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  1. #1261
    All-New Member rodski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Just because something isn’t western doesn’t mean it’s fanatical and bloodthirsty. They are establishing systems in their nation that are much more advanced than anything in first world countries. They develop free housing and food, believe in rehabilitation rather than punishment, celebrate their differences, and give the world life-saving medicines. This whole idea that they’re “barbaric” really doesn’t make sense in context to what we’ve seen of Dawn of X so far.
    Nope. Don't try to turn this into a western culture superiority thing. That's not going to fly. I'm speaking about how fanatical and blood thirsty (note: I never used "barbaric") some characters have become. These are characters that I've known and felt deeply connected to for many, many years. it just doesn't jibe with how these characters have been presented for years. They cheer on the brutal attack of Aero by Apocalypse?! Storm (one of the most just and sensible character in existence) leads them in a cult-like chant as members are reborn to the community?! They laugh and encourage Daken to stab himself in the head for mere entertainment?! The benevolence and nobility that were at their core seems to be gone. Now, if this is all part of an overarching storyline, i will be ecstatic because that would be new and very interesting! (A slow burner of subtle corruption being masterfully woven into the story ala what Wolfman and Perez did with Raven in The New Teen Titans - awesome!) However, until that is revealed to be the case, I'm a bit worried that these "heroes" aren't being as aspirational anymore. I miss some oof the humanity that was these mutants' strongest attribute.

  2. #1262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    because that's what mutants have been forced to become, this isnt something new ffs the greeting of the team is "welcome to the x-men, i hope you survive the experience".
    Mutant's are NOT for the faint of heart, it never was

    Mutants have a history of constant violence anf pain and an unique relantionship with death.
    It's not barbaric, its a high sci fi concept that aknowledges mutant history and culture and pushes it forward.
    That was a catchy phrase to get readers to read the book, not something they said to new recruits or the new person died every time it was said. It's marketing. Its about the X-men, nt mutants in general.

    You need to read more books outside the X-line if you think death only occurs on a large scale in the X-line.

  3. #1263
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodski View Post
    Nope. Don't try to turn this into a western culture superiority thing.
    Yes, the western superiority thing.

    That's not going to fly. I'm speaking about how fanatical and blood thirsty (note: I never used "barbaric") some characters have become. These are characters that I've known and felt deeply connected to for many, many years. it just doesn't jibe with how these characters have been presented for years. They cheer on the brutal attack of Aero by Apocalypse?!
    Oh goody.... the Crucible argument again. Gonna Ctrl+C & Ctrl+V this one, folks:

    https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...mortal-xombat/
    “ Crucible is an act of ritual combat in which a depowered mutant will fight Apocalypse to the death so that they can be reborn – and that’s exactly what happens when Melody, clad in an X-Men training uniform and a flower crown like a sacrificial maiden, steps into the arena. It’s violent. It’s brutal. It’s tough to read. But here’s the brilliant thing – it never feels like a defeat. It’s a victory.

    Crucible is a ritual of choice. That choice is immediately offered to Melody; her sister Husk stresses that Crucible will happen only “If you want it.” And during combat with Apocalypse, she’s offered an exit and healing, but she refuses. Rather than accept victimhood, she overturns it – she can’t pick up a sword and fight Scarlet Witch or the human bigots that would kill her, but she can fight Apocalypse, whose particular brand of pompous negging takes the form of any self-doubts and self-recriminations Melody has had since she was depowered. Leinil Francis Yu, returning to regular art duties after being away for two issues, does fantastic work during this fight scene; it looks like it hurts, with Melody alternating taking Apocalypse’s blows like a broken doll and standing up, fists raised, bloody but unbowed. She’s fighting for herself, her true self, and she will no longer be depowered or diminished in man’s world. Why is she here, Apocalypse asks? “To fight and die for my people. Like a mutant.” But death for mutants doesn’t necessarily mean what it used to. Melody isn’t choosing the abyss, but survival.”



