How do you rate Dan Didio's tenure at DC Comics?

[Rod G]

He didn't suffer anymore in the New 52 than he did in the eras that preceeded it or the ones that proceeded it. His products have been a mixed bag, will continue to be a mixed bag, and what continuity they utilize doesn't really mean squat when it comes to that. Its far more about other factors like the creative team, how said team utilize whatever continuity he's in, and most importantly what freedoms they have or don't. More often than not all those things don't align, with by far the most often one falling short is the freedom factor. Its just the way DC is with him, and its been that way for decades.

Continuity just doesn't matter for Superman. They could get rid of it again tomorrow and it still wouldn't matter. With some franchises, especially ones heavy on legacy, it does. Superman isn't, not in the same way others are dependent on it. Its the whole reason the best stories DC have told with him regularly are out of continuity tales. Because its easier for a good creative team to have freedom, and what his history exactly is really doesn't matter. Origins, heavily alternate tales, end-game tales, they're usually always better than what's going on in the main line at the time. And usually stand up way better. At this point his history can be what you want it to be, as large or as small, he's that stand-alone. People know Superman just by looking at him and that's all you need.

You do make some very good points there, Sacred Knight.

If anything, 2000-2001 were the worst years for Superman because he basically kissed Luthor’s @$$.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Um, 1st, there's not 100's of sites dedicated to comic books in general, let alone hundreds of sites dedicated to talking about how new 52 was a failure. Again, hyperbole.

Well, there are, so...

And I'll just repost my quote as a response.

Except again, your response dances around the issue that I'm talking about. And as skyvolt pointed out, DC didn't need the New 52 reboot to bring in writers of color. They could have just brought in more writers of color.

And the criteria wasn't to bring new POC writers into high profile books, though that did happen with both Christopher Priest and Geng, but to finally have POC writers in comics to begin with, when before New 52, neither Marvel nor DC had POC writers. Now, both companies have both, and new 52 started that foundation.

Wait, do you...actually think that no writers or artists of color had ever worked for DC or Marvel before the New 52??? Uhhhhhhh, yeah, that's wrong. Again, DC didn't need the New 52 to bring in writers and artists of color. All they had to do was pick up the phone.

Nope, DC Rebirth was their attempt to catering back to the classic fans, because of the classic fans outrage towards the new 52. But since they now realize the classic fans aren't going to save DC comics as their sales continue to plunder, we're now getting 5g coming up. So as stated before, in the end of the day, some people liked all of it, some people liked some of it, and some people dislike it.

5G, which has already sparked major backlash and is actually likely to be downplayed significantly now that Dan Didio is out at DC? Okay...

And again, I don't care if you don't think I can back it up, I know what I saw and I'm sticking with those statistics, and the DC Nielsan poll that indicated 92% of males happened in 2012, not in 2017.

https://www.themarysue.com/dc-nielsen-survey-results/

Well, it's obvious you cannot because that Nielson survey itself states that not only was the New 52 unable to change the gender ratio (and in fact made it worse as 92% of the readers surveyed in 2012 were still male) but that it also failed to substantially bring in new readers, as only 5% of people surveyed identified as new readers.

Nice attempt at trying to incorrectly use psychological definitions, but the point still stands. And you can't claim "FACT" when it's not a fact. For the characters that were missing during, you had characters added


Val Zod: Earth 2 Superman

Aquawoman: Earth 2 Aquawoman

Dr. Fate:

Green Lantern

Wally West

We Are Robin

Mr. Terrific

Static Shock

Voodoo

Cyborg

The Shazam Family

Bunker

and much more.

Actually, no because the characters I mentioned were only the tip of the iceberg of characters of color who were erased in the New 52. Also, you do know that Static, Voodoo, Mr. Terrific, and Cyborg all existed before the New 52, right? In fact, not only that but it's also a consensus that the New 52 versions of those characters are shells of their former selves. And its also telling that all of those titles were soon canceled.

Plus, we've already gone over how New 52 Wally West was also extremely problematic, since not only was he introduced as an overwrite of a fan-favorite character, but again he was introduced as a straight-up stereotype in order to be a prop in Barry's white savior story. So, yeah...Plus, he was only really developed into a character after it was retconned so that he wasn't actually Wally West, but instead Wallace West, Wally's cousin.

And what Green Lantern are you referring to? Simon and Jessica? Again, in those cases, since the Green Lantern comics actually continued on pretty much without any rebooting, the New 52 wasn't really necessary for their introduction.

Also, do any of them have ongoings now? Of the new characters you mentioned, only Wallace, Simon, Jessica, and the Shazam family are still around and none of them currently have their own title.

Now no one is debating that some of these properties were horribly handled. But to say the DC Universe was less diverse after New 52 was straight false. There wasn't a single POC solo book going forward from either Marvel or DC until New 52 came into place.

It's not false because there were more diverse characters before the New 52 than afterwards. And, of course, what you've said is also demonstrably false or hyperbole to say the least. Marvel has almost continuously published Black Panther and in 2010, they launched the Black Panther: the Most Dangerous Man Alive series, which was still ongoing when the New 52 launched. Only a year before the New 52, DC had been publishing the Great Ten in their own series. And of course, those characters disappeared when the New 52 came along, save for August General in Iron.

And what's funny is that two of your links are articles from the exact same site.

That doesn't disprove anything that those articles say.

None of the sites presented had problems giving them their props, they, like many others including myself, go on to indicate the strengths that New 52 had as well as their weaknesses. And that's what you can't seem to understand. Very few people here, from what I've seen, has said the New 52 is flawless. The majority of people here will agree that much of the execution of New 52 was flawed. BUT, many, including myself, will agree there were still some great books that came from the era as well as many of the ideas presented in early stages were great ideas. It's just the execution from those ideas that caused them problems. And sales did not start to go down after one month, it took years for new 52 sales to start dropping, and that's because marvel release their nuclear weapon of the star wars franchise, which was unstoppable at that time. Before that, New 52 was the first time in a long time where DC was selling very well in comparison to Marvel. The last time they had such a competitive ratio was the blackest night events I believe.

