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  1. #676
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERON View Post
    Kids aren't stupid. They know the difference between the main books and the kiddie books, and they want to read the main books. But the main books haven't been written for kids in 20 years. To use Dan DiDio's own words, the main books are for 45 year olds, and the Scooby-Doo books are for kids. If you really want kids to get back into comics, do what Marvel and DC did from the Golden Age up until the DiDio/Quesada years and make the main books accessible to kids. And that doesn't mean dumb them down and turn them into kiddie books. It means write each book as if it were someone's first, tell timeless "hero vs. villain" stories with characters kids can relate to, and - most importantly - sell the books in places where kids have access to them at prices they can afford.
    Kinda disagree - Kids aren't against "kiddie" books. Dumbed down books yeah they hate, but books aimed at them no problem. I knew Goosebumps was a kiddie book, and I didn't care. Not once did I go "No, I want to read mainstream horror." And from what little I've heard, the new kids and YA lines seem to be doing good. I just think they need to be pushed out there more. I'd like to see those OGNs or whatever at Wal Mart.

  2. #677
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Now that DC may be gaining new blood at the top, let's talk about what we HOPE will happen rather than what we FEAR will happen (5G sucking, DC shutting down or going all-reprint).

    What do you WANT to happen with DC regarding:

    - their superhero comics line - in terms of what titles they should publish and how they should deal with continuity and legacy replacements
    - their mature titles
    - their kids line
    - what imprints should they have / not have
    - their OGNs
    - any co-ventures with other comics companies or entertainment companies
    - their back catalog reprints - what should they reprint, how should they reprint it (i.e. full series, best ofs, themed reprints), what formats do you want (e.g. trades, archives, omnis, etc.)
    - any other shake ups in management / editorial needed?
    - anything else you can think of

    Even if some of the above wasn't under DiDio's purview, tell us what you want from DC in all areas going forward in order to make it the company that fulfills its potential in your eyes.

    Who knows? DC might be watching fan reaction to the recent shake up and decide to make further changes to the way they do business.
    More things like Black Label, the Zoom/Ink/Kids/YA lines, more one offs, OGNs, etc. More good and complete stories in general. More Elseworld type books. Just good reads all around.

  3. #678
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I still wonder why fans of superheroes in Japan never have these kinds of disputes even though they have 54 years worth of Ultramen, 49 years worth of Kamen Riders, and 45 years worth of sentai ("Power Rangers") teams.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Probably because those are live action series and each series only lasts so long till the next guy. They don't have literal decades of just that one guy being Ultraman.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Did he take heat for controversial opinions other higher up's did? I thought some of that was going on, to some extent, as a comic reader. Whenever a bad decision was made, Didio made sure everyone blamed him for it.
    Yes. In fact. I know from conversations with people that he did.

    He really viewed his job to be a hate sponge of sorts.

    There's at least three occasions I can think of where somebody else below him made an unpopular call and after the hate started, he implied or claimed he was the one behind it even though he was actually AGAINST IT at the time behind the scenes. And I've heard the same was true of WB edicts over his head.

    Again, his branding was modeled on being kind of a professional heel. He wanted to come across as the bad guy because he thought he could take the flak easier.

    A big tip off was whenever he'd say, "We hear your criticisms and we'll do better."

    If it was his own decision, there's a decent chance he'd keep trying to do it various ways because he's a stubborn guy. Generally, when he course corrected, he was covering for somebody else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    At least as far as Nightwing goes, I have yet to figure out the business theory Didio and DC were following that somehow explains the last several years.

    Seriously, if you have "business theory X" that shows the treatment of that character and book *weren't* because of a personal bias, I'd love to hear it, because I can't think of anything that explains it otherwise. And I really hate being one of those fans who accuses a professional of bad business just because I don't like something. But nothing else fits, that I can think of.
    The idea I think was to figure out a way to license out Dick to media productions that didn't have rights to Titans or Batman.

    That's part of WHY you have this whole idea of "boiling characters down to one sentence", so you can license them separately.

    Same reason Star Trek Discovery used a different Enterprise design. It wasn't because they didn't have the rights to other TV versions (TOS or the Cage) but because they want to charge merch partners separate licenses for each show to increase merch revenue.

    The idea of a complete shared universe as a master license not only generates less revenue than piecemeal licenses but has really awkward interactions with things like creator participation contracts.