    Storm (one of the most just and sensible character in existence) leads them in a cult-like chant as members are reborn to the community?! They laugh and encourage Daken to stab himself in the head for mere entertainment?! The benevolence and nobility that were at their core seems to be gone. Now, if this is all part of an overarching storyline, i will be ecstatic because that would be new and very interesting! (A slow burner of subtle corruption being masterfully woven into the story ala what Wolfman and Perez did with Raven in The New Teen Titans - awesome!) However, until that is revealed to be the case, I'm a bit worried that these "heroes" aren't being as aspirational anymore. I miss some oof the humanity that was these mutants' strongest attribute.[/QUOTE]

    Storm and the nation of Krakoa are celebrating her friends returning back to life after sacrificing themselves to stop the destruction of all they’ve built. Nothing cult-y about that at all. They’re literally coming back to life.

    Daken and Logan are bonding in a way only they can. Complaining about Wolverines being violent with each other is an odd thing to hear from an X-fan.

  4. #1264
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Where is that Melody image from?

  5. #1265
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post

    Storm and the nation of Krakoa are celebrating her friends returning back to life after sacrificing themselves to stop the destruction of all they’ve built. Nothing cult-y about that at all. They’re literally coming back to life.
    I think we are supposed to be somewhat disturbed by the Crucible - that's why Scott and Kurt had their conversation about it. I also understand why mutants are willing, perhaps even eager, to join in. These are people who had a literal part of themselves ripped away. For someone who can fly, it must seem like a runner having their legs amputated, and for someone whose powers include any form of telepathy or enhanced senses, like suddenly waking up blind. Now they are told that they can be restored, and can see with their own eyes that death in the Crucible is a mere momentary inconvenience. If I was told I could spend 10 minutes dead, and after I would come back with a body that was 25, and no health issues, I'd probably leap at the chance. Heck, just being able to return to a time before her fibromyalgia would have my wife jumping forward.

    Not seeing the weirdness inherent in this is a mistake, but so is not being able to see anything but.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  6. #1266
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Where is that Melody image from?
    Fearless by Seanan McGuire & Claire Roe!

    Reading it before X-Men #7 acts as a prelude to Crucible and Aero’s main motivation for wanting to go through with it.

  7. #1267
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodski View Post
    Nope. Don't try to turn this into a western culture superiority thing. That's not going to fly. I'm speaking about how fanatical and blood thirsty (note: I never used "barbaric") some characters have become. These are characters that I've known and felt deeply connected to for many, many years. it just doesn't jibe with how these characters have been presented for years. They cheer on the brutal attack of Aero by Apocalypse?! Storm (one of the most just and sensible character in existence) leads them in a cult-like chant as members are reborn to the community?! They laugh and encourage Daken to stab himself in the head for mere entertainment?! The benevolence and nobility that were at their core seems to be gone. Now, if this is all part of an overarching storyline, i will be ecstatic because that would be new and very interesting! (A slow burner of subtle corruption being masterfully woven into the story ala what Wolfman and Perez did with Raven in The New Teen Titans - awesome!) However, until that is revealed to be the case, I'm a bit worried that these "heroes" aren't being as aspirational anymore. I miss some oof the humanity that was these mutants' strongest attribute.
    Not a single person was cheering during that fight. If anything, they only cheered when she was reborn, which was appropriate.

    It would be easier to accept criticisms of this fight if they were accurate. You cannot call them blood thirsty and accuse them of something the art is clearly not depicting them as doing.

  8. #1268
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    I think we are supposed to be somewhat disturbed by the Crucible - that's why Scott and Kurt had their conversation about it. I also understand why mutants are willing, perhaps even eager, to join in. These are people who had a literal part of themselves ripped away. For someone who can fly, it must seem like a runner having their legs amputated, and for someone whose powers include any form of telepathy or enhanced senses, like suddenly waking up blind. Now they are told that they can be restored, and can see with their own eyes that death in the Crucible is a mere momentary inconvenience. If I was told I could spend 10 minutes dead, and after I would come back with a body that was 25, and no health issues, I'd probably leap at the chance. Heck, just being able to return to a time before her fibromyalgia would have my wife jumping forward.