Lol. The fact that one of the articles presents its title as a question is not at all evidence of hesitation. Sure it's not. Also, did I not say that the New 52 had its positives? Pretty sure I did. HOWEVER, it's a general consensus that the bad of it outweighed the good, which is evidenced by the fact that DC has been playing cleanup ever since 2016. Even now, they're still playing clean up from the New 52.

I highly doubt your grandma watches anime (though props to her if she does), but that doesn't change the fact that One Piece in less than 7 years is about to sell more comic book copies than Batman entire 70+ year history. And is expected to become the number one selling comic book series of all time in less than 3 years. Though it does have major competition now, with demon slayer being the first manga to beat one piece in 2019 for sales. That series sold 12 million books in one year, almost 10 times the amount as batman. And guess what? This book was literally started 3 years ago. So as stated before, decades of lore is not necessary for a story to be good. If the writer has his proper writing chops, he can write a good story.

I'm sorry but you're fooling yourself if you think One Piece has anywhere near the cultural impact that Batman does. Manga and comic sales are one thing, but a) comic and manga sales are kind of a declining industry and b) they only capture one, minute aspect of an overall franchise's staying power. Again, which franchise has produced multibillion-dollar blockbusters and is known around the globe? Which one is filming a new installment right now? Which one has won Oscars and has an entire holiday dedicated to the character? Hint: it's not One Piece.

And on top of that, once Oda is done with One Piece, what happens then? It's over. The merchandise would still be available, but no manga would still be written or sold unless Oda himself returns to the series. Batman is continuously written and has built up lore that keeps him going because he is owned by DC Comics. So, yeah, they're two different models entirely and you really can't compare the two, especially when one is so much more far-reaching (again, because of the lore).

Again, it doesn't. As I stated before, it may have more impact in certain countries, but One piece would have more cultural impact in other countries. To say Batman has more cultural impact than batman just speaks to American narcissism. You only need to go to places like Japan or Korea to see how much more cultural impact One Piece has over Batman.

Dude. I can guarantee you that almost everyone in Japan knows Batman and so do people in most other countries. Again, and I say this as someone who watches anime and loves it, but I doubt many people who are not into anime (which believe it or not is the majority of people around the world) know One Piece or Demon Slayer.

I never said everyone who read the book absolutely loved the book, I stated the book under walker was successful, because it was. The book was never canceled under his run, and it was evident during that time digital sales were a stronger component for him just like for Ms.Marvel, who has a stronger following in the digital area versus the physical copies. But in the end, Walker's run was successful, as it was selling enough to keep the series going for readers to follow, and this was after they took away their high profile artist after like freaking 4 issues. (which once again reflects to my problem with DC changing out writers/artists regularly.)

His run of like 9 issues? Plus, again, if it was so strong and doing so well, then why did it sink to below 20,000 copies in sales per month.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Maybe for the wider Superman family things are good*, but I wouldn't say so for Clark himself. I think even having one-two good runs in the New 52 means that the era itself didn't cause him to suffer, just some of the stories in it. Because he was certainly suffering as a character in the era before Flashpoint. He was a joke by the end.

Too bad those one or two runs were weighed down by a bunch of crap in between...

Rebirth...I gave the Tomasi/Gleason run two trades (which I bought) to interest me and they weren't that good. And it looks like they got worse from there. The first two floppies of Jurgens' Action run were bland as all get out and I never went back. Bendis had some promise but lost me pretty quickly with his Bendis-isms and some of the creative decisions that I really don't like (Clark's childhood with the Legion not being in canon, unless that's changed, is the most grating). I KNOW there are plenty of people who love this stuff, and all the power to them, it sold well. It was their turn again. But I can't consider the character as suffering too much in the previous era (across the board at least) when things have been so underwhelming for him in this one. He may not be suffering as he was before Flashpoint hit, but I think he's still too...basic bitch for the Action Ace.

Well, the Tomasi/Gleason run is remembered as some of the best Superman comics of the past decade by a large amount of the fanbase. Also, Bendis-isms aside, I will take his Superman over Lobdell's or even Morrison's any day of the week. So, yeah, still superior to how it was in the New 52 for me.

And honestly, you stick Rucka on a Lois Lane book you are getting good results. The surrounding continuity doesn't matter because as an icon and character, she's well suited for him. He could have written a killer Lane book in the New 52 or pre-Flashpoint as well. Ditto Fraction on Jimmy. These's characters and their core premises, broad characterizations and appeal are bigger than one continuity.

Except I doubt he wanted much to do at all with the New 52 continuity to be completely honest. He seems to be one of the creators, like Mark Waid and Alex Ross, who absolutely despised the New 52.

[Sacred Knight]

Morrison's run is remembered as some of the best Superman comics of the past decade too. But just as that doesn't and doesn't have to stop you from being personally unimpressed with it, it doesn't have to stop others from being generally unimpressed with Tomasi's run either.

[Rod G]

Sure buddy, millions of people online agrees with your argument that new 52 was horrible ideas.....





I'm just going to repeat my quote:








I cannot speak for where Dwayne McDuffie, Gail Simone , etc got their content from as the information was given during an SDCC panel as a powerpoint presentation. But it doesn't matter that I'm not providing links. I was at the panel and I know what I saw. I believe the content, you wouldn't believe the content because we're on different opinions, but it doesn't change the fact that this was their studies. So you can disagree with it, and I'll agree with it. especially since the polygon article clearly indicated that during the early stages of New 52, the amount of male readership was even more than the amount that Dwayne McDuffie panel quoted, though Dwayne McDuffie statistics specifically represented white males over the age of 28, while the new 52 poll grouped all of males together under one group. Which means that yes, within 6 years, DC and Marvel were able to help usher in a much needed demographic into comics. And New 52 started the foundation of bringing forward that new demographic.





