How do you rate Dan Didio's tenure at DC Comics?

[Tzigone]

Not necessarily. Cyborg's origin (his first one) doesn't require him to be a Titan.

It's kinda built-in. I mean, his father built Titans Tower for Vic, to help him heal. Part of their reconciliation before his death and so on. It matters to me. Titans gave Vic a place and a purpose. Moreso, though, what really, really matters to me is the friendship with Gar, which at least best works with them on a team together and not too terribly far apart in age. At least, if it's a friendship of their young years, as it was in the comics. Not to mention the bonds with the other Titans.

[iron chimp]

Also my words, which was right in the exact same quote you decided to ignore

But you decide to ignore that, which is also compounded by the ignorance of your statements seeing that

DnD A darkened wish, Batman and The Ousiders, the Lion Forge books and more are all POC writers. But hey, that doesn't fit the hysterical attempt of trying to make someone sound hypocritical just because their views doesn't match with yours.

As such, there's no point in indicating my point AGAIN, because you clearly aren't interested in it.

Youre the one choosing to read johns, glass and williamson at dc whilst ignoring a black woman at the sane company. Youre the one choosing to read old franchises at dc while ignoring all the new original work dc are putting out. So basically support black writers and new creations everywhere but DC ... interesting logic. Good luck with that.

[leo619]

Youre the one choosing to read johns, glass and williamson at dc whilst ignoring a black woman at the sane company. Youre the one choosing to read old franchises at dc while ignoring all the new original work dc are putting out. So basically support black writers and new creations everywhere but DC ... interesting logic. Good luck with that.

Oh you mean besides the fact that Batman and The Outsiders is written by a black man, which completely contradicts your point. But that wasn't my original point, my original point was that new readers are more accepting of new characters and are more willing to give it a try. Naomi? New Character, The New Teen Titans? Features New Characters, Shazam? Has the new shazam family, and that's just with DC, which I keep to a minimum purchasing as I rather support companies who are doing things more as a whole like Marvel and Lionforge than DC. But again, you're goal isn't to understand my point, your goal is nothing more than a fake gotcha moment, which only further serves my point.

[iron chimp]

Oh you mean besides the fact that Batman and The Outsiders is written by a black man, which completely contradicts your point. But that wasn't my original point, my original point was that new readers are more accepting of new characters and are more willing to give it a try. Naomi? New Character, The New Teen Titans? Features New Characters, Shazam? Has the new shazam family, and that's just with DC, which I keep to a minimum purchasing as I rather support companies who are doing things more as a whole like Marvel and Lionforge than DC. But again, you're goal isn't to understand my point, your goal is nothing more than a fake gotcha moment, which only further serves my point.

Ah yes batman and the outsider, that 1960s franchise still chugging along 60 years later.

Youre the one coming on here giving it licks how youre all about poc writers and new fiction but yet choose to ignore both new fiction and black writer doing new fiction at DC whilst 3/4s of yr DC pull list is white dudes and all yr pull list is 60 year old or more franchises.

But yes you make sure to keep that black woman off yr pull list at DC and give your money to good old Geoff and that 80 year old white character instead.

Oh do make sure to tell everyone how progressive you are and how you really support new work while you do it though. Thats just the icing on the cake.

[Agent Z]

Do you think Professor Xavier is required for Storm or Nightcrawler's origins?
Do their origins require them to be X-Men?

Wouldn't you say Raven's role in Cyborg's introduction in New Teen Titans was essentially the same as Professor Xavier's with those two?
She was the one that convinced him to become a hero and to join the Titans.
If not for her, he would've continued being depressed and likely either have killed himself or become a villain.

Back to the FF-
Thing/Human Torch = Cyborg/Changeling

We've seen other versions of Victor's story where he became a hero without Raven's influence. Hell, the Teen Titans cartoon ignored the part about Raven bringing them together.

Ah yes batman and the outsider, that 1960s franchise still chugging along 60 years later.

Youre the one coming on here giving it licks how youre all about poc writers and new fiction but yet choose to ignore both new fiction and black writer doing new fiction at DC whilst 3/4s of yr DC pull list is white dudes and all yr pull list is 60 year old or more franchises.

But yes you make sure to keep that black woman off yr pull list at DC and give your money to good old Geoff and that 80 year old white character instead.

Oh do make sure to tell everyone how progressive you are and how you really support new work while you do it though. Thats just the icing on the cake.

Three things:

1) Batman and the Outsiders was made in the 1980s not 1960s.

