Countdown for Krakoa's downfall

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm just saying, Kavita Rao aside, I don't recall any human scientists that supposedly believe mutants are the future rushing to reverse M-Day.

What could they do?
It's BS magic, not science.

Like, mutants are still humans since they are born from humans, they are just a different type of human. One day every human born will be a mutant or whatever. It is the irrational racists that respond to that with building murder machines and then go all Pikachu face when the Sentinels are like "they came from you, so we're enslaving you too btw."

[LordUltimus]

What could they do?
It's BS magic, not science.

Like, mutants are still humans since they are born from humans, they are just a different type of human. One day every human born will be a mutant or whatever. It is the irrational racists that respond to that with building murder machines and then go all Pikachu face when the Sentinels are like "they came from you, so we're enslaving you too btw."

That didn't stop Beast.

[LordUltimus]

Kavita Rao tried to help Beast reverse M-day as a way to make up for the cure, a cure that was a product of another planet, same with High Evolutionary, Doctor Strange tried to help, Reed Richards, etc the thing was that all of them were unable to reverse M-Day until the Phoenix Force came to earth, the PF is supposed to be the literal emboidment of creation, of life and dead, so it´s kind of telling it was interested in reactivating the mutant gen.

I mentioned Kavita, High Evo told Beast to piss off, Dr. Strange told him it was impossible, Reed didn't do anything, and PF was ultimately stated to be a bad thing in the same event that repowered mutants.

[Veitha]

I mentioned Kavita, High Evo told Beast to piss off, Dr. Strange told him it was impossible, Reed didn't do anything, and PF was ultimately stated to be a bad thing in the same event that repowered mutants.

It was stated to be a bad thing by the Avengers, but had they not intervened we couldn't have known what it would have done by getting to Hope alone. Still, it repowered mutants in the end and it also bonds best with mutant hosts.

[LordUltimus]

It was stated to be a bad thing by the Avengers, but had they not intervened we couldn't have known what it would have done by getting to Hope alone. Still, it repowered mutants in the end and it also bonds best with mutant hosts.

It ends with the X-Men and Avengers to team up and fight against the mad Phoenix Five. It literally ends with an Avenger and an X-Man going "No More Phoenix".

Feel free to argue that the PF doesn't work that way before said event, my point is that using that particular event as a reference doesn't really work for anyone.

[Lucyinthesky]

I mentioned Kavita, High Evo told Beast to piss off, Dr. Strange told him it was impossible, Reed didn't do anything, and PF was ultimately stated to be a bad thing in the same event that repowered mutants.

High Evolutionary worked with Magneto, that´s why he told off Beast




Reed never does anything when editorial says so XD but at least he tried

Phoenix Force was only dangerous because of the interference from the Avengers, the original plan of the X-men was for Hope to re-start the mutant gen with the Phoenix force help and that´s what actually happened in the end.



And as we can see the mutants who lost their powers didn´t get their powers back but more mutants were born after the event with the Phoenix force.So yes the phoenix force did what is supposed to do, re-start life in all it´s forms in fact in the event Wanda´s powers, whose origin is Chton elder god of Chaos" is an opposite of the Phoenix so it makes sense that magic born from him can be neutralized by the phoenix force.

[Alan2099]

Phoenix Force was only dangerous because of the interference from the Avengers,

Which was not what was shown in the storyline.

Phoenix was dangerous, had a history of being dangerous, and the person who the X-men counted on to control Phoenix was nowhere near ready to do so.

the original plan of the X-men was for Hope to re-start the mutant gen with the Phoenix force help and that´s what actually happened in the end.

It worked out like they wanted to BECAUSE of the Avengers, not in spite of them.

Feel free to argue that the PF doesn't work that way before said event, my point is that using that particular event as a reference doesn't really work for anyone.

Part of the problem with the Phoenix is everytime it appears they feel the need to completely retcon everything about it, so really all you can do is take a look at how the story is showing Phoenix at the time, and the story was showing Phoenix as some dangerous out of control thing.

Honestly, the very idea that the Phoenix was coming to restore mutants is as compltley out of left field as anything else in the story.

[Lucyinthesky]

It worked out like they wanted to BECAUSE of the Avengers, not in spite of them.

I disagreee completely it was Iron Man´s fault the Phoenix got divided in five parts and got into the wrong people. Apart from Wanda´s help with Hope to estabilize the phoenix force, the rest of the Avengers really only made things worse by beggining a completely unnecesary fight with the X-men.

The X-men have deal way more times with the phoenix than the avengers if they were worried about it they should have talked it off with them instead of trying to kidnap Hope by force and begin a fight with Utopia but then again marvel needed a cheap event so they all went to war over nothing and only made things worse.

[Zelena]

Honestly, the very idea that the Phoenix was coming to restore mutants is as compltley out of left field as anything else in the story.

Where does that idea come from?

[Metal Sphere]

What do alt realities have to do with this?

Simple, when given the freedom to create alt futures where anything could happen we never get a world where the supposed next step of evolution is actually around and/or dominant. After enough of those (and seeing ridiculous all-zombie futures played out instead) it becomes clear that Marvel has no interest in a world full of mutants. And someone brought up a good point: Mutants are dictating they're the next step of evolution, and actively working against humanity going in another direction (transhumanism has long been considered the actual next step for humans with the increasing mastery of tech). So once again, the story overall tone shifts from mutants being a sympathetic group persecuted by oppressors to a group awaiting coronation and eliminating anything that would deviate from that.