Classic fans has nothing to do with age, it has to do with viewpoints.

Common Traits of Classic Fans. Of course not every single classic fan falls under all of these traits, but they normally incorporate some of these trait.

Classic fans value continuity and tradition.

Classic fans often have very strong nostalgic values, focusing on characters that they read about when they were younger.

Classic fans are often resistance to new characters.

Classic fans attempts to tell new readers that things they enjoy are wrong or incorrect. This is evident in this thread with posts as your own as well as classic fans going into new/legacy characters appreciation threads and talking trash about the character (which the appreciation portion is against the rules by the way.)


These are just certain aspects of Classic Fans. On the other hand, New Readers have the following:

New Reader Characteristic:

Are more accepting of New Characters and willing to give them a try.

Care less about Continuity and more about if the story is good.

Often have a higher value on Diversity and Proper Representation.







You do know going to echo chambers of your own viewpoints doesn't represent general consensus right? Sounds like someone needs to follow their own advice as to what general consensus is.





The business aspect of comics does not change the storytelling aspect. They are the same as manga, you're telling a story using pictures, and as such if that story is good, than that's all that matters. Trying to overcomplicate with continuity and lore history doesn't change the fact that if you have a good story, you have a good story. You don't need 60 plus years of history to tell a good story. If you do, you're horrible as a writer. So unless we're saying that Manga writers are far superior to their comic book counterpart (which maybe possible) I'd like to give comic book writers the benefit of the doubt that they don't need to be chained to lore to produce a good story. It's alright to use lore to help the story, but when continuity and lore becomes a crutch, you need to go back to writing school.






No it didn't.

Someone like that would never value these facts, so talking to that someone is like talking to a brick wall,leo619.



The DCU needed a fresh start after 10 years of messing things up back in 2000.

That’s my take on it.

[leo619]

Well, there are, so...

No there aren't, once again, hyperbole.

Wait, do you...actually think that no writers or artists of color had ever worked for DC or Marvel before the New 52??? Uhhhhhhh, yeah, that's wrong. Again, DC didn't need the New 52 to bring in writers and artists of color. All they had to do was pick up the phone.

And clearly this is a perfect example of trying to debate versus reading what's actually written. How in the blue hell would I think no other POC writer ever written in DC or Marvel when I specifically stated Dwayne McDuffie talked about his Justice League run and how classic readers were being adverse to diversity attempts. This entire portion has been about no POC writers writing in Marvel or DC during a particular period of time before New 52 came in, and New 52 started the foundation to have POC writers issued more regularly, just like Milestone did during it's stages (though Milestone did it 20x better, but that's a different story.)

5G, which has already sparked major backlash and is actually likely to be downplayed significantly now that Dan Didio is out at DC? Okay...

Oh you mean the same time of backlash from many classic readers while new readers have already expressed interest in the new situation? Yeah.

Well, it's obvious you cannot because that Nielson survey itself states that not only was the New 52 unable to change the gender ratio (and in fact made it worse as 92% of the readers surveyed in 2012 were still male) but that it also failed to substantially bring in new readers, as only 5% of people surveyed identified as new readers.

Um.. it's obvious you cannot. I specifically stated the Nielson survey clearly indicates that the statistics Dwayne and Gail initiated during SDCC was accurate information, as the information they provided, which was 88% of comic book readers being straight white males over the age of 28, matches closely to the Nielson Survey from the early stages of New 52, but as the new 52 years progressed, the women reading demographic flourish as indicated by later polls seeing huge increase in women reading demographic.

Actually, no because the characters I mentioned were only the tip of the iceberg of characters of color who were erased in the New 52. Also, you do know that Static, Voodoo, Mr. Terrific, and Cyborg all existed before the New 52, right? In fact, not only that but it's also a consensus that the New 52 versions of those characters are shells of their former selves. And its also telling that all of those titles were soon canceled.

Plus, we've already gone over how New 52 Wally West was also extremely problematic, since not only was he introduced as an overwrite of a fan-favorite character, but again he was introduced as a straight-up stereotype in order to be a prop in Barry's white savior story. So, yeah...Plus, he was only really developed into a character after it was retconned so that he wasn't actually Wally West, but instead Wallace West, Wally's cousin.

And what Green Lantern are you referring to? Simon and Jessica? Again, in those cases, since the Green Lantern comics actually continued on pretty much without any rebooting, the New 52 wasn't really necessary for their introduction.

Also, do any of them have ongoings now? Of the new characters you mentioned, only Wallace, Simon, Jessica, and the Shazam family are still around and none of them currently have their own title.

What do you not understand, the reason many of these series canceled wasn't because of bad ideas, it was because of bad execution which many have agreed upon, is still doesn't change the fact that the ideas of doing more with diversity was more pronounce as part of the new 52 initiative as well as DC specifically stated that was part of their initial drive. You keep talking about the failings of these books as if the execution of said POC debuts were being debated, which wasn't. But that still doesn't change the fact that one of the key efforts of New 52 was the advancement of diversity, and thus they release 4 POC solo books initially when they originally had none Pre-52. (And no, the great ten doesn't count as that's a ensemble book, not a POC solo book. That's like saying part of Dwayne McDuffie's Justice League run was a POC solo book since the majority of cast on his team were POC's for a time.)

Lol. The fact that one of the articles presents its title as a question is not at all evidence of hesitation. Sure it's not. Also, did I not say that the New 52 had its positives? Pretty sure I did. HOWEVER, it's a general consensus that the bad of it outweighed the good, which is evidenced by the fact that DC has been playing cleanup ever since 2016. Even now, they're still playing clean up from the New 52.