    Not seeing the weirdness inherent in this is a mistake, but so is not being able to see anything but.
    No duh it’s weird. The X-Men are supposed to be oddballs and weirdos & it’s been that way since their very original conception with Xavier recruiting five teenagers to his mansion in the middle of nowhere. I’m not gonna waste words spelling out the obvious, but I can tell what is being said everytime “cult” or “barbaric” or “segregation” is brought up.

    And having questions about something doesn’t mean it’s inherently wrong, just that there are questions. Kurt is right to question but does that mean he’s secretly running a game against Xavier and Magneto? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Not a single person was cheering during that fight. If anything, they only cheered when she was reborn, which was appropriate.

    It would be easier to accept criticisms of this fight if they were accurate. You cannot call them blood thirsty and accuse them of something the art is clearly not depicting them as doing.
    In fact, the Guthries had to be held back when •-[A]-• was hitting Aero.

  9. #1269
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    No duh it’s weird. The X-Men are supposed to be oddballs and weirdos & it’s been that way since their very original conception with Xavier recruiting five teenagers to his mansion in the middle of nowhere. I’m not gonna waste words spelling out the obvious, but I can tell what is being said everytime “cult” or “barbaric” or “segregation” is brought up.

    And having questions about something doesn’t mean it’s inherently wrong, just that there are questions. Kurt is right to question but does that mean he’s secretly running a game against Xavier and Magneto? No.



    In fact, the Guthries had to be held back when •-[A]-• was hitting Aero.
    But it does mean that if things shift, or more of a dark underbelly gets revealed, that we might want to look towards Kurt and Scott to be among the first to do more than merely question. Exactly how that plays out isn't known yet, and might not be known to anyone outside of Hickman and one or two others currently (maybe not even them outside of a vague outline), but I'm sure something is coming. Too much seems to be being set up for it not to - maybe the bargain with the villains collapses and they take over, or maybe Xavier is even creepier under the surface than he first appears (it's not like that hasn't been done before), or maybe the outside villains pull off another stage in their plans, or maybe something out of left field, but something is going to happen - it wouldn't be comics otherwise.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  10. #1270
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That was a catchy phrase to get readers to read the book, not something they said to new recruits or the new person died every time it was said. It's marketing. Its about the X-men, nt mutants in general.

    You need to read more books outside the X-line if you think death only occurs on a large scale in the X-line.
    This isnt about the rest, but about the x-men mythos and continuity of mutants, I don't care about ther rest of marvel and it isnt to this discussion and they are NOT. needed

  11. #1271
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodski View Post
    Nope. Don't try to turn this into a western culture superiority thing. That's not going to fly. I'm speaking about how fanatical and blood thirsty (note: I never used "barbaric") some characters have become. These are characters that I've known and felt deeply connected to for many, many years. it just doesn't jibe with how these characters have been presented for years. They cheer on the brutal attack of Aero by Apocalypse?! Storm (one of the most just and sensible character in existence) leads them in a cult-like chant as members are reborn to the community?! They laugh and encourage Daken to stab himself in the head for mere entertainment?! The benevolence and nobility that were at their core seems to be gone. Now, if this is all part of an overarching storyline, i will be ecstatic because that would be new and very interesting! (A slow burner of subtle corruption being masterfully woven into the story ala what Wolfman and Perez did with Raven in The New Teen Titans - awesome!) However, until that is revealed to be the case, I'm a bit worried that these "heroes" aren't being as aspirational anymore. I miss some oof the humanity that was these mutants' strongest attribute.
    so much reaching

  12. #1272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    No duh it’s weird. The X-Men are supposed to be oddballs and weirdos & it’s been that way since their very original conception with Xavier recruiting five teenagers to his mansion in the middle of nowhere. I’m not gonna waste words spelling out the obvious, but I can tell what is being said everytime “cult” or “barbaric” or “segregation” is brought up.
    There's a big difference between being an eccentric nerd and being in a cult. The X-men for the majority of their existence are the former, not the latter. That didn't begin until Krakoa. Utopia was controversial but nobody was calling them a cult.

