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  1. #391
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    First they have to KNOW it exists.

    Second they have to KNOW where to buy it and hopefully it is in stock. Otherwise they are going to wait for the library to get it.

    You want the casual fan-put the products where they SHOP at. Barnes & Noble and comic book stores are not the answer.

    Using my city as the example-

    There are 3 Barnes & Nobles-NONE in the black community. NONE in the Latino Community.

    Meanwhile there are 20 Wal-marts in those communities.

    If you are trying to sell DC would doing it there make more sense? Yet I see Mine Craft, IDW, Lion Forge, Boom, Kaboom & Marvel there.
    I mean, I'm quite certain that people who watch Supergirl are aware that she's a comic book character and if they do happen to be interested in knowing more about her source material, they would find a way to do so. That doesn't really seem to be the case though.

  2. #392
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I'm pretty sure the Black Panther book doesn't have low sales because of entitled fans. The movie made huge bank and got a nomination for Best picture, so why is the book doing 15K? Where are those "casual fans" at? Not everything can be blamed on nostalgia, bigotry or fan entitlement.
    They're buying trades. Or reading at the local library. Or buying the digital versions. Or getting the stuff for cheap from used bookstores, eBay, other secondhand sources. Or they're borrowing from friends.

  3. #393
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dornwolf View Post
    The general audience has confused the upcoming Avengers game with being part of the MCU. There initial complaints were that the characters didn't look like the MCU versions. I don't put too much stock in general audience.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    What about Hikari? That's the Japanese word for light (which is why Mega Man's creator Dr Light is called Dr Hikari in MegaMan Battle Network).
    Sounds brilliant to me.

  5. #395
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    If Didio really did sabotage Nightwing and Wally he deserved to be fired for that alone. You don't leave money on the table based on your personal opinion. I'm sick and tired of editors and publishers using the official versions of characters for their own personal head canon. Same thing with Quesada and the Spider-marriage. This is a BUSINESS! Your job is to make money for the company. That means you suck it up even if you don't like something if the fans like it. Rebooting Superman wasn't done because Jeannette Kahn hated Superboy, it was a business decision done because it was believed that he would make more money if a lot of the SA elements that got attached to him over the years were jettisoned. And she was right. When he says he took this job just so he could bring back Barry and Hal, THAT'S NOT YOUR JOB! Your job is to manage the IPs you are given the best you can and make the best managerial decisions for those characters. Now, if he brought them back because he honestly believed it would be better for the IP, that would be different. But these aren't his toys to play with however he wants. If Nightwing is a popular character and makes money, you have to keep him. People don't want "Ric" Grayson or him as a spy.

    My personal belief is that Superman should have powers from day one. But if my opinion is in the minority, then they probably aren't going to do that. And I probably shouldn't be put in charge of the character if my view gets in the way of what is in the financial best interest of the character. I'm beginning to think that this whole "creators as publishers" thing is a bad idea because creators would rather create. This is why they need a multiverse. To let creators play in their own sandboxes on their off hours. Didio wants a universe without Nightwing? Great. Let him make his own and see how many agree with him.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    They're buying trades. Or reading at the local library. Or buying the digital versions. Or getting the stuff for cheap from used bookstores, eBay, other secondhand sources. Or they're borrowing from friends.
    I think you are over estimating how many people actually read comic books. We are a niche audience that is dwindling every year.

  7. #397
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    but wouldn't the question be, why aren't the comics drawing those casual fans in to buy the product? I mean most if not all of these "hardcore fans" are buying comics regardless, if only just to complain, but the industry is still dipping and dying because as the year goes by DC isn't producing more hardcore fans and the ones they already have are falling off, aging out, or dying off. so it would appear you do in fact need the casual fans and the wider media fans. there is clearly a reason there are more people who are willing to casually tune in or buy a ticket to see these same characters elsewhere. the problem is and always has been how to get more eyeballs, and you can't get new eyes with stories catered to consumers with sensibilities at odds with what the general public wants to see or with a business model that doesn't gel with how we consume pop culture/media now.
    Not sure about the last part given that Marvel in particular did anything in their power to cater to the "general public" and it did nothing for their monthly sales. Readership keeps decreasing whether they cater to "hardcore fans" or otherwise. Comics are always going to be for a niche audience, they will never be mainstream, but growth doesn't seem to increase regardless of how well-known some of the IPs tend to be worldwide or regardless of what business model publishers try to apply.
    Last edited by Johnny; 02-22-2020 at 06:34 PM.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    This.