The fact that you're referring to the title versus the actual article when states that so far he's enjoying it clearly indicate you want to take away what you want, which is you're right. But it's not a general consensus that the bad outweighed the good. Some believe so, others do not, and we can keep pulling articles from all across the web to represent our point that different people have different viewpoints on the representation of new 52.

I'm sorry but you're fooling yourself if you think One Piece has anywhere near the cultural impact that Batman does. Manga and comic sales are one thing, but a) comic and manga sales are kind of a declining industry and b) they only capture one, minute aspect of an overall franchise's staying power. Again, which franchise has produced multibillion-dollar blockbusters and is known around the globe? Which one is filming a new installment right now? Which one has won Oscars and has an entire holiday dedicated to the character? Hint: it's not One Piece.

And on top of that, once Oda is done with One Piece, what happens then? It's over. The merchandise would still be available, but no manga would still be written or sold unless Oda himself returns to the series. Batman is continuously written and has built up lore that keeps him going because he is owned by DC Comics. So, yeah, they're two different models entirely and you really can't compare the two, especially when one is so much more far-reaching (again, because of the lore).



Dude. I can guarantee you that almost everyone in Japan knows Batman and so do people in most other countries. Again, and I say this as someone who watches anime and loves it, but I doubt many people who are not into anime (which believe it or not is the majority of people around the world) know One Piece or Demon Slayer.

Wow, I shouldn't be surprised that someone would take American ordeals and put them as blanket viewpoints for people across the world. But somehow I am. In case you don't understand, Cultural Impact isn't just about awareness, it's about what that property is doing in different countries. Outside of the blockbuster movie, almost everything you listed is from an American perspective. Japan doesn't care about the Oscars. Japan doesn't care about Batman animated series, Japan doesn't even care about Batman's freaking comic books, because comic books sell absolutely horrible in Japan. Awareness means a slither for cultural impact. Cultural impact, is what a brand does in a particular country, and it's safe to say that in Japan, One Piece has MUCH more of a cultural impact then batman. Hence the entire point, different properties have different cultural impacts in different countries, and to try and state otherwise makes you sound like a xenophobe.

With that said, the point still stands. Mange clearly indicates that Lore is not necessary for a story to be good. A good story is necessary for a good story to be good. Manga continues to come up with brand new stories that has no 30+ year long history and continues to dominate comics in terms of sales. Storytelling is just that, storytelling.

His run of like 9 issues? Plus, again, if it was so strong and doing so well, then why did it sink to below 20,000 copies in sales per month.

And I'll just repeat myself

I never said everyone who read the book absolutely loved the book, I stated the book under walker was successful, because it was. The book was never canceled under his run, and it was evident during that time digital sales were a stronger component for him just like for Ms.Marvel, who has a stronger following in the digital area versus the physical copies. But in the end, Walker's run was successful, as it was selling enough to keep the series going for readers to follow, and this was after they took away their high profile artist after like freaking 4 issues. (which once again reflects to my problem with DC changing out writers/artists regularly.)

[leo619]

Someone like that would never value these facts, so talking to that someone is like talking to a brick wall,leo619.



The DCU needed a fresh start after 10 years of messing things up back in 2000.

That’s my take on it.

Oh I understand, believe I know none of what I say is going to make any sort of impact with the people I listed. but I will NOT stand by and allow these classic readers to try and bully folks like you from enjoying New 52. Some Classic Readers seem to believe that folks are wrong for enjoying something that they dislike, and can't respect other's people's interest. But I'm not tolerating it, not in this thread. If folks like Rebirth, let them like Rebirth. If folks like New 52, there's nothing wrong with liking either.

[Rod G]

Oh I understand, believe I know none of what I say is going to make any sort of impact with the people I listed. but I will NOT stand by and allow these classic readers to try and bully folks like you from enjoying New 52. Some Classic Readers seem to believe that folks are wrong for enjoying something that they dislike, and can't respect other's people's interest. But I'm not tolerating it, not in this thread. If folks like Rebirth, let them like Rebirth. If folks like New 52, there's nothing wrong with liking either.

Thank you for these words.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well, the Tomasi/Gleason run is remembered as some of the best Superman comics of the past decade by a large amount of the fanbase. Also, Bendis-isms aside, I will take his Superman over Lobdell's or even Morrison's any day of the week. So, yeah, still superior to how it was in the New 52 for me.

You are comparing morrison's and Bendis's run. That's laughable. Bendis's run is a snooze fest, the only books that are good aren't written by him,Lois and jimmy book. I would take morrison's run over anything that is being served currently. Furthermore, it is up there with Tomasi's run and beats it for me,quite comfortably. I like my superman who feels human and has issues. I don't care for space-jesus. Bendis's run is turning him into that. He trashed whats left of the vigilante aspect in the character. His alien aspect has been trashed since rebirth so can't be blamed for that(Besides, postcrisis superman wasn't much of an alien.He is a human with sun powers) . His comics is drama, drama and just that. There is nothing relatable.Worse, Even the kents are back in such an environment . Clark became the literal man who has everything.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

No there aren't...

Again, you're free to search for them yourself. They're out there....

And clearly this is a perfect example of trying to debate versus reading what's actually written...This entire portion has been about no POC writers writing in Marvel or DC during a particular period of time before New 52 came in, and New 52 started the foundation to have POC writers issued more regularly, just like Milestone did during it's stages (though Milestone did it 20x better, but that's a different story.)

No, I'd say its a clear example of poor argument. When you say things like "the New 52 laid the foundation to bring in writers of color" it sounds like you actually think that writers of color weren't there before. As several posters including myself and skyvolt have said, the foundation was already there. DC had a pool of diverse talent it could call upon. The New 52 was not necessary. It's also giving the New 52 way too much credit as one of the things that people actually criticized the reboot for was its lack of diversity in terms of both characters and talent. And again, this is just another example of vilifying "classic fans" as you call them without actually paying attention to anything that they say.

