How do you rate Dan Didio's tenure at DC Comics?

[Rod G]

I want to read a DC Universe where all the stories count and where the legacy matters. So yes, I would like Luthor's time as President to count, just as I want all stories to count. Something Dan Didio apparently didn't want.

All except post Flashpoint you mean.

[manwhohaseverything]

I want to read a DC Universe where all the stories count and where the legacy matters. So yes, I would like Luthor's time as President to count, just as I want all stories to count. Something Dan Didio apparently didn't want.

Even the stories where lois became a witch or when jimmy became a giant monster Or the times when clark used to run from the police, throw people through the walls, cling on walls, run on electric lines and smash cars when he got pissed of. Stories where clark was an actual strongman, an actual alien and an actual vigilante,instead of a normal guy with sun powers. Do you really want all of that back?

Dan Didio’s tenure at DC and whether or not it was any good.

I’m sorry that it got derailed.

It's alright. He had many great ideas. I would love to see morrison's origin kept, i don't want secret origins back. Even birthright would do as a superman fan.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

All except post Flashpoint you mean.

Oh, I want some New 52 stories to count. Just none of the ones that were inconsistent with Pre-Flashpoint. That doesn't leave much left.

Even the stories where lois became a witch or when jimmy became a giant monster Or the times when clark used to run from the police, throw people through the walls, cling on walls, run on electric lines and smash cars when he got pissed of. Stories where clark was an actual strongman, an actual alien and an actual vigilante,instead of a normal guy with sun powers. Do you really want all of that back?

Oh yeah. It doesn't mean I want to portray Clark as OOC, though.

[Gurz]

I voted D but seriouly considered voting F 'cause of Identity Crisis.

[Rod G]

I voted D but seriouly considered voting F 'cause of Identity Crisis.

Can’t say I cared much for Identity Crisis myself.

Don’t get me started on INFINITE​ Crisis.

Then again, Justice was a gem.

[manwhohaseverything]

Oh, I want some post-Flashpoint ones to count. Just none of the ones that were inconsistent with Pre-Flashpoint and not the ones that were awful. That doesn't leave much left.



Oh yeah. It doesn't mean I want to portray Clark as OOC, though.

Define ooc. If you mean clark goes back to being the man of action, the outlaw, the guy that saves the day with a smile and not with a lecture of little depth, Then maybe. Postcrisis guy is a saint touted as human with no human weaknesses.He has no ambiguities. The story of superman is about fear vs empathy. If there is no fear, the story is incomplete. A wolf without fangs.
I want this guy
Doing this
And this
Even this
Being treated like this

[Gurz]

Can’t say I cared much for Identity Crisis myself.

Don’t get me started on INFINITE​ Crisis.

Then again, Justice was a gem.

I liked Infinite Crisis, especially the side story villains united. It was good overall, if you ask me. But the peice of crap, that's Identity Crisis was so depressing... OMG... my whole day ruined after reading that garbage, i was all depresed, sulking at the garden of my family's summer hause... :/ it was terrible, i felt horrible... damn that event.

[Dataweaver]

It was better than Heroes in Crisis.

[Gurz]

It was better than Heroes in Crisis.

Another reason to give F to Didio... :/ I didn't read that though, it was so obvious they were setting wally as the killer, i coundn't believe it... I was like the killer was wally jokingly 'cause that was so obvious, i kind of thought he wasn't the killer... I couldn't believe they would go the extra mile of retarded and make wally the murderer...

[leo619]

So you're admitting the New 52 wasn't necessary. Cool. I'll consider the point conceded.

I've never stated New 52 was necessary. So you can consider your point "conceded" all you wish but it doesn't make it true. I routinely stated the New 52 had great ideas but bad execution, you stated they were bad ideas, and then attempted once again push the goal post to saying that it wasn't necessary which I never denied.

Except, again, you have not established at all that the people who were not on board with Milestone joining the DCU and the people who hated the New 52 were the same group of "classic fans." You are simply making an assumption based on your preconceived idea of "classic fans," which is ridiculous. I can assure you, there are plenty of people who love Milestone and hated the New 52.

Except, again, I never stated that the folks who hate new 52 are the exact same group of fans that hated Milestone. I specifically stated that classic fans clearly had a problem with Milestone, which they did. So you can assume it's ridiculous all you want, Dwayne McDuffie already called them out so I already know who I'm believing.