2) Batman and the Outsiders currently stars Duke Thomas a character created in the 2010s.

3) Reading this book (which is written by a black man) does not in anyway mean you don't support new characters and franchises. Seriously this such a weird take.

[skyvolt2000]

Yes... very perculiar that this cadre dont just go and buy something by another publisher that they might enjoy instead. Certainly makes one wonder....

How do you know that they are NOT?

Plenty new stuff out at DC.. ..

And no one is obligated to read those books.

Because we all have the right to read what we want. All Dc can do is put the product out there. Which is what they did.

New 52 started the foundation of bringing POC writers into the fold, and that is in fact true, as before New 52, there were no POC writers writing for DC.

Felicia Henderson Teen Titans-she was the FIRST black woman to write an ongoing at DC in 2006-2007.
Christopher Priest did Steel from 1997-2001
Fabian Nicieza was doing Azreal (Michael lane version) 2010-2011 and this book ended due to New 52 same as Xombi.
Dwayne McDuffie
Brian Selfreeze
Brandon Thomas
Alex Simmons
Robert Washington
Ivan Valdez (one of the few open LGBT writers at that time for DC)
Jacqueline Ching
Joseph Illidge
Larry Hama (Godfather of GI JOE)
Kevin Grevioux
George Perez
MD Bright
Nunzio DeFilippis
Ruben Diaz
Eric Wallace
Whilce Portacio (if you count Wildstorm)
Brandon Choi (see above)
Marc Bernardin
Selwyn seyfu hinds
Francis Manapul
Michael Green
While she was NOT a POC Maddie Blaustein was the first transgender writer at DC-writer of Static & Hardware.

Other wise all these POC worked for DC before New 52. So when New 52 arrived...

Eric Wallace who did Mr Terrific New 52 also did Titans where he killed Ryan Choi and has been hated ever since.
Fabian did some new 52 books as well
Marc Bernardin did New 52 Static Shock AFTER he did work at DC before New 52 on Lobo.
Perez tried to do Superman and left.
Francis Manapul did Flash

New folks-
Greg Pak
Gene Luen Yang

For the most part the three who worked on Batman, Flash & Superman related books (Fabian, Gene, Greg & Francis) had longer runs than the black guys.

Now before new 52 all those POC worked on the following-Justice League, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Lobo, Flash, Titans, Teen Titans, Steel, Milestone, Vertigo & Green Lantern related books. They also created or helped create Jason Rusch, Static, Orpheus, Michael Lane, Sasha Bordeaux and some guy named Cyborg. While defining Steel & Wonder Woman& Batman.

So how did New 52 benefit POC writers? When they were already there? I can take McDuffie off and not a book I listed gets removed. And that guy did a LOT at DC.

And don't get me started on artists of color. Jose Luis ********Lopez say hi. Stuff he did 40 years ago Dc still uses. George Perez? Deny Cowans?

So how did New 52 help POC when they were already doing stuff at DC?

[kilderkin]

Some things I absolutely hated

But on balance I liked DC much more than marvel for most of that period

I guess I liked more than I didn't, so fairs fair on that

[Lee Stone]

Long list

I'd add
Phil Jimenez - Wonder Woman

Also, would Ramona Fradon be a good example of a female artist from before New52?
She's best known as the artist for Aquaman and Super Friends in the '60s and '70s, respectively, and also co-created Metamorpho.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

LMAO, Sure there's hundreds of sites writing up about how horrible new 52 was. Give me a freaking break, talk about hyperbole.

Why don't you actually look it up and see for yourself...

Except no where did I state that the reboot was required in order for diverse writers to enter the fray, I stated New 52 started the foundation of bringing POC writers into the fold, and that is in fact true, as before New 52, there were no POC writers writing for DC.

But, again, the core of what the New 52 was, a reboot, was not necessary to bring in more diverse writers. That's the point. And it seemingly didn't even deliver on that promise because, unfortunately, there aren't many writers of color working at DC today and the ones that are aren't working on high-profile projects. The only writer of color I can think of who's had at least some high-profile projects at DC in the past few years has been Christopher Priest and he came back to DC with Rebirth.

I'm also gonna refer you to skyvolt2000's post.

Was a reboot required in order for new POC writers to come in? No. Was the reboot a bad idea, you say yes, I say no, and that won't change no matter how long we debate over it.

Except DC themselves have spent the last few years trying to write away the reboot and even went so far as to pin it on Dr. Manhattan. So, that would suggest that even DC admits rebooting was not a good idea.