You're right. Milestone did do it 20X better than the New 52 because the New 52 didn't do, well, anything. A lot of the characters of color were horribly mismanaged to the point where their titles died out very quickly and we rarely got any writers and artists of color actually working on those characters or any characters. Plus, the ones that did didn't last long. Like how Marc Bernardin was literally driven off of Static because of the mismanagement behind the scenes.

And it's funny how you still have not addressed those points. You keep ignoring them and saying "New 52 laid the foundation" and cite no real evidence when multiple people have already told you that it didn't. It actually did a lot to hurt DC in terms of diversity.

Also, as an aside, it's those "classic fans" who keep clamoring for a return for Milestone characters because they want them around. So maybe instead of attacking them as the enemy, you should actually listen to what they're saying.

Oh you mean the same time of backlash from many classic readers while new readers have already expressed interest in the new situation? Yeah.

Honestly, I've barely paid any attention to the whole situation, but it doesn't take a genius to tell you that permanently making Superman 80 years old might not be the best idea. It also doesn't take a genius to see that, if the man planning the initiative is fired for creating a hostile work environment, what he's planning might not be that great.

Um.. it's obvious you cannot. I specifically stated the Nielson survey clearly indicates that the statistics Dwayne and Gail initiated during SDCC was accurate information, as the information they provided, which was 88% of comic book readers being straight white males over the age of 28, matches closely to the Nielson Survey from the early stages of New 52, but as the new 52 years progressed, the women reading demographic flourish as indicated by later polls seeing huge increase in women reading demographic.

LOL, you do realize that if those numbers are from 2012, you have really no evidence linking the New 52 to an increase in female readership, correct? You are literally just assuming and have no evidence to back up your point. In fact, if those numbers from 2012 (a year after the relaunch) are correct, then that means that the New 52 actually decreased the percentage of female readers.

What do you not understand...part of the new 52 initiative as well as DC specifically stated that was part of their initial drive...But that still doesn't change the fact that one of the key efforts of New 52 was the advancement of diversity...

Sorry, but no, it didn't. Again, that was one of the things it was criticized for: it's lack of diversity. The people in charge of the New 52 paid a lot of lip service and said they wanted to promote diversity, but the proof is in the pudding. If DC was so committed to diversity in the New 52, they would not have erased the only non-white character to hold the mantle of Batgirl in favor of a white woman who had long since moved on from that identity. And speaking of Barbara Gordon, they wouldn't have moved her back to being Batgirl when she was one of the few examples of a prominent character with a disability in comics before the New 52. They also wouldn't have erased the only female character to have been a Robin. They wouldn't have put the kibosh on the most prominent LGBTQ relationship at the time simply because editorial was grossed out at the possibility of a married superhero. They wouldn't have greenlit the decision to turn Wally West into a very stereotypical street kid who needed Barry Allen to "save" him. They wouldn't have erased Wally's Korean-American wife and his biracial children or the only Latina Aquagirl or the only black Aqualad or Alan Scott's LGBTQ son or any number of characters. And they sure as hell wouldn't have so horribly mismanaged the titles starring characters of color that you had writers running off those books.

You may not want to admit it, but the New 52 actually brought the DC Universe back to a status quo that hadn't been seen since maybe the early 80s. Think about it: Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl with no other Batgirls having ever existed; Superman and Lois's marriage erased and Lois being clueless about Clark being Superman; Barry Allen as the only person who had ever been the Flash; etc. In other words, the New 52 is what brought back a "classic" status quo, while the people you vilify as "classic fans" wanted it to remain what it had progressed to being since then.

(And no, the great ten doesn't count as that's a ensemble book, not a POC solo book...

An ensemble cast of characters who were all people of color. And the very concept of the book was that it was team made up of all Chinese heroes.

The fact that you're referring to the title versus the actual article when states that so far he's enjoying it clearly indicate you want to take away what you want, which is you're right. But it's not a general consensus that the bad outweighed the good. Some believe so, others do not...

You're the one who posted it. Also, I'd say that the fact that DC had to basically go on an apology tour for the New 52 shows that, yes, it was a consensus.

Wow, I shouldn't be surprised that someone would take American ordeals and put them as blanket viewpoints... Outside of the blockbuster movie, almost everything you listed is from an American perspective. Japan doesn't care about the Oscars. Japan doesn't care about Batman animated series, Japan doesn't even care about Batman's freaking comic books...

Dude. You're like 100% wrong. Going by the bare metrics, Batman still earns at least $8 billion more than One Piece does.

Also, I know he's not Japanese, but why don't you ask Bong Joon-ho if he cares about his Oscars? Or maybe ask Guillermo del Toro if he cares about his? Or what about Alfonso Cuarón? If anything, I'd say this past year especially has shown that, yes, the Oscars are looked at as a worldwide, international cultural symbol and not just an American cultural symbol. That's partly because cinema is not just an American thing. So, yeah, it does matter that Batman films have actually won Oscars.

Also, why are you assuming that the Japanese public is unable to consume American media when there is nothing but evidence to the contrary? Or even that they don't consume American media the way that some Americans consume Japanese media? Heck, the very fact that My Hero Academia exists and Goku is a rip off of Superman shows that yes, Japanese people consume superhero media. There's also the fact that Batman has actually had several anime adaptations like Batman: Gotham Knight and Batman Ninja. So, yes, the Japanese public obviously knows who Batman is.

Also, again I'm sorry, but no, One Piece does not have more of a cultural impact than Batman. The blockbuster films alone speak to that since a One Piece film has never earned more than around $10 million. The Dark Knight alone made 100X that. That's not because Batman is inherently superior but it is because Batman has been around much, much longer, has built up a mythology that's universally recognizable, and in that time has reached many, many more people. Also, the very fact that Batman is owned not by a specific person but a corporation helps ensure the longevity of the property. If One Piece is around in 80 years, maybe then it can be considered a cultural icon the same way Batman is, but it's not even remotely there yet.

