Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[Zelena]

They have agreed a lot of times when there´s a greater need than their wishes:

Yes, they agreed a lot of times… but not without arguing a lot before.

They never started from a position that is similar. They had to do compromises. They were far from being the same person.

[Lucyinthesky]

I dont think they are the same person right now, just that Hickman, or really since Charles took over the body of fantomex he´s been acting a little out of character or in character if we take Charles more controlling issues and bring them to the front while leaving his more gentle impulses behind. I think he has a right to be a little pissed, he first was send out of his own home by his students for the danger and Second X-men generation secrets, then he was killed during the fight over Hope, then he was killed by Scott under the Phoenix influence, then he was imprisoned by the Shadow King and was brought back after taking possesion of fantomex body, by this time he seemed to be going like: to hell with this I will do this my own way and leave the school to Kitty. Even Psycloke thoguht it was a good thing to keep an eye on him.

And this is my hc but I don´t think the whole world celebrating the X-men death helped at all, in fact that may have him go over the edge and decide he agreed with Moira completely now, lest make Krakoa together and bring back Magneto into the fold. The problem is that fans think or believe those are all Magneto´s povs, because oh he´s such a bad guy" but really Charles has had them for years without any of Magneto´s influence, magneto has his own quicks and flaws but those are of a whole different nature and Magneto at least is not really that out of character he has always been willing to compromise if it helps mutants in the end, the main difference is that they are both compromising a lot for Moira without really showing HOW they came to the conclusion that it was better to obey her in almost all things.

IMO arguing is a good healthy signal for any relationship especially when one of them is a telepath, I guess what would help this series is to have a lot more arguing, when there´s a reason to argue, from the characters, like Magneto and Wolverine argued about Omega Red even if they agreed in the end they needed to know what was really happening and Percy talked of them as being fellow X-men already so yes they argued but not in a enemies kind of way, but more in a I don´t agree with you completely but lest agree on the points we share as fellow X-men to keep krakoa safe.

[Nigel909]

On or two thoughts on morality and culture.
Way back in the 60s early 70s when I was a student , we occasionally ,when we had a few pennies to spare would eat at a pub called "The Dog" . It sold the very cheapest curries you could get , and of course the true name of the pub was not the dog , it was just assumed that the curries were dog meat and thus the name.
Now many would consider dog meat immoral and yet part of some countries culture. Who's to say who is correct , as students we were too poor to care.
I now love horse meat , can't afford it often , many Americans might consider that immoral , I don't care !
I've vs recently discovered that in some parts of Europe ( including parts of Switzerland) cat meat was a traditional Christmas dish.

It's so easy to look at these things from you're own perspective.
Do you think of the Hindu perspective when you eat beef. Are you sure you're morally superior to 1 billion Indians ?
Muslims and News and pork , are you certain they are wrong and you are right.
Vegans , do they have the moral high ground.

As I say , making moral judgements on other cultures , or even aspects of your own culture is problematic.

[LordUltimus]

On or two thoughts on morality and culture.
Say back in the 60s early 70s when I was a student , we occasionally ,when we had a few pennies to spare would eat at a pub called "The Dog" . It sold the very cheapest curries you could get , and of course the true name of the pub was not the dog , it was just assumed that the curries were dog meat and thus the name.
Now many would consider dog meat immoral and yet part of some countries culture. Who's to say who is correct , as students we were too poor to care.
I now love horse meat , can't afford it often , many Americans might consider that immoral , I don't care !
I've vs recently discovered that in some parts of Europe ( including parts of Switzerland) cat meat was a traditional Christmas dish.

It's so easy to look at these things from you're own perspective.
Do you think of the Hindu perspective when you eat beef. Are you sure you're morally superior to 1 billion Indians ?
Muslims and News and pork , are you certain they are wrong and you are right.
Vegans , do they have the moral high ground.

As I say , making moral judgements on other cultures , or even aspects of your own culture is problematic.