I've always found it fascinating that humans in the MU are going in all sorts of different directions. You've got a tech corner, a magic corner, folks who gain powers by being exposed to certain things. It led to a dynamism between wildly different groups and origins than simply "I came out my mother like this". A world where even a quarter of the population is a mutant is not as interesting as the status quo.

Also, can't fault the Avengers with their handling of the Phoenix Force. It's a tired discussion topic, but a planet's defenders defending their planet against a known cosmic terror is not wrong. No matter how you slice it. Gambling a planet's fate for your people is selfish as hell.

[Lucyinthesky]

It´s complicated because it had to do with the Messiah Trilogy, in short Hope was capable of re-starting the mutant gen with the first apparition of the five new mutants post M-day, so the X-men hoped she could do the same for the rest if she got a handle of the phoenix force, but they didn´t force the issue, only trained Hope so she could be ready if/when the Phoenix force came to earth, which coincidentally was the same thing the Avengers ended doing because they came to the same conclusion, the phoenix was there for Hope and she needed to be ready for it.

I've always found it fascinating that humans in the MU are going in all sorts of different directions. You've got a tech corner, a magic corner, folks who gain powers by being exposed to certain things. It led to a dynamism between wildly different groups and origins than simply "I came out my mother like this". A world where even a quarter of the population is a mutant is not as interesting as the status quo.

So the mutants should just let themselves be killed and also let Krakoa end just because a world without them is more interesting? ok to each otheir own I guess.

Tbh I don´t see why fans who obviously don´t enjoy X-men and neither are fans of them waste their time in a forum dedicated to X-men stories. If you don´t enjoy the story just read what you do enjoy and go on, as simple as that imo.

But well one thing I can honestly say this new status quo brought back was the fact that X-men stories are not just about survival anymore, I can´t wait to read the X of Spades crossover, who has an origin in the Excalibur book which is about magic, on the X-men title we are about to have a confrontation between the Shiar, brood and the X-men and the EMPYRE tie in that´s going to be in Genosha and Magik is activelly working with Dr Strange in Savage Avengers agaist Kulan Gath, in Wolverine you have the Vampire nation who´s also fighting the Avengers so yes, this time is allowing for different kind of X-men stories.

[Zelena]

Simple, when given the freedom to create alt futures where anything could happen we never get a world where the supposed next step of evolution is actually around and/or dominant. After enough of those (and seeing ridiculous all-zombie futures played out instead) it becomes clear that Marvel has no interest in a world full of mutants. And someone brought up a good point: Mutants are dictating they're the next step of evolution, and actively working against humanity going in another direction (transhumanism has long been considered the actual next step for humans with the increasing mastery of tech). So once again, the story overall tone shifts from mutants being a sympathetic group persecuted by oppressors to a group awaiting coronation and eliminating anything that would deviate from that.

I've always found it fascinating that humans in the MU are going in all sorts of different directions. You've got a tech corner, a magic corner, folks who gain powers by being exposed to certain things. It led to a dynamism between wildly different groups and origins than simply "I came out my mother like this". A world where even a quarter of the population is a mutant is not as interesting as the status quo.

I suppose it's just a matter of who do you identify as a reader… Just being born with a power… you don't deserve a lot of credit… it's a bit limited.

More, it doesn't speak a lot about freedom, you cannot escape who you are and don't evolve from that… you just have to accept.

Edit: Actually yes, you can add things to your 'mutant identity' — as we haven't just one identity — but it dilutes the concept…

[LordUltimus]

High Evolutionary stopped with Magneto, who specifically noted the method to restore his powers was super risky and wouldn't work with anyone else.

Phoenix in AvX was the result of tie-ins telling a different story from themselves and other tie-ins. Just look at both Civil Wars.

[Chris0013]

Honestly, the very idea that the Phoenix was coming to restore mutants is as compltley out of left field as anything else in the story.

Exactly...all previous information on PF was that it was a destructive force....but somehow in this situation Cyclops and company are all "The PF is here to save us!!!"

[Metal Sphere]

I suppose it's just a matter of who do you identify as a reader… Just being born with a power… you don't deserve a lot of credit… it's a bit limited.

More, it doesn't speak a lot about freedom, you cannot escape who you are and don't evolve from that… you just have to accept.

Edit: Actually yes, you can add things to your 'mutant identity' — as we haven't just one identity — but it dilutes the concept…

Correct, one of the strengths of the traditional superhero model (like Spider-Man) is that life happened to you and you got powers. Some people go out and seek out this life change, others have it thrust upon them via tragedy. It is one part of them, but being a mutant is all-consuming. The metaphor is much stronger when it's not something you're born with. Some X-Men actually have elements of this, but as you said it's stronger when it's a result of life conspiring against you. It's a great vehicle for characterization, especially if the character has been around before being powered up.

It's why I look forward to Krakoa's downfall more because of the themes Hickman is going to touch on in the process, the various ideological shifts certain characters may have, and the fallout world wide. Doomsaying alone for the sake of it isn't very fun.