How do you rate Dan Didio's tenure at DC Comics?

[leo619]

A lot of people liked it. But that doesn't fit the narrative of provable objective failure from the jump. But since that's untrue, understandably falsehoods have to be weaved in there.

The reality is it wasn't an objectively bad idea in the least. It was objectively poorly planned and implemented. And even then, for the first few years it was strong. Took a little while for the poor planning--compounded with the their inability to commit to a full reboot, creating inconsistencies where there could have easily been none-- and their usual event overload, to infect the overall line.

Exactly! It's mind boggling how people who have a vested dislike towards something has to pretend that their mentality is the only mentality. It's like folks can't understand that people like different things. And I noticed it's primarily from a certain demographic. You almost never see a new 52 or 5g fan go up to a rebirth fan and say "You're wrong or this was a bad idea." It's asinine really.

[skyvolt2000]

A lot of people liked it. But that doesn't fit the narrative of provable objective failure from the jump. But since that's untrue, understandably falsehoods have to be weaved in there.

The reality is it wasn't an objectively bad idea in the least. It was objectively poorly planned and implemented. And even then, for the first few years it was strong. Took a little while for the poor planning--compounded with the their inability to commit to a full reboot, creating inconsistencies where there could have easily been none-- and their usual event overload, to infect the overall line.

Exactly.

Half the fan base liked it.

Correct. However the early mistakes eventually came back to haunt DC.

Well, to anyone really. I don't remember hearing anyone say "ya gotta check out what Walker's doing on Cyborg" or "this is a definitive run for the character." And again, that's not a knock on Walker, but it just shows that there wasn't enough interest being generated because, again, there was no lore to attract many readers to the title.

Walker never got the chance as he left the book due to the editor-who chased off Static's writer in 2011. Now there are folks who have praised him for what little he got to do.

No, Marvel capitalize on the ideas that New 52 had, and executed the ideas at a much better rate than DC did.

What evidence do you have to back that up?

Miles Morales and Ms Marvel started at the same time as New 52. Squirrel Girl was already around as was Sam Alexander and X-23.

What did Marvel steal??? Unlike DC with Cyborg-Marvel invested in Carol Danvers (no matter how many times her book restarted). When Marvel chose to invest in someone they DID.

Even when ordered to toss the X-Men-Marvel kept them around and still put them in books unlike MANY of the victims of new 52.

It's 9 years later-where are the POC lead solos at? Where is Voodoo? Jason Rusch? Static? Blue Beetle? Bunker? Alfred's daughter? Simon Baz?

Ms Marvel's FIRST volume is still a top seller on Amazon-none of the POC lead New 52 books are even in the top 100,000,000.

Miles Morales stayed in his book for 4 years before joining 3 teams and headlining 3 minis and having a decent role in a events.

What POC at Dc can boast that? NONE.

If Marvel did learn anything from DC is this-if you invest in someone you better back it up. If Cyborg is your A lister treat him like one to the point no one bothers to mention Teen Titans.

Titan Cyborg has more than JLA Cyborg. Folks are going to gravitate to Titans because Cyborg did stuff there.

I forget Nightwing was Robin because we have over 200 solo stories and team books showcasing him. Call me Cyborg get that under JLA banner.

[Lee Stone]

Denying Cyborg from being a Titan is like denying the Thing from ever being an FF member.

[leo619]

Exactly.



Correct. However the early mistakes eventually came back to haunt DC.



Walker never got the chance as he left the book due to the editor-who chased off Static's writer in 2011. Now there are folks who have praised him for what little he got to do.



What evidence do you have to back that up?

Miles Morales and Ms Marvel started at the same time as New 52. Squirrel Girl was already around as was Sam Alexander and X-23.

What did Marvel steal??? Unlike DC with Cyborg-Marvel invested in Carol Danvers (no matter how many times her book restarted). When Marvel chose to invest in someone they DID.

Even when ordered to toss the X-Men-Marvel kept them around and still put them in books unlike MANY of the victims of new 52.

It's 9 years later-where are the POC lead solos at? Where is Voodoo? Jason Rusch? Static? Blue Beetle? Bunker? Alfred's daughter? Simon Baz?

Ms Marvel's FIRST volume is still a top seller on Amazon-none of the POC lead New 52 books are even in the top 100,000,000.

Miles Morales stayed in his book for 4 years before joining 3 teams and headlining 3 minis and having a decent role in a events.

What POC at Dc can boast that? NONE.

