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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    They fell because of Sideous, Order 66, and Anakin going Vader.
    Ignorance, disconnection and complete negligence. Yes, my point exactly.

    They were completely and woefully incapable of dealing with the real threats against them, and in fact created one of them, because they were no longer true to what they were meant to be.

    Don't get me wrong, Sidious is a monster and absolutely deserves blame. And Order 66 is the kind of genocidal nonsense that marks anybody as evil. I'm not trying to argue that the Jedi were evil, not at all.

    But the films are thematically predicated on the premise that the old order had lost it's way, and Luke helped right the ship by ignoring Yoda and Obi-Wan when they told him how to be a Jedi vis a vis Vader.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    For all it's other problems,AOTC sort of deals a bit with the Jedi being a bit out of touch.

    -The movie practically begins with the Jedi dismissing Padme's concerns about Count Dooku because he used to be a Jedi (and despite the fact that he's the leader of the movement that's got the Republic on the verge of war that they were just talking about moments before!).

    -The Jedi librarian being almost insulted by Obi-Wan's implication that the archives can possibly have errors.

    -Yoda lamenting that the Jedi are being too arrogant-even the older and more experienced-when talking with Obi-Wan and Yoda in the hallway.

    -Yoda wondering how the Clone army could've escaped their notice, and Mace saying something about "our ability to use the force being diminished" and Yoda warning that the Sith lord probably knows this and they shouldn't let the senate know(BTW this is never really followed up on, even in Clone Wars).
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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Ignorance, disconnection and complete negligence. Yes, my point exactly.

    They were completely and woefully incapable of dealing with the real threats against them, and in fact created one of them, because they were no longer true to what they were meant to be.

    Don't get me wrong, Sidious is a monster and absolutely deserves blame. And Order 66 is the kind of genocidal nonsense that marks anybody as evil. I'm not trying to argue that the Jedi were evil, not at all.

    But the films are thematically predicated on the premise that the old order had lost it's way, and Luke helped right the ship by ignoring Yoda and Obi-Wan when they told him how to be a Jedi vis a vis Vader.
    Which is why I will forever lament that Luke didn't start a reformed 'grey' Jedi Order.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Did the Gotal guy who ratted out Ashoka and the sisters remind anybody of Torgo from Manos the Hand of Fate/MST3K?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEOYQYhWSoI
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Which is why I will forever lament that Luke didn't start a reformed 'grey' Jedi Order.
    Depends what you mean by gray. There are no gray Jedi. Darkness is darkness in any measure.

    Honestly, Luke's mistake is trying to restart the order at all. The academy, the students, it's all wrong at every turn. What the Jedi really need to do is take a page from the Sith Rule of 2. One master training one apprentice. Not isolated in a school bit wandering the galaxy righting wrongs and helping people. Connecting. Think about the premise of the old tv series Kung Fu, but with Jedi. When that apprentice is knighted, each takes a new apprentice and the cycle repeats. Slow, but always focused on connections to the people and doing good. It would take generations to increase their numbers, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    You can't rebuild the order, the order was part of the problem. You need to rebuild the Jedi as people and galactic citizens.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Depends what you mean by gray. There are no gray Jedi. Darkness is darkness in any measure.
    Thinking less in terms of 'darkness' and more acknowledging attachment and emotion as being essential to a healthy outlook.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Thinking less in terms of 'darkness' and more acknowledging attachment and emotion as being essential to a healthy outlook.
    Then yes, I agree with you almost completely.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Depends what you mean by gray. There are no gray Jedi. Darkness is darkness in any measure.

    Honestly, Luke's mistake is trying to restart the order at all. The academy, the students, it's all wrong at every turn. What the Jedi really need to do is take a page from the Sith Rule of 2. One master training one apprentice. Not isolated in a school bit wandering the galaxy righting wrongs and helping people. Connecting. Think about the premise of the old tv series Kung Fu, but with Jedi. When that apprentice is knighted, each takes a new apprentice and the cycle repeats. Slow, but always focused on connections to the people and doing good. It would take generations to increase their numbers, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    You can't rebuild the order, the order was part of the problem. You need to rebuild the Jedi as people and galactic citizens.
    The Order as it became was the problem, but I'm not sure if that means The Order as a concept was wrong. For all we know the problems of the Jedi during the Clone Wars wasn't present during the High Republic, and that was the Jedi's Golden Age.