I don't need to back up my evidence. You won't believe what I say rather I had links or not, even with the fact that your very own link from Nieson gave almost the exact same information as the content from Dwayne McDuffie stated. So if you don't believe it, that's on you. No skin off of my back if you don't believe it.

That data was from 2017, not 2010. And, again, it just seems you can't back it up.

LMAO, spoken like someone who has a faintest clue about diversity if you think the push of diversity from New 52 is worse than what's it's been in the 1960's. But than again, you seem to believe that being listed in stables or background characters constitute as diverse. Take that viewpoint to the Mary Sue and see how quick you'll get chumped.

Nice attempt at an ad hominem attack. It only shows that you cannot back up what you're saying, but whatever. Also, its "then" not "than." Anyway, speaking as an underrepresented minority myself, I might be actually have a clue about diversity.

Fact: DC Comics had a more diverse array of characters before Flashpoint than they did afterwards. Let's take a look at a few examples, shall we?

1. Kimiyo Hoshi aka Dr. Light, one of the few semi-prominent Asian superheroines in comics, went from well being a superheroine before Flashpoint to literally appearing in only one panel as the wife of Dr. Arthur Light, a white man who was the villainous Dr. Light. So, its funny that you cite "background characters" when she became a literal background character because of the New 52.

2. Anissa and Jennifer Pierce, the daughters of Black Lightning, both of whom were superheroes in their own right, with Anissa on the Outsiders and Jennifer on the JSA, were erased by Flashpoint. It's also notable that not only was Anissa an example of a strong black female character, but she was also in a same-sex relationship with Grace Choi, her biracial Amazon teammate on the Outsiders.

3. Stephanie Brown, the only female Robin, was erased by Flashpoint

4. Cassandra Cain, not only the only non-white Batgirl, but also the first Batgirl to headline her own solo series, was erased.

5. Renee Montoya, who had become the Question following the events of 52, had that wiped from her history and barely made any appearances in the New 52.

6. Bumblebee and Mal Duncan, who were classic members of the Titans, were wiped from existence.

There are more, to say the least. It was obvious to anyone with a working knowledge of the DC Universe from before Flashpoint that the New 52 was significantly less diverse in terms of racial, ethnic, and LGBTQ representation.

And that's not even touching on how the POC and LGBTQ characters that were around in the New 52 were so horribly mismanaged:

1. Wally West turned into a stereotype of a "street kid" who needs a white savior (Barry) to come along and show him how to be good.

2. Static's solo series faced a whole host of issues in the handling of his solo series to the point where the writer credited wasn't even the one writing the book

3. Mr. Terrific's series was just bad and didn't last beyond a few issues

4. Batwoman faced obstacles in her relationship with Maggie Sawyer because of the edict that "heroes can't get married because their lives can never be happy," which almost led to the creative team quitting the book.

And no, that's a load of hogwash. It's well known that new characters do not sell well and diverse characters did not sell well. That was why ANAD came into play as well as New 52, as well as the upcoming 5g. Hell DC tried to talk trash about what marvel did with ANAD by bringing out the dark matter books, and not a single one of them survive with top quality writers/artist place on books.

Did I not say in a previous post that new characters have a hard time attaining an audience unless tied to established characters? Also, the Dark Matter books weren't really recognized as high-quality runs. Now, looking at the likes of Kamala Khan and Miles Morales, you see the introduction of new characters in ways that successfully take advantage of established audiences. Even when Bendis introduced Naomi into the DCU, he chose to tie her heavily to Superman.

Oh Really? Because I can do the same

https://www.themarysue.com/dc-new-52-sales-good/

https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-dcs-new...ong-1756495268

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhug.../#621826915f73


And just like you, I can keep going. So again, what does that say? Just like anything, there were many of people who liked it, and there were many people who didn't like it. Some people like certain aspects of it while disliking other aspects of it. But overall, different people had different viewpoints on the era, And NOTHING you say is going to change that fact.

What's funny is that two of the articles that you provide seem hesitant to even give the New 52 its props. One of them literally also lists what the New 52 got wrong and the other one reads "DC New 52 Sales – So Far, So Good?" Its also literally from one month after the relaunch and the sales soon started to go down.