Lol. You don't have to trust us, but what we're saying is true. You just don't want to admit it. And putting preconditions like this on skyvolt's list is an example of someone actually moving the goalposts. Sorry to have to break it to you, but the New 52 did erase more characters of color than it created. That includes supporting characters who were massively important like Linda Park and her and Wally's biracial children, Jai and Irey (characters skyvolt actually forgot to include) as well as heroes like Cassandra Cain, Natasha Irons, Connor Hawke, etc. And no, a lot of these characters actually weren't in limbo when the New 52 happened. And let's not even get into how it also erased a lot of the LGBTQ characters in the DC Universe...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Didio used the New 52 to bring the DC Universe back to the state it was in back in 1980 all while saying he wanted to promote diversity.

And, for the twentieth time, those titles that you keep bringing up either didn't last long or were just bad or were both bad and didn't last long. And now those characters actually are in limbo themselves. So, even if we say that the New 52 tried to advance diversity (which again, can't be said when it erased more diversity than it created), we can't really say it did it well. Marvel, on the other hand, was able to introduce diverse characters that have since taken off like Kamala Khan and Miles Morales and they did so without rebooting their universe and alienating fans.[/quote]

You can believe it's true all you want, doesn't make it so. In the end of the day, you guys believe diversity is characters just existing but being wallpaper that hasn't seen the light of day in months or years, or straight in limbo. while my definition of diversity is POC Solo Series, and what you're actually doing with the characters.

And for the twentieth time, I have already stated that many of these series "executions" was flawed, which once again was never debated. But it doesn't change the fact that they push good ideas such as the advancement of diversity. And Marvel receive the same level of backlash, to the point to where the ultimate forums had to almost be shut down as folks all over the place originally started to trash Miles Morales when he first made his introduction. The same situation happened with Mighty Thor and ANAD, no different than New 52. The only difference between the two, was the execution. Marvel stuck the landing when it came to the quality of the books, even after all of the classic fans kept trying to trash it, while DC crash and burn.

Now you are literally putting words in my mouth. Where did I ever say the phrase "you're not a real DC fan if you like the New 52"?? Answer: I didn't. What I have said is that the New 52 had a lot of problems and was an example of bad leadership and I stand by that. That's my opinion. But if you are starting to feel guilty about what you like, that's on you, not me. Don't give me credit for that. Take credit for your own opinions and your own feelings.

You're the one who said that it was a bad time to be a DC fan, which clearly means if you're a New 52 fan you don't count as a DC fan. Those were your words, not mine. So yes, you did, you can keep trying to pretend like you weren't trying to make people feel wrong for enjoying New 52 but the examples are there in this thread for all to see and read.

It did last only a few months. Again, it ended in 2016, had to be relaunched with Rebirth, and then still did poorly in sales. By issue 8 of the relaunched series, it was back to selling below 20k copies a month. That is not a successful series

It did not last a few months, the first volume last a full year and transitioned under the Rebirth logo JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SERIES IN DC, and then continued forward with it's new relaunch series. The point still stands that the cyborg series lasted 3 years, that is a successful series.

[Elmo]

Hated Infinite Crisis but without it we wouldn't have had 52, and some of the great stories in the One Year Later lineup.

Hated everything about New 52 but books like Animal Man and Geoff Johns' Aquaman had me really excited to be a DC fan

With all the trash books we were getting Didio's era gave way to Grant Morrison's best years at DC. I still hold onto the claim that Final Crisis is an absolute gem, and Seven Soldiers and the Multiversity were beautifully crafted books, unforgettable.\

Everything going on in Green Lantern was stellar in my opinion. I wasn't super into Blackest Night though.


But we still had stuff like Convergence (despite some great tie-in issues) , Futures End, Forever Evil, Before Watchmen, the shuttering of Vertigo, the constant neutering and misdirection of Dick Grayson, the weird protection of Eddie Berganza.

The guy liked to take risks and we got some pretty cool stuff out of it, but was it worth it? So much of his time was spent overhauling and making massive corrections to mistakes he was responsible for. I was behind Rebirth but a fan should not be able to stand for so many constant rebrandings and reboots in one decade alone, Didio was a horrible publisher for this reason in particular and many more.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I've never stated New 52 was necessary. So you can consider your point "conceded" all you wish but it doesn't make it true. I routinely stated the New 52 had great ideas but bad execution, you stated they were bad ideas, and then attempted once again push the goal post to saying that it wasn't necessary which I never denied.

Good. We can finally agree on that.

Except, again, I never stated that the folks who hate new 52 are the exact same group of fans that hated Milestone. I specifically stated that classic fans clearly had a problem with Milestone, which they did. So you can assume it's ridiculous all you want, Dwayne McDuffie already called them out so I already know who I'm believing.