    I mean, I guess I can see the appeal of The Jedi as wandering ronin but that was what they were reduced to because of Order 66, and from a galactic perspective I think The Order is more necessary.

  9. #54
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    I finally got around to the recent episode and man do I not care for it. Nothing is accomplished this episode besides a cliche backstory and the Nite owls showing up. However both of these could be accomplished while getting off the planet. This feels like the arc equivalent of the sewer level. Like it would be fine to do this with a longer season but knowing this is it the episode felt like padding. We could be seeing the Vong or getting a version the Utapau episode but instead these three idiots are screwing about with the pykes.

    Really hope this picks up because going from the bad batch to this just sucks.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The Order as it became was the problem, but I'm not sure if that means The Order as a concept was wrong. For all we know the problems of the Jedi during the Clone Wars wasn't present during the High Republic, and that was the Jedi's Golden Age.

    I mean, I guess I can see the appeal of The Jedi as wandering ronin but that was what they were reduced to because of Order 66, and from a galactic perspective I think The Order is more necessary.
    Eventually, almost certainly. But my point is that you need to look at the real problem: the Jedi had become disconnected from the people they were meant to serve and trapped by the dogma of monastic isolation.

    You need to fix that underlying problem first. Luke's academy was another isolated, insular conclave, by all appearances. He repeated the old order's mistakes.

    A slower, more community approach leaves the galaxy and the nascent movement vulnerable, but recreates the connections between the Jedi and the people. And forces the Jedi to relearn attachment and meaningful emotion in a healthy way. Eventually their numbers would grow large enough that the institution would redevelop organically, without the baggage and dogma of the old ways. At least for a time.

    But it also reintroduces them to a galaxy that has all but forgotten them in a more measured, and thoughtful way. A dozen super wizards suddenly springing up is scary and potentially threatening. A couple of wandering warrior monks are a curiosity at first, and then a blessing as the people see what the Jedi stand for again.

    Eventually people will actively embrace the order's return. But that needs to be earned. And such things are all too often earned slowly.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Eventually, almost certainly. But my point is that you need to look at the real problem: the Jedi had become disconnected from the people they were meant to serve and trapped by the dogma of monastic isolation.

    You need to fix that underlying problem first. Luke's academy was another isolated, insular conclave, by all appearances. He repeated the old order's mistakes.

    A slower, more community approach leaves the galaxy and the nascent movement vulnerable, but recreates the connections between the Jedi and the people. And forces the Jedi to relearn attachment and meaningful emotion in a healthy way. Eventually their numbers would grow large enough that the institution would redevelop organically, without the baggage and dogma of the old ways. At least for a time.

    But it also reintroduces them to a galaxy that has all but forgotten them in a more measured, and thoughtful way. A dozen super wizards suddenly springing up is scary and potentially threatening. A couple of wandering warrior monks are a curiosity at first, and then a blessing as the people see what the Jedi stand for again.

    Eventually people will actively embrace the order's return. But that needs to be earned. And such things are all too often earned slowly.
    I think a new Jedi Order would definitely be more open to the public and to the general citizenry, especially coming from Luke. Maybe Luke separated them off just to get their initial training out of the way before bringing them to the wider galaxy, I don't think he was intentionally trying to cut them off even if that's what ultimately happened. Could've been also to keep them safe from Empire remnants or anyone who would want to exploit them.

    And of course the important aspect would be how Luke was teaching them to begin with.

    To be honest, I think after the Empire people would probably have embraced having the Jedi around again, especially if they were made aware how instrumental Luke was in defeating the Empire. Especially with the legendary status afforded to the Jedi even after the purge happened.

  12. #57

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    Apparently they did not finish the Utapau arc? That would be a real shame. The unfinished Episodes looked great.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    One thing I've just thought about....it's unclear what relationship Luke's academy had, if any, with the New Republic (The Jedi, after all, are part of the government as seen in the prequels). I don't even think any Disney novels/comics etc. go into it.
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  14. #59
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    These Martez sisters are so dumb .

  15. #60
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    Man that arc sucked.

    Ultimately the story of how Ahsoka came back is a story I probably could've lived without seeing. The sisters aren't all that interesting, the plot was too long, and it had a fair bit of padding. This should've been cut down an episode or two and maybe the Bad Batch teaming up with the Mandolorians to fight Maul or something to replace it. I get it, Filoni likes his creation but this is the final season and we didn't need him screwing about.
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