alone should raises suspicion.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Magneto is the person speaking in several of those panels though! Look at the cloak, the gloves and the dialogue referring to "Charles and me".

Huh. So it is, how the two speak it's difficult to tell them apart their dialogue patterns red identify to me, aside from the "my X-men" panel. Which was still creepy in itself. The last panel where Xavier speaks may as well come from Magneto, however. The two men truly are one now with how they think.

[Nigel909]

They are abusing their positions on the Council to further their personal interests/agendas on cover of working "for the people", consolidate their power on Krakoa or extend it through acts of favouritism and/or inducements and/or nepotism.
They fit the bill, save Jean, Kurt and maybe Storm.



You just illustrated how Magneto and Xavier use the Council as a vehicle for their own agenda, so ty.



That must be the poorest excuse I've seen so far on this board to try and justify Apocalypse beating down and goring Aero the way he did...
Hands down.



Apocalypse is the one person who pushed for Crucible to be a ritualistic Killing in an arena, so it very much is about him as well.
Let's not pretend otherwise, please.



Culture doesn't excuse criminal acts, trying to pretend it does is very disturbing.

" culture doesn't excuse criminal acts , trying to pretend it does is very disturbing "

I'm sure you know that is an extremely problematic sentence .
What is a criminal act can only be defined by the culture in question . An outsider has no right to define what does or does not break the laws of any given culture.

Morality is a very different matter . Appealing to a universal concept of morality is possible but again , I would suggest very problematic.

And again we are discussing a new , alien , culture which is developing in a very hostile (fictional) universe.

A real world example (I hesitate to do this , everybody seems to hate my real world examples !)

In the UK capitol punishment is illegal .
In some states of the USA execution of criminals is legal.
Does that mean that people in the USA are committing an illegal act because in my culture it is both illegal and immoral ?

[LordUltimus]

" culture doesn't excuse criminal acts , trying to pretend it does is very disturbing "

I'm sure you know that is an extremely problematic sentence .
What is a criminal act can only be defined by the culture in question . An outsider has no right to define what does or does not break the laws of any given culture.

Morality is a very different matter . Appealing to a universal concept of morality is possible but again , I would suggest very problematic.

And again we are discussing a new , alien , culture which is developing in a very hostile (fictional) universe.

A real world example (I hesitate to do this , everybody seems to hate my real world examples !)

In the UK capitol punishment is illegal .
In some states of the USA execution of criminals is legal.
Does that mean that people in the USA are committing an illegal act because in my culture it is both illegal and immoral ?

According to many Middle Eastern countries, it's moral and legal to forcibly strip women to see if their hymen has been ruptured. Is that moral and okay?

[Nigel909]

Huh. So it is, how the two speak it's difficult to tell them apart their dialogue patterns red identify to me, aside from the "my X-men" panel. Which was still creepy in itself. The last panel where Xavier speaks may as well come from Magneto, however. The two men truly are one now with how they think.

He actually says " my children " not my x men.

I typed out all of Xaviers words in a post above.

They clearly are not one in how they think , they are one in recognising that Moiras experiences leaves them only one course of action.

[People Of The Earth]

Wow Bro speaking of inappropriate and insulting.... Having the boldfaced audacity to come on a public forum to compare the force's marriage of underage kids, Rape, Genital mutilation, to something in a freakin comic book ito try and win an argument is beyooond ridiculous.

Which part of "not using culture as an umbrella excuse to brush aside crimes" flew over your head??
Which part of "some criminal ACTS transcend the notion, and ritualistic murder is one of them" wasn't clear for you??
Murder belongs to the godawful department, same department as the crimes I listed who are also being defended as part of a "cultural bagage" by some people in this world...
I stand by what I said, using culture as an argument to defend this type of crime is unacceptable and I wish people would stop spring it the way they are doing on this forum.
Did you even read what I said before answering??
What is beyond ridiculous is your posturing.

You're deliberately being obtuse and it seems extremely irresponsible.

No, I'm not, read the actual damn post next time before posturing.
What is irresponsible is using culture as an excuse to justify everything.

No matter what you think or how awful your 'years' of X-readership allows you to dissect the narrative.X-men #7 is going to be read as a young girl triumphantly overcoming an obstacle and readers particularly younger ones will see it as empowering.
Thats. Just. Facts.