Like the Inhumans?

[People Of The Earth]

" culture doesn't excuse criminal acts , trying to pretend it does is very disturbing "

I'm sure you know that is an extremely problematic sentence .
What is a criminal act can only be defined by the culture in question.

No.
I'm sorry Nigel but no.
The nature of things can't be changed.
A country is entitled to decide human sacrifice is not murder in its laws, it still factually is murder in nature.

An outsider has no right to define what does or does not break the laws of any given culture.

What???
Some laws existed making some humans the properties of others in the US, you tell me other nations had no right to call it out for what it was ?
Some laws exist right now making women the properties of their husbands in some countries, you tell other nations have no right to call it out for what it is?
Surely you can see the unfortunate implications of your words.

Morality is a very different matter . Appealing to a universal concept of morality is possible but again , I would suggest very problematic.

Some acts shouldn't fall Under the perview of culture, and crimes are parts of them.
Thieving, Killing, abusing others and so on.

And again we are discussing a new , alien , culture which is developing in a very hostile (fictional) universe.

Speaker of the Dead from Orson Scott Card is a pretty good illustration why some acts shouldn't be tied-up to culture.

A real world example (I hesitate to do this , everybody seems to hate my real world examples !)

In the UK capitol punishment is illegal .
In some states of the USA execution of criminals is legal.
Does that mean that people in the USA are committing an illegal act because in my culture it is both illegal and immoral ?

They can call apple oranges if they want in the US, it doesn't change the nature of said fruit: the apple is still an apple at the end of the day, no matter how they decide to call it.
To me, it is sugarcoating at its finest.

[Lucyinthesky]

Yes the inhumas, between their marriages of cousins and their use of slaves they would qualify as a foreing culture despite them being accepted as heros by the readers. I just wish marvel had a better way to show positive things of other cultures not just make them do strange things and then say, see its a whole other culture

I don´t agree with crucible, I don´t think it´s neccesary and it was a right thing this time there was some arguing over it between Scott and Nightcrawler because the X-men have always been a whole more than just their powers but what happened to the decimated mutants was an injustice that´s yet to be corrected and I hope it´s gets adreesed in the story in ways in which they can heal and get their powers back better than crucible. that´s my two cents.

[Nigel909]

Like the Inhumans?

My apologies , Lordultimus , I'm afraid I don't grasp the connection between my weird ramblings and the Inhumans .I confess all I know about them comes from x men vs inhumans.
However if they eat horse meat , I thoroughly approve !

[SchismOfMadroces]

My apologies , Lordultimus , I'm afraid I don't grasp the connection between my weird ramblings and the Inhumans .I confess all I know about them comes from x men vs inhumans.
However if they eat horse meat , I thoroughly approve !

Pretty sure that Black Bolt eats horse meat.

[anyajenkins]

Sometimes you need to team up with people you don't like to achieve common goals like beating a common enemy or surviving a war. Ugly for sure but rational and practical .

At least some people understand that personal feelings or values are not above nations or survival.




Considering that Apocalypse won the vote he doesn't need to do anything, the risk is all on the side of the X-men and he would reap the benefits whatever the result. That is how politics works he would only need to show the X-men hypocrisy before the people of Krakoa and that would end up weakening Xavier's side and the others on the board.

On the other hand, if he had lost in the vote he would probably accept the decision like the rule not to kill humans. For whatever the end game of Apocalypse he needs to gain the trust of the people of Krakoa and work together with Xavier and the X-men for the necessary time. He would not risk a civil war if he were the loser of the vote as his position would be weakened before the people of Krakoa and he would risk losing his position on the council. It would be much more practical for him to wait for another opportunity to win a majority and continue with his agenda.

Not to mention that if the option of the ritual were denied, the X-men and the council would have an unsolved problem in their hands so he had everything in his favor and that is why he won.