With that said, the point still stands. Mange clearly indicates that Lore is not necessary for a story to be good. A good story is necessary for a good story to be good. Manga continues to come up with brand new stories that has no 30+ year long history and continues to dominate comics in terms of sales. Storytelling is just that, storytelling.

Lol. Now, who's reading things that aren't there? I never said lore was necessary for a good story. What I said is that its the lore of Batman that contributes to his longevity and that makes him universally recognized as the cultural symbol he is and that keeps him going. People know the Joker is Batman's archenemy. They know who Robin is. They know who Alfred is. The building blocks of Batman's world are well-known and that's part of what people love about him and what draws new fans in. Batman is the old friend who you know.

And I'll just repeat myself

Again, if it was successful, then why did it drop to below 19k under his run?

[leo619]

Again, you're free to search for them yourself. They're out there....

Sure dude, whatever you say.

No, I'd say its a clear example of poor argument. When you say things like "the New 52 laid the foundation to bring in writers of color" it sounds like you actually think that writers of color weren't there before. As several posters including myself and skyvolt have said, the foundation was already there. DC had a pool of diverse talent it could call upon. The New 52 was not necessary. It's also giving the New 52 way too much credit as one of the things that people actually criticized the reboot for was its lack of diversity in terms of both characters and talent. And again, this is just another example of vilifying "classic fans" as you call them without actually paying attention to anything that they say.

You can say that all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it is true. Before New 52, there wasn't any POC writers writing during that period of time. That was a fact. New 52 changed, that, not only that, but going forward you started to see more POC writers from both Marvel and DC, not less. That's a fact. And you will probably try to say "Oh well what high profile book are they on" to try and move the goal post. But that was never the point, the point was to get POC writers a better foot in the door to begin with, again the foundation, and New 52 helped establish that foundation to where we are now sitting at today.

And please, get out of here with "classic fans" clamoring for Milestone Characters. Funny enough, this was EXACTLY one of the comments Dwayne McDuffie talked about when he introduced Milestone while writing Justice League, saying that the readers were saying these characters were being forced down their throats. So you can stop that load of hogwash right there, because the source "Dwayne McDuffie" already discussed about that.

LOL, you do realize that if those numbers are from 2012, you have really no evidence linking the New 52 to an increase in female readership, correct? You are literally just assuming and have no evidence to back up your point. In fact, if those numbers from 2012 (a year after the relaunch) are correct, then that means that the New 52 actually decreased the percentage of female readers.

Um, you do know that just because one is labeled 2011 and the other is labeled 2012 doesn't mean it's a year right. (which in this case, the poll appears to be taken around 6 months from the launch.) Secondly, The Panel where Dwayne McDuffie, Gail Simone, Jai Nitz, Stuart Moore and Gene Yang and more gave the information in 2009, around 2 years before new 52 began. So it's not like it had 88 percent all the way up until New 52 hit, and then suddenly jumped up to 92%. Who knows when it rose to 92%. But ultimately, during the height of New 52, the women demographic skyrocketed to almost 30% of the readership in 2014. You can say there's no evidence and don't believe New 52 had anything to do with it, and I believe the new 52 definitely helped usher in this new demographic because that was one of New 52's essential goals. And nothing you say will change that.

Sorry, but no, it didn't. Again, that was one of the things it was criticized for: it's lack of diversity. The people in charge of the New 52 paid a lot of lip service and said they wanted to promote diversity, but the proof is in the pudding. If DC was so committed to diversity in the New 52, they would not have erased the only non-white character to hold the mantle of Batgirl in favor of a white woman who had long since moved on from that identity. And speaking of Barbara Gordon, they wouldn't have moved her back to being Batgirl when she was one of the few examples of a prominent character with a disability in comics before the New 52. They also wouldn't have erased the only female character to have been a Robin. They wouldn't have put the kibosh on the most prominent LGBTQ relationship at the time simply because editorial was grossed out at the possibility of a married superhero. They wouldn't have greenlit the decision to turn Wally West into a very stereotypical street kid who needed Barry Allen to "save" him. They wouldn't have erased Wally's Korean-American wife and his biracial children or the only Latina Aquagirl or the only black Aqualad or Alan Scott's LGBTQ son or any number of characters. And they sure as hell wouldn't have so horribly mismanaged the titles starring characters of color that you had writers running off those books.

And we will continue to dance this dance until the end of days. The new 52 ideas was to advance in diversity, and for that it helped established it's foundation. It's execution is the part where it flawed in. You can keep bringing up your list of people who were wiped out, even with some of it being incorrect, and I'll keep bringing out m list of people they brought in, but in the end of the day, the new 52 ideas help established bringing POC solo series, something that was desperately needing especially in DC. And don't get it twisted, the only classic fans that I "vilify" are the ones like you and others who continue to tell new 52 fans that they're wrong or horrible for enjoying new 52, and that new 52 is horrible. And we'll keep doing this dance until the end of days until you allow people to enjoy what they wish to enjoy.

Dude. You're like 100% wrong. Going by the bare metrics, Batman still earns at least $8 billion more than One Piece does.

Also, I know he's not Japanese, but why don't you ask Bong Joon-ho if he cares about his Oscars? Or maybe ask Guillermo del Toro if he cares about his? Or what about Alfonso Cuarón? If anything, I'd say this past year especially has shown that, yes, the Oscars are looked at as a worldwide, international cultural symbol and not just an American cultural symbol. So, yeah, it kinda does matter that Batman films have actually won Oscars.