    And having questions about something doesn’t mean it’s inherently wrong, just that there are questions. Kurt is right to question but does that mean he’s secretly running a game against Xavier and Magneto? No.
    Because he's right to question it? Hickman's been up front that Krakoa's going to fall, so people are going to rightfully assume when cracks appear they'll lead to bigger things.


    In fact, the Guthries had to be held back when •-[A]-• was hitting Aero.
    Which you disapprove of. Please, try to understand why they reacted like they did rather than blindly accepting Apocalypse gutting their sister like he was a gladiator in ancient Rome.

  13. #1273
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    There's a big difference between being an eccentric nerd and being in a cult. The X-men for the majority of their existence are the former, not the latter. That didn't begin until Krakoa. Utopia was controversial but nobody was calling them a cult.
    Xavier militarizing five teens and sending them to fight evil mutants who want to kill them is a little more than being an "eccentric nerd."
    A lot of the cult accusations do come across as hyperbolic. I think it's just as overly simplistic as any "Krakoa is 100% perfect and will work out" comments, if not more so. Maybe they exhibit what some would consider cult like behavior in some instances, but this isn't a system built around the veneration of one specific person or object.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Which you disapprove of. Please, try to understand why they reacted like they did rather than blindly accepting Apocalypse gutting their sister like he was a gladiator in ancient Rome.
    They reacted that way because of course it wasn't an easy thing to watch (the issue doesn't make any pretext that it is) and they instinctively don't want to see violence done to a family member. But intellectually they know death can now be undone, and they are likely as happy as Melody is with the end results.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 03-29-2020 at 06:25 PM.

  14. #1274
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Not a single person was cheering during that fight. If anything, they only cheered when she was reborn, which was appropriate.

    It would be easier to accept criticisms of this fight if they were accurate. You cannot call them blood thirsty and accuse them of something the art is clearly not depicting them as doing.
    We don't see either way. Lenil Yu isn't the best at crowd scenes.

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Xavier militarizing five teens and sending them to fight evil mutants who want to kill them is a little more than being an "eccentric nerd."
    You should tell that to Tycon, I was using their description for the X-men. You're right that they were child soldiers but they weren't cultists.

    A lot of the cult accusations do come across as hyperbolic. I think it's just as overly simplistic as any "Krakoa is 100% perfect and will work out" comments, if not more so. Maybe they exhibit what some would consider cult like behavior in some instances, but this isn't a system built around the veneration of one specific person or object.
    Cults don't all form around specific individuals, Scientologists don't worship David Miscavige. There is no "maybe" about it. The fact that you're noticing the X-men doing cultist activities ins't setting off alarm bells? This isn't normal behaviour for them to exhibit in any case. The idea they're upholding is a nation, and a living entity unto itself. People forget Krakoa is sentient.

    They reacted that way because of course it wasn't an easy thing to watch (the issue doesn't make any pretext that it is) and they instinctively don't want to see violence done to a family member. But intellectually they know death can now be undone, and they are likely as happy as Melody is with the end results.
    This ignores the context of how it's being defended, as though its the equivalent of Margi Gras and that's it harmless and has no bad connotations. Why wouldn't they be happy Melody retried to them whole? It's not the process of the Five they were protesting it's how people die to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    This isnt about the rest, but about the x-men mythos and continuity of mutants, I don't care about ther rest of marvel and it isnt to this discussion and they are NOT. needed
    Your argument isn't built on solid ground if you're going to ignore the context about the X-men and Marvel as a whole. How the X-men relate to the Marvel universe is relevant, considering they have always been in the Marvel universe. Facts don't stop being facts by pretending they don't exist.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 03-29-2020 at 08:28 PM.

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