...there are other ways to protest/try to change unjust laws besides civil war it’s not an either or situation... there are also other solutions to sudden problem of depowered mutants wanting to kill themselves as well, again not an either or...even if it was ‘death’ is not ‘bad’ anymore right? So if a bunch did kill themselves, they’d eventually come back with their powers, even if they wait for longer... better than a horribly, painful death...

[LordUltimus]

My apologies , Lordultimus , I'm afraid I don't grasp the connection between my weird ramblings and the Inhumans .I confess all I know about them comes from x men vs inhumans.
However if they eat horse meat , I thoroughly approve !

The fact that X-Fans attacked the Inhumans culture regularly when the Inhumans push was going on and are now saying culture justifies everything.

[Nigel909]

No.
I'm sorry Nigel but no.
The nature of things can't be changed.
A country is entitled to decide human sacrifice is not murder in its laws, it still factually is murder in nature.



What???
Some laws existed making some humans the properties of others in the US, you tell me other nations had no right to call it out for what it was ?
Some laws exist right now making women the properties of their husbands in some countries, you tell other nations have no right to call it out for what it is?
Surely you can see the unfortunate implications of your words.



Some acts shouldn't fall Under the perview of culture, and crimes are parts of them.
Thieving, Killing, abusing others and so on.



Speaker of the Dead from Orson Scott Card is a pretty good illustration why some acts shouldn't be tied-up to culture.



They can call apple oranges if they want in the US, it doesn't change the nature of said fruit: the apple is still an apple at the end of the day, no matter how they decide to call it.
To me, it is sugarcoating at its finest.

Hi people of earth ,
I really look forward to agreeing with you someday but , yet again , today is not the day !

I think you know I've no idea how to quote point by point , so I'll just stick to my general theme if I may.

The fact is there is no universal standard of legality and I think most states would object to such a concept vigorously (look at brexit). There may or may not be a universal concept of morality but defiantly not law. (Don't know but I imagine that extends to international law)
It really doesn't matter how much I hate another countries law , how immoral I consider it to be it is still the law.

Really tiny trivial example , if you are old enough to work , you are old enough to drink. I can ,as a UK citizen believe that as much as I like . It will in no way affect what happens to an underage drinker in the US . US law is US law.I

Greek pagans not allowed to worship in ancient temples . I hate it .Does my hate affect Greek law ?

I'll leave it at that we obviously disagree but I really don't think we should argue !

[Lucyinthesky]

I Think the attacks on the inhumans was more about their gas killing mutants left, right and center while marvel keep the x-men as the antagonists in the narrative and keep calling cyclops hitler while the inhumans happily keep growing their numbers despite mutants dying and were still the heros of the story, acording to marvel who wanted to push inhumans with everything they had but the Inhumans are not X-men and the X-men are not Inhumans and never have been.

It was a mess of a story from begging to end and imo it did leave the inhumans more than the X-men looking pretty bad imo, a shame really, because they are characters who could have shared with the X-men the feeling of needing to leave earth just to have a little peace for their people.

But I agree crucible is not a culture thing, it´s a bad thoguht out solution to a problem that has 15 years of being adressed in the comics. I guess Hickman sooner or later will bring the counterargument to crucible or at least I hope so.

[Nigel909]

The fact that X-Fans attacked the Inhumans culture regularly when the Inhumans push was going on and are now saying culture justifies everything.

I see, thank you.

I have to plead ignorance here.
But let's face it , we all get a bit inconsistent at times , when it suits us . I'm sure I'm as guilty as anyone else.

[Zelena]

The fact that X-Fans attacked the Inhumans culture regularly when the Inhumans push was going on and are now saying culture justifies everything.

It's rather human to forgive easily the ones we love and hold a forever grudge against the ones we dislike (hello, Wanda).

[Veitha]

The fact that X-Fans attacked the Inhumans culture regularly when the Inhumans push was going on and are now saying culture justifies everything.

Krakoa is not spreading toxic gasses all over the planet and turning people into mutants without their consent soooo...