Also, why are you assuming that the Japanese public is unable to consume American media when there is nothing but evidence to the contrary? Or even that they don't consume American media the way that some Americans consume Japanese media? Heck, the very fact that My Hero Academia is a thing shows that yes, Japanese people consume superhero media. There's also the fact that Batman has actually had several anime adaptations like Batman: Gotham Knight and Batman Ninja. So, yes, the Japanese public obviously knows who Batman is.

Also, again I'm sorry, but no, One Piece does not have more of a cultural impact than Batman. The blockbuster films alone speak to that since a One Piece film has never earned more than around $10 million. That's not because Batman is inherently superior but it is because Batman has been around much, much longer, has built up a mythology that's almost universally recognizable, and in that time has reached many, many more people. Also, the very fact that Batman is owned not by a specific person but a corporation helps ensure the longevity of the property. If One Piece is around in 80 years, maybe then it can be considered a cultural icon the same way Batman is, but it's not even remotely there yet.

Spoken like a American who think his perspective his the only perspective. You're wrong, period. I lived in Japan for 5 years, stayed in Saitama for 3, worked in Roppongi, and the fact is in Japan One Piece has way more of a cultural impact than batman. Period. Nof if's, and's or buts about it. You can try to debate about how batman one billions of dollars in the box office, just like how one piece has made billions of dollars from it's manga's, but that doesn't change the fact that in Japan, it's one piece that has bigger cultural impact, not batman. You go in Japanese train stations, you see one piece advertisements. You go to vending machines, you see one piece toys. Which once again reflects my point, cultural impact is based upon the impact of that property in that particular country. To place a blanket statement of "I"m American and therefore my property is the most important property" reeks of xenophobia.

Lol. Now, who's reading things that aren't there? I never said lore was necessary for a good story. What I said is that its the lore of Batman that contributes to his longevity and that makes him universally recognized as the cultural symbol he is and that keeps him going. People know the Joker is Batman's archenemy. They know who Robin is. They know who Alfred is. The building blocks of Batman's world are well-known and that's part of what people love about him and what draws new fans in. Batman is the old friend who you know.

You specifically referenced that Cyborg failed because of the fact that he no longer had the lore from his titans history. So yes, you did say Lore was necessary for a good story. The purpose of introducing manga clearly reflects the fact that lore is NOT necessary in order to make a good story. Lore helps makes a character recognizable if that character has a lot of history, but it is NOT necessary to tell a good story.

Again, if it was successful, then why did it drop to below 19k under his run?

It was successful enough to keep making the series, hence it was successful. Many series running today are running at a pale comparison to what they started with their first issue, that doesn't change the fact that their successful enough to keep the lights on. Not everything is a blockbuster, (nor is anything a blockbuster currently, but that's a different story.)

[manwhohaseverything]

As if cultural impact helps sales of comics. It doesn't. Even in that regards manga's are far outgrowing anything comics has to offer. Soon will replace in that regards too.Because people can actually get into the source material. In japan, one piece is bigger than anything there is no comparison. Batman or no batman . As for taking inspiration from comic, it only happens in superhero mangas.That too, they actually do justice to the likes of superman when the parent company itself doesn't . My hero academia does more justice to superman than anything dc can muster. Furthermore, goku is also inspired by sunwukong. He has nothing in common with current popculture "classic" superman. He isn't a ripoff.

Oscar is viewed as an award largely for american movies by the rest of the world. Anime movies that aren't from studio ghibli usually gets snubbed at oscars for the likes of "the boss baby" . This isn't just limited to anime. Many great live action movies produced elsewhere do in favour of the american ones. The oscars is an American dominated affair. It always has been. Don't try to play it of as some global awards ceremony.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You can say that all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it is true. Before New 52, there wasn't any POC writers writing during that period of time. That was a fact. New 52 changed, that, not only that, but going forward you started to see more POC writers from both Marvel and DC, not less. That's a fact. And you will probably try to say "Oh well what high profile book are they on" to try and move the goal post. But that was never the point, the point was to get POC writers a better foot in the door to begin with, again the foundation, and New 52 helped establish that foundation to where we are now sitting at today.

I don't see many writers of color working at DC right now. I count maybe two at most. The highest-profile one that was there just recently wrapped up his Deathstroke run. Also, he came back to DC with Rebirth, not New 52. I also didn't count many during the New 52 era. Maybe three at most. And it is not moving the goal post to ask what high-profile titles they're working on. If we really want to make it easier for writers and artists of color to get work at DC, we have to ask if they are being entrusted with key properties.

And please, get out of here with "classic fans" clamoring for Milestone Characters. Funny enough, this was EXACTLY one of the comments Dwayne McDuffie talked about when he introduced Milestone while writing Justice League, saying that the readers were saying these characters were being forced down their throats. So you can stop that load of hogwash right there, because the source "Dwayne McDuffie" already discussed about that.

Well I've seen nothing but support for Milestone characters coming back. So it's not hogwash. It just sucks that the New 52 Static series left such a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Um, you do know that just because one is labeled 2011 and the other is labeled 2012 doesn't mean it's a year right. (which in this case, the poll appears to be taken around 6 months from the launch.) Secondly, The Panel where Dwayne McDuffie, Gail Simone, Jai Nitz, Stuart Moore and Gene Yang and more gave the information in 2009, around 2 years before new 52 began. So it's not like it had 88 percent all the way up until New 52 hit, and then suddenly jumped up to 92%. Who knows when it rose to 92%. But ultimately, during the height of New 52, the women demographic skyrocketed to almost 30% of the readership in 2014. You can say there's no evidence and don't believe New 52 had anything to do with it, and I believe the new 52 definitely helped usher in this new demographic because that was one of New 52's essential goals. And nothing you say will change that.

Lol. So, its only evidence when it fits your narrative, huh? You can try to deny that all you want, but there is no evidence that New 52 led to an increase in female readership and the data showing said increase came after Rebirth.