If Marvel did learn anything from DC is this-if you invest in someone you better back it up. If Cyborg is your A lister treat him like one to the point no one bothers to mention Teen Titans.

Titan Cyborg has more than JLA Cyborg. Folks are going to gravitate to Titans because Cyborg did stuff there.

I forget Nightwing was Robin because we have over 200 solo stories and team books showcasing him. Call me Cyborg get that under JLA banner.

I never said Marvel stole anything. I'm not sure where you got that idea from, I said that Marvel learned from DC's mistakes, which was exactly what you stated.

If Marvel did learn anything from DC is this-if you invest in someone you better back it up. If Cyborg is your A lister treat him like one to the point no one bothers to mention Teen Titans.

THAT is what Marvel did that DC did not. But there's a big difference, if you notice the successes perform by marvel was done by people who were passionate about the characters they were writing. Bendis was passionate about Miles Morales, Aaron's was passionate about Mighty Thor, etc. On the other hand, Geoff Johns said that no one could write Cyborg because he wanted to do his series, and decided not to do it. Now as you stated, Walker had passion, but was constantly hijacked by editorial, which was a very common theme in New 52. There was very little unison, just look at what happened with John Rozum in Static Shock.

So that's what Marvel learned, they knew DC had some right ideas in regards to New 52, but was marred with horrible implementation or lack of effort/commitment by a member in the creative team.

[manwhohaseverything]

You clearly aren't reading my post, as no where did I indicate that new 52 was heaven for diversity. Here's a clear quote of my original statement.



Secondly, Cyborg's "titan's history and relationships" is not a diverse characteristic, that's a classic fan viewpoint. Cyborg's titan history and relationship has absolutely nothing to do with the type push and treatment he could have receive as a founding member of a big 7, (which for many of those that valued diversity, saw this change as a big plus originally) You go the cyborg appreciation thread, and you'll see those that valued his change to the big 7 were looking for key dynamics that was sadly not executed in new 52 (stop with the man vs machine stories, treat him like a valued member of the big 7 versus getting ripped up every 5 issues, explore different dynamics of Cyborg, etc) So Cyborg's execution was definitely lacking outside of a few select writers doing him justice, but that has nothing to do history.


Secondly, Wally changes happen WAY before the original came back. DC heard the backlash of writing him stereotypically and we started seeing progression from around issue 50, a good time before he became Kid Flash and WAY before the original came up. If you found him forgettable, that's your dynamic, but you don't get to speak for those that actually enjoy the characters or enjoy the potential changes New 52 brought.

You said character being a founding league member instead of titans member makes it better push for diversity. How? The character is just swapping one team for another that too not for the sake of the character but to add to the team. The team gets the benefit if any,not cyborg. If Cyborg gets any benefits then it's a good push for diversity, otherwise not. And If You are implying titans are some second rate team that no valuable character should be on or something that should be graduated from. Well, i don't agree and Cyborg's has only ever been benefited by being in the titans not in league.Furthermore,i don't value big seven. Justice league is big Because the individual characters that team up,not because the team dynamics itself is that great.The only acception to that rule is manhunter. Especially compared to any other team. Even the avengers work better as team book. The way i see cyborg works better if the character stays away from the league or uses it as some goal or reference point. Doom patrol if not titans can accommodate him and is better for the character than jl.

Yeah! They started after a while. They shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. As for listening to the backlash, that's debatable. I am speaking for myself. I don't find any quirk in the character that draws me towards the character. He is just there.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Correction, most classic fans agree with you. There's a difference.

Well, pretty much everyone online, so...

No one stated there was a slew of POC writers that joined New 52, but New 52 helped started the foundation of bringing in POC writers to begin with. Wallace, Walker, Gene Yang, are just a few of the writers that was helped established in the New 52 era. Before that, there was NO POC writers, which was one of the concerns that New 52 attempted to address.

Are they working on many high-profile projects today? Also, the bringing in of writers and artists of color didn't require the rebooting of the entire universe. That's one of the many bad ideas that the New 52 had.

Except before New 52 was created, according to SDCC Comic Con Panel dedicated to diversity, Gail Simone, Dwayne McDuffie and more reported that over 88% of comic book readers were white males over the age of 28. So it's safe to say women readers weren't that interested pre new 52. Secondly, Marvel now debuted, but the majority of the female solo series from Marvel Now happened after the survey was performed. So what I'm doing here, is showing there's clearly a link between New 52 successes and a rise in female readership due to their continue push for diversity. Now if you want to believe it or not, is up to you.