    Another option is that they could have just started with Wally taking the mantel and had viewers learned what happened to Barry as the story progressed. I mean that is exactly how the FLASH picked up most of the franchises fan base to begin with.
    They wanted a show set in the Arrow universe, where super-powers were a new phenomenon. With Barry they could have him getting his powers, learning his powers, creating the Flash identity, meeting all the villains for the first time. Basically, they wanted to start from the beginning. Wally going from Kid Flash to Flash is a "next generation" story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But they're not practically the same character.
    Same name, same costume, same powers, same villains, same sex, same ethnicity.

    "The Flash" is the character.

    "Barry or Wally" is inside baseball. Only nerds like us know the difference.

  9. #399
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Comics are always going to be for a niche audience, they will never be mainstream,
    I hate to say "always" and "never" because those are such absolutes. I think it's possible to be mainstream again, though not likely in the forseeable future.

    IMO, as long as monthlies don't include entire stories, they aren't going to do well for a while. Not in the instant-gratification society, and not when it takes so very long to finish a story. Heck, I'm a comic fan, and I tend to wait and binge read. I'll do monthlies for a little while, but one storyline I don't like, and I'm off them for a year. Even ones I do like I prefer to read in one sitting. TPBs have more potential there, but that leads to more problems in monthlies because you get more issues that don't have stories or where nothing significant happens.

    Appealing to children in a good move, if they can manage it. They don't have the prejudices against the medium. But that would be a completely different type of story than you get today.

    Yes, broader audiences could look up the comics and find them in they wanted. But if you have to look them up, it's not casual or easy. I watched comic-book-based cartoons as a child - the idea of reading a comic never occurred to me. Never crossed my mind. My dad happen to see some X-Men comics in a gas station and knew we liked the cartoon so picked them up (we were on a road trip - didn't see them locally). As has been said, Wal-Mart is a good option. Right now, as far I know, that's only been OGNs and TPBs, though, not regular floppies. I understand why, but it's not all that likely to help the monthly market, especially if the stories are not in the same continuity.

    Also, people in the broader audience are very likely aware that the comic book versions are extremely different to the tv/movie/videogame versions - sometimes to the point of in-name-only resemblance - to the characters they enjoy watching on the screen. So why would they be interested in that very different version that likely lacks elements they love? Kids are more likely to overlook that, but not entirely. That's why they go to movie synchronicity - so people get something closer to what they expect. Might be helpful if those people actually picked them up, but they don't. Cartoons seems to have a more comic-booky vibe, usually.

  10. #400
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Not sure about the last part given that Marvel in particular did anything in their power to cater to the "general public" and it did nothing for their monthly sales. Readership keeps decreasing whether they cater to "hardcore fans" or otherwise. Comics are always going to be for a niche audience, they will never be mainstream, but growth doesn't seem to increase regardless of how well-known some of the IPs tend to be worldwide or regardless of what business model publishers try to apply.
    I just wanted to pop in and agree with you. I takes too much energy to argue things like this in perpetuity.
    I buy comics on my amazon kindle or play reader nowdays. Its not hard to do, but ...

    The idea that the "SENSIBILITIES" at odd with the general public seems pretty much a stretch. Manga seems to be doing fine and generally the Japanese sensibilities are still miles from the average US person.


    There was a kid in my family that I bought a "Kid Nova" tpb. I asked sometimes later why he didn't love it, but he reads manga and what was the difference. I kinda got the idea that he never even fully read it and I was right.

    What his answer was isn't important. What I think IS important is that people in western comic book divisions are trying to Isolate and get the "Manga" dollar instead of the "general audience" dollar.

    Reading periodicals is indeed a niche thing. The fact though that Kids Wanna Be Goku instead of Superman, or Naruto instead of whoever. . . those people are the future of BOOKS also.

    That being said... Its stupid to insult or ignore middle age people though. 30 and 40 year olds are going to be buying books for 30 more years. Tearing up that good will, just destroys things "NOW".

    Good will is important.

    The last 6 years of comics helped me break my comics addition. I'll try something new and interesting. I downloaded all 4 issues of "THE LAST GOD" just tonight... but I'm NOT spending 25+ dollars a week anymore.

    and here's the MOST important thing...