Um...Yes, One Piece a couple of years ago sold more than the freaking bible. He may not have as strong of as following in certain countries than others (the same with batman, in other countries), but One Piece is expected to surpass Harry Potter in sales in the next 5 years (Harry Potter is another example of brand new lore that became successful but that's a novel.) A one piece is just one example, let alone other well known anime series like Naruto, Dragon Ball Z, etc

So, is One Piece the franchise that has at least 8 blockbuster films to its name, some of which have pulled in billions at the box office and even gone on to win Academy Awards? Is Luffy the guy who is universally recognized around the globe? As I said, Batman has starred in films that have earned billions worldwide. The Dark Knight, DKR, and the Joker each earned over $1 billion on their own. The most that a One Piece film has earned at the box office is about $10 million if that. Batman has also had numerous TV shows and animated films to his name. One Piece has...one. I could ask my grandmother who Batman is and she'd be able to tell me. I doubt even my sister could tell me who Monkey D. Luffy is.

So, yeah, its no contest. Batman has a significantly more prominent cultural impact than One Piece. Anyone who says otherwise is just lying to themselves.

Um....because of bad writing? We already went over this. When walker was writing the book, it was successful. But just like DC, they switch out the writer with a new writer, and the book starts floundering. This isn't new news, this is a common case in many books coming from DC. They start off strong with a writer, switch them out with a different writer, and the book plunders. Earth 2 ran into this issue, JLO is running into this problem, etc. It's something DC should learn a long time ago that you don't mess with a formula but they don't seem to learn.

Between the first and the second issue of Walker's run on Cyborg, the book already lost about half its audience. And by its seventh issue, it had already sunk to below 19,000 copies a month. Obviously, not everyone was as jazzed about the run as you think they were. Again, I wonder why that is...

Sorry, but Cyborg is just one of those characters who does not work as a solo hero. He's a Titan, through and through.

[Agent Z]

Priest also wrote The Ray and Doselle Young wrote the 1999 Wonder Woman annual.

[manwhohaseverything]

We've seen other versions of Victor's story where he became a hero without Raven's influence. Hell, the Teen Titans cartoon ignored the part about Raven bringing them together.

If i remember correctly, teen titans cartoon didn't have an origin. Did it?

But that's the thing, DC will never have any other team be their premier team. Even during the time where the titans was more popular than the JLA, the Justice League was always considered the elite team that took on the biggest threats. They will be the first ones to get movies, toys, television shows and more. Hell, people talk about how New 52 removed all of the history, and yet even with the new reboot foundation, JLA was at it's core. Now could DC decides to completely change this process and make another team their A team that gets firsts on everything? Possible, but highly unlikely.


With that said, we'll have to agree to disagree in regards Cyborg not adding anything to the Justice League. The face that you have a POC as a member of the big seven already represents a huge addiction to the franchise. That may not matter to some, but to those that values diversity, that's a huge deal. Combine that with the space like potential that was given by him having a Mother Box, and there was amazing amount of untapped potential to explore. Of course it was a different take, that's for certain, no one is denying that. But JLO was a good indicator of what Cyborg being elevated would really look like and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Though this was primarily at thne beginning, as mention Dan Abnett came by and once again ruined it but that's another story.

They were elite in universe because
a) the titans were teens or in transition to be thier own.
b) jla was made of the best individual popular characters.
Neither of the two are correct now. Titans are grown up. They have become equals or some have even surpassed their mentors without becoming the paragons their mentors are. So, cyborg would be in better company with a competent titans than the JLA.
Jsa was dc's priemere one,Once upon a time. So never say never. Justice league never got movies nor tv shows. As far as i am aware. The one they got in modern times didn't turn out well. They got animated series,but so did titans. Titans have more number of successful shows than the league. New52 reboot was done specifically for the silverage guys and making those characters relevant. Ofcourse, the titans will who couldn't be reverted to their sidekick roles would be erased. But, still look how that turned out. Their paragons are incomplete without the titans. Clark, barry, diana, bruce, hal.. Etc can represent ideals. They can play the saints of truth, justice, will, hope.. Etc. But, they aren't the heart of dc. These guys aren't what makes dcu relatable. It will always be the titans. That's why these characters were conceived. Dick grayson exist because batman needed the character.