    Part of why Bart Allen became Kid Flash, I've heard, was to cut out Waid and Wieringo from a check. The participation agreements are okay when it's 1-2 characters but gets obscene with big casts. I also gather that was why Caitlin Snow Killer Frost was created because as a hybrid work, nobody got a participation check.

    If David Zavimbe/Batwing gets used, Grant Morrison gets a check. But since Lucas Fox/Batwing is a derivative of multiple characters, it skirts the participation check issue since its not wholly original to any one set of creators.

    I think this kind of thing got softened a bit to make sure old creators were getting checks but they had to have some workaround or they'd be bled dry.

    My impression is that participation checks come OUT OF the publishing division but no money goes INTO the publishing division when WB uses them. So they were essentially always looking for a way to avoid being bled dry.

    If Warner Bros. did a 100% accurate Crisis (or Final Night or whatever) movie with all the post-participation check contract 80s characters, the checks would sink the publishing division because they'd have to pay out to creators without getting any money in from the film division.

    So they're always trying to slice things up weird ways to get more money from the licensees.

  5. #680
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    This also gets into why DC does fairly loose story adaptations/mashups.

    When they do All-Star Superman animated, Morrison gets a check for the story and each new character and they omitted a few of the new ones.

    When they did Son of Batman, I THINK Morrison gets a check for Damian but not a story check since it's a modified plot.

    Batman: Hush. Loeb gets a big check. Whereas he might not for Batman Begins or The Batman which are loose adaptations.

    I'm fuzzy on Damian and Jon honestly. They may count as derivative since Jonathan son of Superman is an Alan Moore/Curt Swan thing and Batman and Talia's son was a Chuck Dixon/Mike Barr thing. But Jurgens/Gleason and Morrison/Kubert transformed the concepts and mixed in Superboy and Robin elements to a point where it could be argued that NOBODY created the characters because they were a remix of too many creators' work for anyone to have a strong participation claim. The resulting characters are "derivative" even if they're remixes of characters with clear creators.

    It's again not about bleeding creators out. Creators are sometimes cut checks out of goodwill. But the way participation agreements were structured were not designed around 20 odd characters teaming up. And Levitz cut the checks out of the publishing division when he implemented them even though publishing doesn't necessarily get money in.

    Marvel has a lot more clout on this stuff because I don't think they have agreements like that. Which means they can and do sometimes blow a few grand or more on someone like Mantlo or Starlin for publicity but they aren't calculating a fifty bonus checks.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I still wonder why fans of superheroes in Japan never have these kinds of disputes even though they have 54 years worth of Ultramen, 49 years worth of Kamen Riders, and 45 years worth of sentai ("Power Rangers") teams.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Because they have no issue replacing someone and generally you see a beginning, middle and an end for those guys.

    Look at Sailor Moon. The 90s series veered from the manga big time. The live action was a little more faithful. The new series is following it.

    Even Robotech-excluding Southern Cross-Macross & New Generation actually had endings. Southern Cross got axed and lost about 5-6 episodes.



    Kinda disagree - Kids aren't against "kiddie" books. Dumbed down books yeah they hate, but books aimed at them no problem. And from what little I've heard, the new kids and YA lines seem to be doing good.
    If you can find it (since it's taken down on youtube) League of One about Dwayne McDuffie. It's on the Justice League Doom dvd.

    He pretty much said don't dumb down your work for anyone. Just write it.


    But the main books haven't been written for kids in 20 years.
    I work in the school system-if I told you some of the books I have seen on the shelves would shock you.

    Heroes in Crisis, Doomsday Clock & Identity Crisis is amateur hour to what I can toss out from a school library.

    Kids can handle way more than folks think they can.

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I still wonder why fans of superheroes in Japan never have these kinds of disputes even though they have 54 years worth of Ultramen, 49 years worth of Kamen Riders, and 45 years worth of sentai ("Power Rangers") teams.
    You even see it in the English fandom. Showa v Heisei/Reiwa or a dismissal of the more recent shows as nothing, but toyetic kid appeal prettyboys/bandai toy shills and a certain almost religious devotion to the first KR show (which honestly you don't see stateside all that much).

  8. #683
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    You even see it in the English fandom. Showa v Heisei/Reiwa or a dismissal of the more recent shows as nothing, but toyetic kid appeal prettyboys/bandai toy shills and a certain almost religious devotion to the first KR show (which honestly you don't see stateside all that much).
    They even made a Heisei vs Showa movie .

