Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[SiegePerilous02]

Only some people think the line needed it. People would have been talking about anything that came out because its the first big return after the IvX/Age of X-man trashpile.
We will be better off when Hickman's quagmire ends.

That's easy to play a "what if," but the reality is that the line is in a healthier state now than what it was recently. And Hickman's is the take they went with.

The Hickman "quagmire" is evidently working. Saying any other hypothetical, non-existent take would do just as well is pretty pointless because it isn't reality. For the time being, HOX/POX is doing its job for most, and to say otherwise honestly comes across as sour grapes.

Going to disagree pretty hard there. Mansion hasn't been used properly in a long while. I'd say back in Wolverine and the X-men...terrible as that series was...was the last time it got used well. I don't mind having more settings than just that but saying its automatically bad to have a mansion or school is just wrong.

That series began in 2011, that is really not that long ago at all when we consider that this franchise has been around since the 1960s and the mansion has been a part in most of it. To say nothing of other media.

They don't need focus. They have more than enough. Let's try something else out as you said.

But different and pretty controversial things are being done with them, which is resulting in pretty strong reactions (positive and negative).
There was never any chance that Marvel would aim to do another seismic shift like Giant Size or Morrison and NOT have the major players at the forefront. That's almost never how this works.

The fault is with the ones making the comics. Change itself is not bad or good. What change is made matters.

It does matter. And for many readers, these changes are good or interesting or they are willing to see where it goes.
Sorry you're not having a good time, but these changes are not objectively bad and it selling well relative for this period.

[Triniking1234]

Only some people think the line needed it. People would have been talking about anything that came out because its the first big return after the IvX/Age of X-man trashpile.
We will be better off when Hickman's quagmire ends.

People have put into words what they want. It just gets brushed off and ignored by people who go "Its already there" when its clearly not.

Going to disagree pretty hard there. Mansion hasn't been used properly in a long while. I'd say back in Wolverine and the X-men...terrible as that series was...was the last time it got used well. I don't mind having more settings than just that but saying its automatically bad to have a mansion or school is just wrong.

They don't need focus. They have more than enough. Let's try something else out as you said.

"They constantly cry out that they want change, but are heavily resistant to it when it happens."
The fault is with the ones making the comics. Change itself is not bad or good. What change is made matters.

But y'all got change and you're still complaining cuz it's not the change you wanted.
The storyline is still in its infant stage.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Ok easy part first . If it is legal to do so then it is in fact legal and not a criminal act . That is the fundamental point I was making . Crucible is a legal act and is therefore not a criminal act as claimed in the post I was referring to.

Morality is a much more complex issue and one I'm in no way qualified to make judgements on . Even within my own culture there are huge disagreements about what is of is not moral . For example I refused to anesthetize children for (male ) ritual circumcision and get many (the majority?) Consider it perfectly acceptable . And would say that standing up for my personal morality is anti-Semitic and therefore immoral.

So , no I'm not going to answer your question.
I do not believe there is an absolute standard of morality (I would consider the orthodox attitude of Christianity to homosexuality immoral )
I believe any individuals concept of morality is profoundly influenced by their culture , and in my case the best part of 2000 years of Christian influence on my culture.
Simply ignoring other people's culture and the morality developed from it is wrong. And also never forget some aspects of culture have developed from necessity . In the current climate it's easy to criticise the Chinese taste for bats. I don't know where that came from but I suspect it was originally from necessity.
And now I'm going to completely contradict myself and say eating chimps is always wrong , regardless of necessity !

Matters of morality across cultures is hugely complex , I suspect even for an expert in such matters but , never forget , we are discussing a fictional country within a fictional world .

Morality being complex in the real world isn't a sign that you can't judge fictional settings. Krakatoa isn't real.

[scourge]

It does matter. And for many readers, these changes are good or interesting or they are willing to see where it goes.
Sorry you're not having a good time, but these changes are not objectively bad and it selling well relative for this period.

Naw, the changes are objectively bad.
Sales aren't an indication of them being good or not. Especially not with the line being pushed by Marvel as hard as it is.

[BroHomo]

Naw, the changes are objectively bad.
Sales aren't an indication of them being good or not. Especially not with the line being pushed by Marvel as hard as it is.

Lol lawd sooo what would be an indication of a a change being good if not sales, and the majority of nerds loving it?

[SiegePerilous02]

Naw, the changes are objectively bad.
Sales aren't an indication of them being good or not. Especially not with the line being pushed by Marvel as hard as it is.

So sour grapes it is, then?

[spirit2011]

Naw, the changes are objectively bad.
Sales aren't an indication of them being good or not. Especially not with the line being pushed by Marvel as hard as it is.

WE are barely 6 months since the relaunch. Sales are pretty much the usual for x-line

[Nigel909]

Morality being complex in the real world isn't a sign that you can't judge fictional settings. Krakatoa isn't real.

Absolutely true but I was responding to a real world question of legality / morality . I answered the legal and declined to answer the moral.

Krakoa is as you say a fictional country in a fictional world . However some of the principles are the same. The law of Krakoa is an internal matter .What Krakoan law says is legal is legal within the boarders of Krakoa.

Now I would suggest that the morality of a fictional world is , indeed , a complex matter. Naturally this depends on the level to which you choose to immerse yourself in the fiction. I chose "total immersion" as I find this makes fiction far more enjoyable. So I would apply the same doubts and hesitations as I would in the real world . However if I was forced at gun point to make a moral judgement on the fictional world of Krakoa then , in light of the situation the mutants have found themselves in , I would support the current development of their morality , with some reservations.

[Nigel909]

Naw, the changes are objectively bad.
Sales aren't an indication of them being good or not. Especially not with the line being pushed by Marvel as hard as it is.

"The changes are objectively bad"
We are talking about a work of fiction .Opinions on it are surely subjective.
To accept that it is objectively bad I would need to see some hard objective evidence.

[scourge]

"The changes are objectively bad"
We are talking about a work of fiction .Opinions on it are surely subjective.
To accept that it is objectively bad I would need to see some hard objective evidence.

The sheer mass of people saying this is terrible just as much 'hard objective evidence' as "sales are good".

[Nigel909]

Well no. People's opinions are not objective evidence . Opinions are subjective.

At least a sales number is a numerical fact . No facts in unquantified opinion.

[SiegePerilous02]

The sheer mass of people saying this is terrible just as much 'hard objective evidence' as "sales are good".

Well no. People's opinions are not objective evidence . Opinions are subjective.

What Nigel said

And "sheer mass" is seriously overselling things in places like this. Sale numbers aren't objective either, but they are more reliable as a metric.

[Steel Inquisitor]

The sheer mass of people saying this is terrible just as much 'hard objective evidence' as "sales are good".

People can like the direction but dislike ideas in it. For example - Apocalypse is a monster, but this has given new life to the character who badly needed it. They've been slowly working on fixing him for years, like with Evan and Age of X-man.

[spirit2011]

Well no. People's opinions are not objective evidence . Opinions are subjective.

At least a sales number is a numerical fact . No facts in unquantified opinion.

So they say very little about people liking this new direction

[scourge]

Well no. People's opinions are not objective evidence . Opinions are subjective.

At least a sales number is a numerical fact . No facts in unquantified opinion.

It is because you're using "bought the book" as a measure for liking it or not.

And that's not even getting into things like unreliability of sales numbers (ie: Companies massaging the numbers, only units bought by stores and not individual people being counted, not factoring in digital/TPB, etc) but that's a topic for another time since it affects a lot more than just X-books