Good thing I wasn't discussing the symbolism behind Crucible but the act of Crucible in itself, Something you would have known if you actually read the posts you are answering to instead of getting faux-outraged/posturing over them...

I seriously hope one of those who particularly took issue #7 as inspiration avoid this thread to prevent them seeing what they thought of as empowering wing compared to what was in your post.

if you're going to keep trying to make parallels between real world behavior try expanding your mind.

I will question the motives behind a person comparing marital rape to something insidra comic book tho

More posturing.
Also, I hope you learn to actually read the posts you answer to in the future.
Using culture to justify a crime is in poor taste, no matter what, I Don't care if you've been shocked I came up with those examples.
I'm a woman. Every woman at some point has had to deal with someone trying to tell her what to do with her body, if not downright trying to control it. Those are real issues in the real world, with real people using arguments like "culture" and "customs" to enable it, and what is worrisome to me is seeing the same kind of blank check being used to excuse crimes here, even if happening in a fictional setting.
I won't excuse myself for Calling this out, and I damn sure Don't care about what you think of me or my motives.

There's no ground for you to make a parallel between the two here.
we have no real world equil to the crucible yet you feel you can compare it to the worst of humanity. It looked about as painful as my 11th bday party when No one showed up cause it snowed. i'd like to think that experience left me a different/better person

Exactly the point I made about Dr.Kervokian and euthanisia being as far away from Apocalypse and Crucible as it could possibly be.
Way to illustrate again how you aren't actually reading the posts you are answering to.

It's not murder Dude.. The definition of murder 'is the unlawful killing of a person.' Kill? means 'to cause the death of' Death? 'end of life'
There was nothing unlawful about the Crucible
Arris life didn't end..

It is, murder is the act of voluntarily kill someone.
And Resurrection Protocols being the real deal or fancy cloning is still being debated to this day by the characters themselves, so your assertion is just that: an assertion.
Not THE Truth.

[Nigel909]

According to many Middle Eastern countries, it's moral and legal to forcibly strip women to see if their hymen has been ruptured. Is that moral and okay?

Ok easy part first . If it is legal to do so then it is in fact legal and not a criminal act . That is the fundamental point I was making . Crucible is a legal act and is therefore not a criminal act as claimed in the post I was referring to.

Morality is a much more complex issue and one I'm in no way qualified to make judgements on . Even within my own culture there are huge disagreements about what is of is not moral . For example I refused to anesthetize children for (male ) ritual circumcision and get many (the majority?) Consider it perfectly acceptable . And would say that standing up for my personal morality is anti-Semitic and therefore immoral.

So , no I'm not going to answer your question.
I do not believe there is an absolute standard of morality (I would consider the orthodox attitude of Christianity to homosexuality immoral )
I believe any individuals concept of morality is profoundly influenced by their culture , and in my case the best part of 2000 years of Christian influence on my culture.
Simply ignoring other people's culture and the morality developed from it is wrong. And also never forget some aspects of culture have developed from necessity . In the current climate it's easy to criticise the Chinese taste for bats. I don't know where that came from but I suspect it was originally from necessity.
And now I'm going to completely contradict myself and say eating chimps is always wrong , regardless of necessity !

Matters of morality across cultures is hugely complex , I suspect even for an expert in such matters but , never forget , we are discussing a fictional country within a fictional world .

[Lucyinthesky]

"Charles and me"… when these two have ever agreed on anything. This fact alone should raises suspicion.

They have agreed a lot of times when there´s a greater need than their wishes:





And look magneto talking as a normal person with Stevie without Charles being around, amazing XD



I think what has really changed about them is their willingness to be Moira´s tools, they sort of admited they were what she made of them in House of X.

And of the two I would side eye Charles a little more given his unnecesary manipulation of his death to invoke feelings of cooperation but then again he also did this in the 60´s the first time he died.

So far Magneto has only compromised on the precognitive mutants not being brought back right away even if they are being back at some point, that was the main reason why they visited moira that day and I guess that´s why he made that tea for her and Moira of course was wary XD as a "I am sorry gift but we are going to disobey you on this matter" because he´s aware how much Moira fears Destiny.