You do realize you're not corroborating any of your numbers with sources. As much as I love Gail Simone and Dwayne McDuffie, where did they get their info? Was the source trustworthy? Was it a representative study?

You keep bringing out numbers but you're not providing any causal evidence or context to link those numbers to your argument.

Here is an article saying that readership of comics is 63% men and 37% women. Another article shows that superhero readership still skews about 78% male and that 57% of comics are bought by people aged 13-29. Both of these are from 2017.

So, a lot to unpack. It would seem to suggest that Simone and McDuffie probably weren't right about the age-range because I doubt that any market could have changed that drastically in only 6 years. For that matter, we could also credit Rebirth with bringing up this "increase" in younger readers (that is, if we assume that this wasn't already the case before 2011) since they're from after that relaunch.

Also, it shows that superhero comics still skew largely male. So, if the New 52 was supposed to help with that, it looks like it really didn't do much.

No, you don't know what the general consensus is. You pretend to know because you surround yourself with individuals with similar ideology, and therefore attempt to protrude that ideology into others like you ways is the only way. If you were actually part of the other demographics however, you would know what you state as "general consensus" is truly not a general consensus, just a consensus represented specifically under the classic reader mindset.

What's your definition of a classic fan? I'm not even 30 yet. I don't really even surround myself with many other comic book fans. I do know how to read online articles and gauge fan reactions, though.

Well it's clearly obvious you weren't in the cyborg appreciation thread during the time of walkers run, but that's you knock, not the knock of people who was enjoying the book and thought it was putting Cyborg in the right direction.

You do know that doesn't represent the general consensus. That's the reaction of one group of people on one site.

Incorrect, If that was the case, books like all of manga would be no where near as popular as they are today, when manga is literally destroying comics across the world. One Piece by itself, which is less lore than the majority of books written in comics, sells better than the top 100 comics combined. No, the reason new characters aren't successful today is specifically within the comic book industry, classic readers mostly lack an interest in trying new things and stick to things they've read since they were children. It has nothing to do with new establish lore but the reluctance of trying new things. This reluctance is why legacy characters can exist, as some classic readers are willing to give it a try since it's familiar long enough for a bit of new readership to come in and help stabilize the book. So let's not get it twisted that long term lore is needed in order for a book to be successful. That's only a problem within the comic book industry and that's only a problem towards a certain demographic.

LOL, we're talking about comics, not manga. Comics are unique because you have two major publishers basically owning a monopoly in the market and all of the most popular characters. Manga is different because you don't have Luffy competing with the likes of Superman or Spider-Man to get the spotlight in one fictional universe. One Piece is its own thing, owned by its own creator. Independent comics can find a fanbase, like Saga and East of West, but in an industry populated by characters that have been around since the 1930s, being established is a key factor to popularity. And it's much harder for brand new characters to find an audience UNLESS they are in some way tied to those established, popular characters.

At the same time though, that is also what's beautiful about comics: the mythology and the never-ending story is what attracts readers. People read Batman because he has such an enduring mythos and cast of characters. Paul Levitz really summed it up. He said that the beauty of comics is that a writer or artist can come on and build on what generations of other writers and artists built before them.

Cyborg was a part of that fabric of the DCU, until the New 52 came along and destroyed those connections. That's why nobody knew what to do with him.

It didn't stunted him, End of story. See what I did there? We can keep going if you like.

Yeah, it did. Look at the sales numbers for his solo title. They certainly suggest that it did.

Seeing at the JLO appreciation thread was mostly celebrating how they were taking Cyborg to a new direction versus the tired Man vs Machine storyline and the excitement of Williamson space exploration, we'll have to agree to disagree.

You know why they constantly had to dig up the man vs. machine trope? Because without the Titans lore, there was really nothing else to him.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

denying cyborg from being a titan is like denying the thing from ever being an ff member.

exactly!!!

[Rod G]

Half the fan base liked it.

More than half.

[Vampire Savior]

You said character being a founding league member instead of titans member makes it better push for diversity. How?

I think I can answer this.

There are some fans looking for an ultimate black man hero from DC (it seems to me that it MUST be from DC Comics, and the reasons for that are, I believe, a bit complex). They won't stop complaining until they get this (I don't think they ever really will get this, and definitely not in the foreseeable future). Some of them look to Cyborg to fulfill this dream, but are left disillusioned when Cyborg does not do this, as the attempts to elevate him are just a string of failures, including the big JL film.