And we will continue to dance this dance until the end of days. The new 52 ideas was to advance in diversity, and for that it helped established it's foundation. It's execution is the part where it flawed in. You can keep bringing up your list of people who were wiped out, even with some of it being incorrect, and I'll keep bringing out m list of people they brought in, but in the end of the day, the new 52 ideas help established bringing POC solo series, something that was desperately needing especially in DC. And don't get it twisted, the only classic fans that I "vilify" are the ones like you and others who continue to tell new 52 fans that they're wrong or horrible for enjoying new 52, and that new 52 is horrible. And we'll keep doing this dance until the end of days until you allow people to enjoy what they wish to enjoy.

In other words, you don't have a response because, in the end, they did erase more characters of color than the New 52 created...

And you can keep saying that it helped establish solo POC series, but none of those series lasted long. Some of them didn't even make it to 10 issues.

And I haven't called anyone horrible for liking anything. I've pointed out the flaws with the New 52. And there were plenty to point out. I've seen plenty of mudslinging and mischaracterization from you, though.

Spoken like a American who think his perspective his the only perspective. You're wrong, period. I lived in Japan for 5 years, stayed in Saitama for 3, worked in Roppongi, and the fact is in Japan One Piece has way more of a cultural impact than batman. Period. Nof if's, and's or buts about it. You can try to debate about how batman one billions of dollars in the box office, just like how one piece has made billions of dollars from it's manga's, but that doesn't change the fact that in Japan, it's one piece that has bigger cultural impact, not batman. You go in Japanese train stations, you see one piece advertisements. You go to vending machines, you see one piece toys. Which once again reflects my point, cultural impact is based upon the impact of that property in that particular country. To place a blanket statement of "I"m American and therefore my property is the most important property" reeks of xenophobia.

I'm sorry your argument doesn't hold up. Again, the proof is in dollars. More people go to the movies than read manga. Batman films make billions worldwide while no One Piece movie has ever made close to that amount. At all. And to say that it makes billions from manga is a little generous. One Piece makes about $26 million per year from everything. One Joker film makes over $1 billion in about a month. Add to that all of the comics sales, animated films, animated series, merchandise, etc. You do the math on that.

And of course One Piece is incredibly popular in Japan. However, if you go to Hungary or India or Kenya, they will probably know who Batman is over any character from One Piece. That is not inherently because Batman is American. It's because Batman has been around for about 60 years longer than One Piece has and has permeated the global culture in a way that One Piece has not. Batman is a symbol that is universally recognized. Again, I'm pretty sure nobody in my family except for me knows who Monkey D. Luffy is. I'm sorry you do not like that fact, but it is a fact.

Also, you keep using the word "xenophobia" incorrectly. I feel like I should at least point that out, especially since I'm first-generation American and have experienced actual xenophobia.

You specifically referenced that Cyborg failed because of the fact that he no longer had the lore from his titans history. So yes, you did say Lore was necessary for a good story. The purpose of introducing manga clearly reflects the fact that lore is NOT necessary in order to make a good story. Lore helps makes a character recognizable if that character has a lot of history, but it is NOT necessary to tell a good story.

Yes, and characters like Batman and Cyborg have a lot of history. And that's how people know Cyborg: as a Titan. He has been marketed as a Titan in outside media since the early 1980s. He appeared in the popular Teen Titans animated series. He's a Titan in Teen Titans Go. He's in Young Justice Outsiders. Heck, DC even recently released another animated movie featuring him as a Titan. The one and only major media appearance where he was a League member was a gargantuan failure from which WB has distanced itself.

It was successful enough to keep making the series, hence it was successful. Many series running today are running at a pale comparison to what they started with their first issue, that doesn't change the fact that their successful enough to keep the lights on. Not everything is a blockbuster, (nor is anything a blockbuster currently, but that's a different story.)

That series only lasted a few months. By its seventh issue, its sales were in the gutter. That does not make a successful series.

[iron chimp]

Please point out where I have a problem with people's buying habits. Just because there's clear categories that illustrate different schools of readers doesn't mean I have a problem with certain schools. On the other hand, you've been trying to paint a false narrative on me from the beginning. Must mean I struck a nerve because I pointed out some traits for some classic readers like yourself, Zeeway, Vampire_Savior and more like to tell new readers that the things they enjoy are horrible or wrong . Again, your problem, not mine.




And thank you for proving my point exactly. Nothing more needs to be said.

30 years ago people were buying books about black.kids as canon fodder in a corporate - military hell future which proved very prescient as the body count in africa climbed up as global companies, african war lords and worlds governments up the ante to seize control of africas resources so that kids have got the rare minerals for their phones so they can log in to the richest man in the worlds computer to buy their comics whilst being told they are at forefront of a new dawn because they bought a comic about a kid punching an octopus.

Did t touch a nerve. Did mske me laugh though that this exciting 'new reader' gets all worked up about cyborgs belt buckle or some nonsense whilst a book about a real man will balls of steel going up against the klan is left on the shelves ...

You got played so badly

[Rise]

@Zeeguy91

I'm sorry your argument doesn't hold up. Again, the proof is in dollars

If we are talking about revenue, Jump Comics has a revenue of $40B (and that's not counting merch and tv revenue). This more than MCU and its billions of dollars movies, let alone Batman and DC as a whole.

Batman for sure is far more known than Luffy worldwide and there is no doubt about that, but manga characters aren't far behind despite being decades younger than Batman and Superman. Conan for example (Detective Conan) is extermly popular and beloved figure in my region and almost as known as Batman. I would even say Pokemon has more of cultural impact than Batman worldwide.

Also, the dollar argument is pointless if you are discussing cultural impact worldwide because Star Wars for example has a bigger revenue than MCU, Batman, Superman...etc. Still, it doesn't have much of cultural impact outside of America except for few countries and people in my country don't even know Luke, Yoda and Vader or even care.