  9. #684
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I still wonder why fans of superheroes in Japan never have these kinds of disputes even though they have 54 years worth of Ultramen, 49 years worth of Kamen Riders, and 45 years worth of sentai ("Power Rangers") teams.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    The story of each Kamen Rider has a clear beginning and end, and they don't share roles. Each Kamen Rider are all different characters, different supporting cast, and fighting different villains. Each story is finished, the villains defeated, and the heroes survive. When a new one comes, it's a new story, new costume, new supporting cast, new villains.

    Sometimes they bring back older actors and characters to show that it's supposed to be one timeline, or they do a time travel crossover, but aside from that and the fact they're all set in Japan or under the brand of Kamen Rider, they don't have a lot of connection.

    Anyone can jump in at each new series' episode one, and leave when that series is done.

    They don't kill the previous Kamen Rider and make a younger one take over the mantle, and they don't bring them back after they died to take over the same mantle again. When a crossover happened, the old Kamen Riders don't stick around as a supporting cast to the new one. It's just a few episodes of fanservice, and then back to the vault.

  10. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Probably because those are live action series and each series only lasts so long till the next guy. They don't have literal decades of just that one guy being Ultraman.
    Correct. You could compare those shows most closely to Doctor Who.

  11. #686
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Because they have no issue replacing someone and generally you see a beginning, middle and an end for those guys.

    Look at Sailor Moon. The 90s series veered from the manga big time. The live action was a little more faithful. The new series is following it.

    Even Robotech-excluding Southern Cross-Macross & New Generation actually had endings. Southern Cross got axed and lost about 5-6 episodes.





    If you can find it (since it's taken down on youtube) League of One about Dwayne McDuffie. It's on the Justice League Doom dvd.

    He pretty much said don't dumb down your work for anyone. Just write it.




    I work in the school system-if I told you some of the books I have seen on the shelves would shock you.

    Heroes in Crisis, Doomsday Clock & Identity Crisis is amateur hour to what I can toss out from a school library.

    Kids can handle way more than folks think they can.
    1. I've got Justice League Doom, I've seen that vid on McDuffie, and damn if I don't wish he was still alive and working. DC needs more guys like him, shame he was one in a million.

    2. Won't get no argument from me, people always think stuff for kids is Dr. Seuss, but I remember reading some surprising stuff at that age. People underestimate what kids like or are ready for all the time. Especially when they hit that YA age.

    Never mind they had us read Grapes of Wrath in high school, and to this day that's the most messed up book I ever read.

  12. #687
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    1. I've got Justice League Doom, I've seen that vid on McDuffie, and damn if I don't wish he was still alive and working. DC needs more guys like him, shame he was one in a million.

    2. Won't get no argument from me, people always think stuff for kids is Dr. Seuss, but I remember reading some surprising stuff at that age. People underestimate what kids like or are ready for all the time. Especially when they hit that YA age.

    Never mind they had us read Grapes of Wrath in high school, and to this day that's the most messed up book I ever read.
    Animorphs comes to mind. At first glance, a fiction series about kids turning into animals. Going in deeper, its about a group of kids forced to become soldiers and to try and deter the seemingly inevitable conquest of their planet by mind controlling slugs that could be just about anyone. During it, they have victories, defeats, forced to make morally ambiguous decisions, gain friends, lose allies, and taste bitter betrayal.

  13. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    1. I've got Justice League Doom, I've seen that vid on McDuffie, and damn if I don't wish he was still alive and working. DC needs more guys like him, shame he was one in a million.

    2. Won't get no argument from me, people always think stuff for kids is Dr. Seuss, but I remember reading some surprising stuff at that age. People underestimate what kids like or are ready for all the time. Especially when they hit that YA age.

    Never mind they had us read Grapes of Wrath in high school, and to this day that's the most messed up book I ever read.
    Google Zane-how you like to see the creator of Cinemax's Zane Sex Chronicles with her books at a school. If a 12 year old can handle HER-DC has nothing to fear.

  14. #689
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    So apparently there are already plans in the works to undo some of Didio's edicts:

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...popular_mobile
    Assassinate Putin!

  15. #690
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    I just have no interest whatsoever in this Generation thing DC is doing. Nothing about it captivates me. Not the idea of new heroes replacing regular ones, or the idea of this all encompassing timeline. Obsessing over this is another DiDio-ism that should be tossed out, in my opinion, but yes, I understand it could have been too far along to can completely. But this tinkering nonstop with continuity isn't healthy for the DCU, in my opinion, and I personally don't find it makes for captivating reading.

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