    Kids can't afford to do that.
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 02-22-2020 at 06:57 PM.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  11. #401
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They wanted a show set in the Arrow universe, where super-powers were a new phenomenon. With Barry they could have him getting his powers, learning his powers, creating the Flash identity, meeting all the villains for the first time. Basically, they wanted to start from the beginning. Wally going from Kid Flash to Flash is a "next generation" story.
    It's story telling about men and women with imaginary powers, in a universe that now currently has a multi-verse. If they wanted to work they could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Not sure about the last part given that Marvel in particular did anything in their power to cater to the "general public" and it did nothing for their monthly sales. Readership keeps decreasing whether they cater to "hardcore fans" or otherwise. Comics are always going to be for a niche audience, they will never be mainstream, but growth doesn't seem to increase regardless of how well-known some of the IPs tend to be worldwide or regardless of what business model publishers try to apply.
    Johnny you and everyone else engaging in this line of discourse are arguing the wrong things. It isn't a ME vs. YOU mentality that would have or can save DC. It's union.

    DC and MARVEL should have and still can grow their fanbase. You do it by telling compelling stories, providing proper marketing, and stiring continual interest in what is not only going on in your books but at your company. You add to that by respecting the fanbase that you already have and the FANBASE will be the ones to drive more people into your product.

    It's not rocket science. That method I just laid out is what brought the Big Two it's largest sales eras. It's what drives other mediums with similar niche's. DC's and Marvel's continual tiresome routine of alienating their costumer base either with their stories or their BEHAVIOR is the very reason why they are in the state that they are in.

    The easiest fix is to focus on what they have, build it up, make it fun, have them be more inviting, and the costumers will return.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 02-22-2020 at 07:07 PM.
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  12. #402
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    Regardless, I don't think ATT is going to ditch DC Comics, or their actual publishing arm. The reason is that they have literally thousands of IPs, and there's no way they can or should try to feature them all in other media....but they kind of have to keep publishing them or they will eventually lose the rights. Is it likely that they'll bother putting Arm Fall-Off Boy in any TV show or movie or game just to maintain his copyright? Maybe not the best example, I'll grant you, but comic book publishing does still serve the purpose of keeping copyright on characters they might not otherwise. Of course, nothing says they have to publish in paper, but I still don't see them going all digital immediately.

  13. #403
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    What about Hikari? That's the Japanese word for light (which is why Mega Man's creator Dr Light is called Dr Hikari in MegaMan Battle Network).
    That actually sounds pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Because general audiences matter.


    The reason why they tend to not bother with comics books is because what they LIKE is different from the entitled comic book fan. And in many cases what they like is NOT in a comic book.
    Yeah, I'm doubtful that's the reason. I think it's more likely that they have no desire to spend $3.99 a pop on 22 pages they can finish in 2-5 minutes and then wait a whole month to get another small snippet. WE'RE entrenched in this expensive, annoying and kind of stupid hobby, but we're an increasingly dwindling audience. They're smart to not even bother.

    Everyone knows comic books are a thing. They are an increasingly irrelevant form of entertainment that just cannot compete with films, tv series and video games. The bigoted assholes who shout online aren't moving the needle that much. They matter less than the fact than the model specifically for the Big 2 is broken and unappealing.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    If you are trying to sell DC would doing it there make more sense? Yet I see Mine Craft, IDW, Lion Forge, Boom, Kaboom & Marvel there.
    Selling DC at Wal-Mart would make sense (isn't that what they are doing?), but I do not see IDW, Lion Forge and Boom at any of the ones in New England. At least not the ones I've been in. But I've seen some of the DC 100 page books up by the Magic the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh cards
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 02-22-2020 at 07:21 PM.

  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    ...
    Appealing to children in a good move, if they can manage it. They don't have the prejudices against the medium. But that would be a completely different type of story than you get today.

    ...
    I agree.

    If PJ Masks can succeed, then a similar DC cartoon can do as well.

  15. #405
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Regardless, I don't think ATT is going to ditch DC Comics, or their actual publishing arm. The reason is that they have literally thousands of IPs, and there's no way they can or should try to feature them all in other media....but they kind of have to keep publishing them or they will eventually lose the rights.
    Now I'm thinking of Batman's list of villains in the Lego movie.

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