Despite Cyborg doing nothing of any note on the Justice League, they believe it's the best position for Cyborg to fulfill their dream. I think they see the Teen Titans as not a prominent enough team. Thus, they would rather be slaves in heaven (having Cyborg in the Justice League where he only suffers as a character, I guess holding out hope that something will eventually work out), than be kings in hell (having Cyborg in the Teen Titans where he has a history of having better development, but he's not on the team with the trinity and other big DC icons).

I think the thinking is flawed all up and down in all kinds of ways, and these people are mostly continually setting themselves up to be disappointed, but that's how it goes as I understand it.

[manwhohaseverything]

LOL, we're talking about comics, not manga. Comics are unique because you have two major publishers basically owning a monopoly in the market and all of the most popular characters. Manga is different because you don't have Luffy competing with the likes of Superman or Spider-Man to get the spotlight in one fictional universe. One Piece is its own thing, owned by its own creator. Independent comics can find a fanbase, like Saga and East of West, but in an industry populated by characters that have been around since the 1930s, being established is a key factor to popularity. And it's much harder for brand new characters to find an audience UNLESS they are in some way tied to those established, popular characters.

At the same time though, that is also what's beautiful about comics: the mythology and the never-ending story is what attracts readers. People read Batman because he has such an enduring mythos and cast of characters. Paul Levitz really summed it up. He said that the beauty of comics is that a writer or artist can come on and build on what generations of other writers and artists built before them.

Luffy doesn't need to compete for spotlight. But, he does need to compete for popularity and sales. Kimetsu no yaiba(demon slayer) just beat one piece this year. There competition is allowed and fair.There is popularity rankings and sales figures. Oda himself admitted naruto did better outside japan. Manga is brought up for comparison because it is the same medium, just using different models for sustaining itself.

It isn't beautiful. It's lack of creativity being defended . Alan moore's "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends?" is a regretful melancholic statement.Not a joyful one. People read batman he has had great outside media portrayals. These portrayals also have a start, middle and a finish. Even then the number of stories that actually matter to the character vs number of stories that don't skewed one way by a large margin. Yet, there is references to events from the past. Batman is the lesser of the convoluted titles.He has never been much rebooted. Every other character on the otherhand is a convoluted mess. New52, precrisis, postcrisis, blah! There isn't storytelling anymore only fixing the stupid continuity.Many character's have become a shell of what they were originally concieved as. They didn't find new audience because of modern takes. They just flounder in mediocrity . some didn't ofcourse like redhood.

I think I can answer this.

There are some fans looking for an ultimate black man hero from DC (it seems to me that it MUST be from DC Comics, and the reasons for that are, I believe, a bit complex). They won't stop complaining until they get this (I don't think they ever really will get this, and definitely not in the foreseeable future). Some of them look to Cyborg to fulfill this dream, but are left disillusioned when Cyborg does not do this, as the attempts to elevate him are just a string of failures, including the big JL film.

Despite Cyborg doing nothing of any note on the Justice League, they believe it's the best position for Cyborg to fulfill their dream. I think they see the Teen Titans as not a prominent enough team. Thus, they would rather be slaves in heaven (having Cyborg in the Justice League where he only suffers as a character, I guess holding out hope that something will eventually work out), than be kings in hell (having Cyborg in the Teen Titans where he has a history of having better development, but he's not on the team with the trinity and other big DC icons).

I think the thinking is flawed all up and down in all kinds of ways, and these people are mostly continually setting themselves up to be disappointed, but that's how it goes as I understand it.

So, they would rather cyborg ditch the titans which has been an ip in trouble because of management. But was once a major competitor in regards to sales and had outsold jl. Than cyborg help elevate the titans there by elevating himself. That's too bad.
Listen, i get that . But, if an ultimate black superhero is the need then black lightning and john stwert has a greater chance of becoming iconic status as league members than cyborg. Black lightning especially can be a great one in my opinion. Ofcourse, keeping aside the black and lighting powers nonsense. The character itself is great and has the leadership vibe. Not to mention mr. Terrific. The guy needs some serious push. But, the problem with terrific is the same as cyborg. Batman.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Luffy doesn't need to compete for spotlight. But, he does need to compete for popularity and sales. Kimetsu no yaiba just beat one piece this year. There is popularity rankings and sales figures. Oda himself admitted naruto did better outside japan. Manga is brought up for comparison because it is the same medium, just using different models for sustaining itself.