You keep painting people with the same brush of "classic fan" as a way to discredit them and/or not take their opinions seriously instead of just admitting that, sometimes, DC has bad ideas. And you're using an instance that, for the most part, was pretty unrelated to try and insinuate that people who were opposed to the New 52 were prejudiced or unwelcoming of minorities. Again, I can assure you that many Milestone fans hated the New 52 for what it did to Milestone characters, specifically Static.

You can believe it's true all you want, doesn't make it so. In the end of the day, you guys believe diversity is characters just existing but being wallpaper that hasn't seen the light of day in months or years, or straight in limbo. while my definition of diversity is POC Solo Series, and what you're actually doing with the characters.

LOL. The proof is in the pudding. There were more diverse characters before the New 52 than there were after. That's a fact. You can try and dance around that all you want, but it isn't going to automatically make your point true. Also, you keep saying these characters were in limbo. They weren't. They were around. We saw them and read about them and then after the New 52, they were gone all of a sudden.

And our definition of diversity is not taking the most prominent character with a disability and forcing her back into being Batgirl because that was the "classic status quo" Dan Didio grew up with. Our definition of diversity is not erasing the only Asian Batgirl to ever exist or the only female Robin.

And again, how long did those solo series last? How well were they managed? Did Marc Bernardin not have to quit Static because of all the editorial mismanagement? Are Voodoo, Mr. Terrific, and Jaime Reyes still headlining their own solo series? And I bought every issue of Jaime's New 52 series. But guess what...his Pre-Flashpoint solo series was much better (and is remembered as such) and lasted longer.

Also, I've brought up examples of POC titles that existed before Flashpoint, which you then dismissed because they were "ensemble books." Talk about moving goalposts...

And for the twentieth time, I have already stated that many of these series "executions" was flawed, which once again was never debated. But it doesn't change the fact that they push good ideas such as the advancement of diversity. And Marvel receive the same level of backlash, to the point to where the ultimate forums had to almost be shut down as folks all over the place originally started to trash Miles Morales when he first made his introduction.

But the New 52 completely bungled it, is the point, and there’s a difference between the intention or goal (promoting diversity) and the ideas utilized to promote it (i.e. rebooting and/or erasing characters). The reboot made a mess of everything. When you erase your entire universe, that tends to happen. It also, again, erased more characters of diversity than it created. Therefore, it was a pretty bad idea that, in the end, failed to achieve the desired goal of a more diverse DCU. If they were really interested in creating diversity, they could have, I dunno, launched solo series for Cassandra Cain or Connor Hawke or Icon. You know, established characters that people actually liked. However, they decided to either completely erase those characters or downplay them to the point of irrelevance. They also decided it would be better to turn Wally West into a stereotype to act as a prop in Barry Allen's white savior story. Tell me more about how that was a good move...

And Marvel did not receive the same backlash. Know how I know? Because Marvel didn't have to retcon Miles into being a completely separate character from the one he was introduced to be. Also, Miles is now a huge success. Can we say the same for NuWally?

The same situation happened with Mighty Thor and ANAD, no different than New 52. The only difference between the two, was the execution. Marvel stuck the landing when it came to the quality of the books, even after all of the classic fans kept trying to trash it, while DC crash and burn.

Yeah, they did stick the landing in terms of quality. They also had the bright idea to not reboot their universe and flush 80 years of history, legacy, and continuity down the drain. That was the main issue. And, on top of that, they still were able to bring in more new readers than DC did.

You're the one who said that it was a bad time to be a DC fan, which clearly means if you're a New 52 fan you don't count as a DC fan. Those were your words, not mine. So yes, you did, you can keep trying to pretend like you weren't trying to make people feel wrong for enjoying New 52 but the examples are there in this thread for all to see and read.

It was a hard time to be a DC fan. The confusing timeline, the constant stories of editorial mismanagement, the behind-the-scenes clashes, writers being fired and then rehired and fired again, writers being announced on books and then quickly pulled off of those books before their very first issues had dropped, etc. That is a bad time to be a fan, whether you started with the New 52 or had been reading DC for 50 years.

It did not last a few months, the first volume last a full year and transitioned under the Rebirth logo JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SERIES IN DC, and then continued forward with it's new relaunch series. The point still stands that the cyborg series lasted 3 years, that is a successful series.

Lol. Okay, that series itself lasted a year. But only a year. And then, with the relaunch (with a new writer, by the way), it still performed badly in sales. How many times does that need to be explained to you? If a series is selling 18k or 15k or less a month, that's not a successful series. That's a series that's barely breaking even.