Black lightning can be a paragon like character amongst the silverage jl, the poc addition. I would have gone for mr. Terrific. But, then the problem arises with batman being there. Cyborg being a paragon is a phenomenonal downgrade to the character. He isn't hephaestus. hephaestus himself wasn't part machine. That imagery falls flat on its face. Cyborg needs teams that aren't paragons.The space and motherbox orgins even if added would not bind cyborg much to jl thematically.It will only bind him to new gods. Then agiain really doesn't matter, The teams relationships aren't meant to be that personal. But then problem is, vic's struggle are supposed to be. He needs people to connect to. He struggles are to find family, friends and to open up more.Justice league isn't a team of friend or family. It's a team of duty bound saints and paragon. The opposite of cyborgs very essence and character. Motherbox storyline works far better with cyborg being in a team that doesn't have play god like the titans. Young justice show did it.You mention jlo.who are his team mates in that? Starfire, jessica cruz.. Etc that book and cyborg works because he isn't stuck with "truth, justice and you know the drill".

Even manhunter in the jl animated series when confronted with the same fact had to be written out. Martian manhunter leaves justice league in the end. He tried to make justice league into his family. But, he fails and leaves to earth because he realises that he himself was becoming detached. Even with clark creating hall of justice on earth. It doesn't make the team itself a team. It makes the team connect to the people. And that was a team with wally west whose biggest conflict was that he was the little brother of the team, the misfit and that he couldn't be a paragon. He made the team personnel . If wally died, jl goes berserk. Clark's entire arc with wally was about that. He could not be detached nor personal.

Cyborg being stuck with a team of paragons like such, just doesn't do good for the character.

[L.H.]

If i remember correctly, teen titans cartoon didn't have an origin. Did it?

There is episode 10, season 5, "Go!". Starfire arrives on Earth, running away from Gordonians, and met this 4 young heroes. Basically, they become a team fighting against the Gordonians. At the end, Robin and Cyborg gave them a number, and says: "When there's trouble you know who to call".
This was supposed to be the first episode, a pilot to the whole serie.

I know everybody hates Teen Titans Go!, but I liked how they handed Cyborg history: he started with the TT, but his true dream was being part of the JL. In an episode, it's shown that he will be in the JL in the future. I don't get why this can't be true in the comics.

[manwhohaseverything]

There is episode 10, season 5, "Go!". Starfire arrives on Earth, running away from Gordonians, and met this 4 young heroes. Basically, they become a team fighting against the Gordonians. At the end, Robin and Cyborg gave them a number, and says: "When there's trouble you know who to call".
This was supposed to be the first episode, a pilot to the whole serie.

I know everybody hates Teen Titans Go!, but I liked how they handed Cyborg history: he started with the TT, but his true dream was being part of the JL. In an episode, it's shown that he will be in the JL in the future. I don't get why this can't be true in the comics.

Right, i don't quiet remember. I haven't watched it in ages. As for, him becoming jl member. It depends on the team. Otherwise, if jl atleast has someone like kyle or booster gold or plastic man even then it can work.Otherwise, i don't think so. With just the silverage guys , Cyborg just becomes a stick in the mud or worse uber angsty without any nuances. It's always a downgrade. The character becomes no fun, no depth, no nothing.

[iron chimp]

We've seen other versions of Victor's story where he became a hero without Raven's influence. Hell, the Teen Titans cartoon ignored the part about Raven bringing them together.



Three things:

1) Batman and the Outsiders was made in the 1980s not 1960s.

2) Batman and the Outsiders currently stars Duke Thomas a character created in the 2010s.

3) Reading this book (which is written by a black man) does not in anyway mean you don't support new characters and franchises. Seriously this such a weird take.

1. Sorry 40 year old franchise - quite right
2. A new character you say.. because books never had new characters before 'new readers' started reading books.
3. That pull.list at DC means you arent supporting new work at DC. Coming on telling dc readers they are this or that whilst you are all about new works and poc writers and then not supporting any of the 8 or more brand new works they got or their female black writer. Indeed all very weird

I dont know what you think older comic readers were buying in 80s in comics shops but they arent the problem. Comic shop was way tougher, more diverse, and experimental than the meek shitshow it is now where a new character in a 40 year old franchise is 'new'. If thats 'new readers' definition of new and progressive then they are the problem because thats beyond limited thinking compared to what older comics heads were buying.

[iron chimp]

How do you know that they are NOT?



And no one is obligated to read those books.

Because we all have the right to read what we want. All Dc can do is put the product out there. Which is what they

Yes exactly. Read what you want. But this 'classic comic reader' vs 'new comic reader' stuff is hokey as hell. Dc had 5 quality looking books out recently written by black writers or starring black characters and they have at least 7 new original works on their rosta. Its not the law to buy them but its pretty weak to say this is what youre all about and not even try an issue and then come on here telling other people they are the problem.

If you dont want to support new work or black writers at DC then dont. Thats up to you.