Yeah, I'm pointing out the different models. The different circumstances are what make comics different from manga. Manga is all creator-owned work. American comics are different because, again, you have two publishing giants that own the most popular characters and when you work as a writer for those companies, the characters you create for them are theirs, but you may also be entitled to royalties. So, in that way, it is more corporate but DC and Marvel use that model to amass characters and build up a universe. THAT is what they sell to their customers: a universe with a wealth of stories that all take place within a main continuity, with a few forays into other continuities with different versions of popular characters.

So, in that regard, I don't know if you can compare them because they kind of sell different things. When you're buying manga or an indie comic, you are just buying that story. When you buy from Marvel and DC, you're buying a story that is a fraction of a whole universe. And that is actually what attracts a lot of readers.

It isn't beautiful. It's lack of creativity being defended . Alan moore's "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends?" is a regretful melancholic statement.Not a joyful one. People read batman he has had great outside media portrayals. These portrayals also have a start, middle and a finish. Even then the number of stories that actually matter to the character vs number of stories that don't skewed one way by a large margin. Yet, there is references to events from the past. Batman is the lesser of the convoluted titles.He has never been much rebooted. Every other character on the otherhand is a convoluted mess. New52, precrisis, postcrisis, blah! There isn't storytelling anymore only fixing the stupid continuity.Many character's have become a shell of what they were originally concieved as. They didn't find new audience because of modern takes. They just flounder in mediocrity . some did ofcourse like redhood.

Okay, then would you want them to stop publishing Batman comics tomorrow? If that's what you think they should do, then stop buying Batman, Superman, and whoever else, and write a letter to DC telling them they should stop publishing those characters.

Of course, they're not going to do that because Batman is incredibly popular and people want to continue reading about his adventures and they want all those adventures to fit together. Those media adaptations you talk about, well, adapt the source material. Geoff Johns said it best: without the comics, these characters fossilize and then become irrelevant because no new life is being pumped into them. It's the comics that give Hollywood material to adapt in the first place. As an aside, though, there is no evidence that actually suggests that movie adaptations drive up comic book sales.

Also, the constant reboots are what I'm saying is unnecessary. The New 52 didn't have to be a reboot. In fact, that wasn't even the plan until Dan Didio decided at the last minute that it was. We missed out on so many great titles that were planned because of that stupid decision.

[Vampire Savior]

So, they would rather cyborg ditch the titans which has been an ip in trouble because of management. But was once a major competitor in regards to sales and had outsold jl. Than cyborg help elevate the titans there by elevating himself. That's too bad.
Listen, i get that . But, if an ultimate black superhero is the need then black lightning and john stwert has a greater chance of becoming iconic status as league members than cyborg. Black lightning especially can be a great one in my opinion. Ofcourse, keeping aside the black and lighting powers nonsense. The character itself is great and has the leadership vibe. Not to mention mr. Terrific. The guy needs some serious push. But, the problem with terrific is the same as cyborg. Batman.

To be fair, the Titans franchise has been a toilet for quite some time, so I can understand some of these fans wanting to keep him away from it for that reason, but I know that isn't the only, or even main reason. The main one is realizing this dream of an ultimate black man hero, and the thinking is Cyborg cannot achieve that on the Teen Titans.

As for which black hero DC has that can reach some kind of iconic status, that's really debatable, sadly because all of them are really ill-equipped for such a position. Black Lightning personally doesn't appeal to me, in part because he's too afrocentric, and I'd rather DC's premier black hero, if there would be one, would not be some character that is figuratively like, "YO I"M BLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKK!!!!". That's my taste, though. I'm sure there are those out there who think I just said the worst thing ever, but *shrug*, oh well.

[manwhohaseverything]

Yeah, I'm pointing out the different models. The different circumstances are what make comics different from manga. Manga is all creator-owned work. American comics are different because, again, you have two publishing giants that own the most popular characters and when you work as a writer for those companies, the characters you create for them are theirs, but you may also be entitled to royalties. So, in that way, it is more corporate but DC and Marvel use that model to amass characters and build up a universe. THAT is what they sell to their customers: a universe with a wealth of stories that all take place within a main continuity, with a few forays into other continuities with different versions of popular characters.



Okay, then would you want them to stop publishing Batman comics tomorrow? If that's what you think they should do, then put your money where your mouth is: stop buying Batman, Superman, and whoever else, and write a letter to DC telling them they should stop publishing those characters.