[Menacer]

Zeeguy91...

Has there ever been a time where comic storylines weren't confusing? Where continuity and canon weren't fucked up... where books weren't being cancelled?

Jack kirby's famous 1970s run was dropped fast...

The golden age, silver age were story mishmash nightmares... so much so it inspired Crisis On Infinite Earths... and since they've continued to try to reset things every 5 years or so... largely cause hardcore fans are so foolishly ardent that everything must line up exactly...


Ever noticed that even In a 2 hour movie with one script writer plot holes and story problems appear...

Even 1 story. 1 writer developed over 7 years can have plot holes and continuity problems or continuity problems while shooting or editing...

Its ridiculous to believe dozens of writers working over years and releasing monthly's could keep things "right"

Honestly over 80 years if continuity is why you read these books your going to have a bad time.

I for one loved new 52 and enjoyed stories from as far back as Kirby's day...

Just read the stories and enjoy yourself and stop over thinking these fun essentials children stories

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Zeeguy91...

Has there ever been a time where comic storylines weren't confusing? Where continuity and canon weren't fucked up... where books weren't being cancelled?

Jack kirby's famous 1970s run was dropped fast...

The golden age, silver age were story mishmash nightmares... so much so it inspired Crisis On Infinite Earths... and since they've continued to try to reset things every 5 years or so... largely cause hardcore fans are so foolishly ardent that everything must line up exactly...


Ever noticed that even In a 2 hour movie with one script writer plot holes and story problems appear...

Even 1 story. 1 writer developed over 7 years can have plot holes and continuity problems or continuity problems while shooting or editing...

Its ridiculous to believe dozens of writers working over years and releasing monthly's could keep things "right"

Honestly over 80 years if continuity is why you read these books your going to have a bad time.

I for one loved new 52 and enjoyed stories from as far back as Kirby's day...

Just read the stories and enjoy yourself and stop over thinking these fun essentials children stories

Dude, that is such a false point. Were there mess-ups in DC's past? Yeah. That doesn't make the New 52's mismanagement any more excusable. The New 52 also experienced said mismanagement with such regularity and public backlash that, yeah, I would say it was unprecedented.

And to answer your question, I would say that the 80s and 90s were much better times to be a DC fan. The fact that I can still enjoy stories of the Legion of Superheroes or the New Teen Titans from that era, yet can't get through an issue of New 52 Teen Titans or the New 52 Legion speaks volumes...

Also, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with enjoying superhero stories because there’s a rich mythology laid out over decades. That’s a big part of the enjoyment of superheroes.

[Menacer]

Dude, that is such a false point. Were there mess-ups in DC's past? Yeah. That doesn't make the New 52's mismanagement any more excusable. The New 52 also experienced said mismanagement with such regularity and public backlash that, yeah, I would say it was unprecedented.

And to answer your question, I would say that the 80s and 90s were much better times to be a DC fan. The fact that I can still enjoy stories of the Legion of Superheroes or the New Teen Titans from that era, yet can't get through an issue of New 52 Teen Titans or the New 52 Legion speaks volumes...

Also, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with enjoying superhero stories because there’s a rich mythology laid out over decades. That’s a big part of the enjoyment of superheroes.

Fair enough...

I've read plenty of issues from the 90s that are totally unreadable... bad art, blah story... all eras have them...

I equate the new 52 backlash to hysterics more then anything.

I own all 70ish issues related to blue red superman story arc. I love it. Yet it's often sighted as stupid or a colossal mistake... little of it is collected in trades ... to me it's an amazing story in supermans history yet it was attacked from day one... from whiny fans...

Flashpoint, new 52, and the eventual rebirth is awesome.

Every book?? No...

But your bs'ing yourself if u think all the books from 90s are great. Loads of poor art and pointless plots exist in all eras

52 was just so clearly branded for 4ish years ... it's so easy to lump it all as bad because of it...

As far as was it successful? It came with a jump and then a quick drop over 4 years... but avengers was released in 2011.. my guess us fans saw it, new readers flocked to marvel and likely some dc readers switched over at this time... the press was good for marvel and the press for new 52 was bad...

Fact is there are amazing stories in new 52.

It went on branded for 4 years before rebirth. Rebirth helped bring numbers back up. But never over the peak of 52...

The big deep is pretty close to age of ultrons release...

Again more readers of dc likely switching over to marvel...

52 had problems like all eras but the hard core fans do a huge disservice by killing the brand with over negativity...

Marvel on the other hand has momentum from films and people focusing on the positive.