Of course, they're not going to do that because Batman is incredibly popular and people want to continue reading about his adventures and they want all those adventures to fit together. Those media adaptations you talk about, well, adapt the source material. Geoff Johns said it best: without the comics, these characters fossilize and then become irrelevant because no new life is being pumped into them. It's the comics that give Hollywood material to adapt in the first place. As an aside, though, there is no evidence that actually suggests that movie adaptations drive up comic book sales.

Also, the constant reboots are what I'm saying is unnecessary. The New 52 didn't have to be a reboot. In fact, that wasn't even the plan until Dan Didio decided at the last minute that it was. We missed out on so many great titles that planned titles because of that stupid decision.

Well, the problem is they get a similar world from mangas without all the convoluted explanations. People are saying they need to pay attention to the model. Adapt things that can be replicated because it needs to. Manga industry is a much healthier industry, even though it has its own fair share of grave problems. Why? I will answer that with a comparison. Dc is like a hung up boyfriend or husband who doesn't move on from an ex. While, manga industry is perpetually moving forward. When one piece ends something else will take its place. The ip's that don't either follow seasonal method like dragon ball, gundum, cyborg009.. Etc or spin off/change method with new creator, new story and new protagonists like boruto or power rangers. They wouldn't be stuck if dragon ball ended. Imagine what would happen if batman starts to fail and lose relevance like superman is. The company would be in big trouble. Marvel atleast has better footing in that department. It's marvel name tag that sells.Even then, problem remains the same regarding lack of creativity and storylines becoming stale. Stories are meant to end. And that's the beauty of them. A story that doesn't end is monotonous. And As said, the manga industry creates multiple different worlds with each ip.narutoverse,one piece verse, dragonball verse, hxhverse... Etc they are all easy to get into and get lost into in a good way. Their worlds are radically different and everyone of them has manythings to offer.

Yeah!i would. I would make it seasonal. If people have great pitches then the books will be published with a start, finish and end. Otherwise not, i do put my money where my mouth is.

Ofcourse they wouldn't. Batman will be popular, until he isn't.Comics are the reason the slow fossilisation occurs. Not the other way around. Instead of a good ending, these characters get slow agonising deaths after everything is sucked dry from them as ip. It's kinda sad. Hollywood picks and chooses what is said to be good material and adapts them. Hollywood stories uses them in a way that it has a start and an ending. So people watch that instead of reading convoluted comics which is very hard to get into. One of the reason Hollywood doesn't increase sales for comics. And anime propells manga. Anime is also advertisement for the manga. If anyone wants to futher plot points they would have to buy the manga.Since,manga will always be ahead with a few exceptions.Story drives sales. Nobody will miss anything if they miss an issue of superman.

The precrisis fans would say the same for postcrisis reboot. It wasn't needed. You are just stuck in a different era than them. New52 guys want theirs.It is all the same nonsense. A new reader has to learn about all this nonsense to get a handle on things. Why should i read a dull superman, when i can get better ones outside with one punch man or my hero? Why would anyone want to read batman when berserk exists? On a funny not. These manga industries provide the same concepts, philosophies and tell better stories in creative manner, overall.

[Agent Z]

As for specific runs, Azzarello's Wonder Woman and Morrison's Action Comics were better than the subsequent Rebirth comics. Doesn't mean those comics were bad, I actually think Rucka's WW run was better than most Post-Crisis WW stories. (If you browse my top 10 Modern Wonder Woman stories in my signature, you can probably tell I don't like Post-Crisis WW that much).

If I were to go by your signature and some of your comments, I'd come to the conclusion you didn't like Wonder Woman, period.

[Agent Z]

Wallace was bad until they let an actual black writer use him (which is what they should’ve done with the New 52 in the first place but Lee and Harras gave jobs to their old buddies from Marvel, Image, and Wildstorm in the most blatant example of cronyism I’ve seen), but I thought Bunker was cool. What was wrong with him?

Of the characters you listed only Cass could be considered above C-List, I mean Bloodwynd? Seriously? No one gives a **** about Bloodwynd lmao. And Cass was thoroughly ruined Pre-Flashpoint by all the crap Didio did to her, (remember she was evil in the most blatant example of character assassination they had to hand wave away with drugs which was even stupider) so it’s not like Pre-Flashpoint treated the DC PoC well. New 52 dropped the ball a lot in that regard, I didn’t like what they did with Mr. Terrific, but the intent was to make the DCU less lily white and that’s not a bad thing.

Cass being turned evil was dumb but the explanation they gave for it was the best they could. It's not like it was out of character for Slade either given his history of irrational grudges towards superheroes and using teenagers to do his dirty work.