How do you rate Dan Didio's tenure at DC Comics?

[leo619]

You keep painting people with the same brush of "classic fan" as a way to discredit them and/or not take their opinions seriously instead of just admitting that, sometimes, DC has bad ideas. And you're using an instance that, for the most part, was pretty unrelated to try and insinuate that people who were opposed to the New 52 were prejudiced or unwelcoming of minorities. Again, I can assure you that many Milestone fans hated the New 52 for what it did to Milestone characters, specifically Static.

No, I paint classic fans with a brush because I know classic fans often have a different viewpoint and interests than new fans do, which is something many classic fans cannot do (which is again, clearly evident in your post with you unable to reflect that people can think that New 52 had good ideas and be okay with it.) Secondly, my post regarding classic fans having an issue with milestones (which again Dwayne McDuffie himself commented on) has very little to do with New 52, but with classic fans as a whole. You're the only one trying to create that parallel, it's like you can't understand that someone can be a classic fan and have no affiliation with new 52 at all, like Marvel doesn't have Classic Fans.

LOL. The proof is in the pudding. There were more diverse characters before the New 52 than there were after. That's a fact. You can try and dance around that all you want, but it isn't going to automatically make your point true. Also, you keep saying these characters were in limbo. They weren't. They were around. We saw them and read about them and then after the New 52, they were gone all of a sudden.

And our definition of diversity is not taking the most prominent character with a disability and forcing her back into being Batgirl because that was the "classic status quo" Dan Didio grew up with. Our definition of diversity is not erasing the only Asian Batgirl to ever exist or the only female Robin.

And again, how long did those solo series last? How well were they managed? Did Marc Bernardin not have to quit Static because of all the editorial mismanagement? Are Voodoo, Mr. Terrific, and Jaime Reyes still headlining their own solo series? And I bought every issue of Jaime's New 52 series. But guess what...his Pre-Flashpoint solo series was much better (and is remembered as such) and lasted longer.

Also, I've brought up examples of POC titles that existed before Flashpoint, which you then dismissed because they were "ensemble books." Talk about moving goalposts...

Sure dude, keep believing that false information as factual information all you want, that doesn't hold any water for me. You keep bringing examples of execution to try and hide the point that the ideas was the concept I was stating New 52 was issuing in regards to diversity, and that they succeeded on. I "specifically" called out POC Solo Titles as an prime example of their diversity push, it's not my fault you're so focused on arguing that you can't understand the original points I made and then make false assumptions of moving the goalpost when you can't even stick on the original topic to begin with.

But the New 52 completely bungled it, is the point, because the reboot made a mess of everything. When you erase your entire universe, that tends to happen. It also, again, erased more characters of diversity than it created. If they were really interested in creating diversity, they could have, I dunno, launched solo series for Cassandra Cain or Connor Hawke or Icon. You know, established characters that people actually liked. However, they decided to either completely erase those characters or downplay them to the point of irrelevance. They also decided it would be better to turn Wally West into a stereotype to act as a prop in Barry Allen's white savior story. Tell me more about how that was a good move...

And Marvel did not receive the same backlash. Know how I know? Because Marvel didn't have to retcon Miles into being a completely separate character from the one he was introduced to be. Also, Miles is now a huge success. Can we say the same for NuWally?

You clearly do not know what you're talking about, because if you did, you'd know that during the initial Miles Morales release that the CBR receives threads with thousands of posts trying to trash Miles Morales before even the first issue appeared. It was so bad that the Ultimates Section of the thread got shut down temporarily to clean up all of the trolls coming in just to create accounts and trash Miles Morales. I was right in the thick of it, so I definitely remember the situation. But all of that got shut down because unlike DC, Marvel actually put the quality behind the book. Though that could be why DC higher Bendis, as we're already starting to see his successes with the series Naomi. So as I mentioned before, the same backlash DC received from New 52, Marvel got from Miles Morales, Mighty Thor, Wolverine, and ANAD in general. The main difference was that marvel on most counts were able to put out high quality books to shut up the classic fans talking trash about the characters. DC put out great ideas and then on most occasions tripped within the first few steps of the race.

It was a hard time to be a DC fan. The confusing timeline, the constant stories of editorial mismanagement, the behind-the-scenes clashes, writers being fired and then rehired and fired again, writers being announced on books and then quickly pulled off of those books before their very first issues had dropped, etc. That is a bad time to be a fan, whether you started with the New 52 or had been reading DC for 50 years.

It clearly "wasn't" a hard time to be a DC fan for some, and not others. That's the entire point, you're ignoring the fact that there have been people who clearly enjoyed the time of New 52, and thus it wasn't a hard time to be a DC fan for them. Continuously people keep responding to you and telling you that they enjoyed New 52 just so you can get it through your head that there are those that enjoyed New 52, and their opinion matters too. That doesn't mean some of the problems of New 52 didn't exist, as mentioned before, many will conclude that the execution was flawed on many occasions. But there were also gems under the New 52 and there were also some great ideas under New 52.

Lol. Okay, that series itself lasted a year. But only a year. And then, with the relaunch (with a new writer, by the way), it still performed badly in sales. How many times does that need to be explained to you? If a series is selling 18k or 15k or less a month, that's not a successful series. That's a series that's barely breaking even.

You can explain it 2 million times, it doesn't change the fact that we have different degrees on what's considered a success. You believe a series that sells below a certain amount is a failure. I believe a POC solo book that can last longer than a year, especially a POC Solo series which regularly have more difficulties, is a success.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

No, I paint classic fans with a brush because I know classic fans often have a different viewpoint and interests than new fans do, which is something many classic fans cannot do (which is again, clearly evident in your post with you unable to reflect that people can think that New 52 had good ideas and be okay with it.) Secondly, my post regarding classic fans having an issue with milestones (which again Dwayne McDuffie himself commented on) has very little to do with New 52, but with classic fans as a whole. You're the only one trying to create that parallel, it's like you can't understand that someone can be a classic fan and have no affiliation with new 52 at all, like Marvel doesn't have Classic Fans.

No, you vilify classic fans because you think it makes your point valid. It doesn't, by the way.

And have I not said that the New 52 even had some good series? Pretty sure I did. However, a lot of it was still very, very bad. I'm pretty sure that's evidenced by the fact that they've had to reverse a lot of it.

Sure dude, keep believing that false information as factual information all you want, that doesn't hold any water for me. You keep bringing examples of execution to try and hide the point that the ideas was the concept I was stating New 52 was issuing in regards to diversity, and that they succeeded on. I "specifically" called out POC Solo Titles as an prime example of their diversity push, it's not my fault you're so focused on arguing that you can't understand the original points I made and then make false assumptions of moving the goalpost when you can't even stick on the original topic to begin with.

Translation: you know you can't refute the point that, yes, it did erase more diverse characters than it created, so you choose to either ignore that or move the goalpost.

Again, the series you're referring to were so horribly mismanaged (largely because a lot of their backstory was butchered by the reboot) that a majority of them were canceled within 12 issues and those characters were forced back into limbo. That is not progress. That is just back to square one.

Meanwhile, we couldn't even see some of the more established and fan-favorite characters of color in the DCU like, again, Cassandra Cain and Connor Hawke because "Oh no, you can't have a Batgirl who's not Barbara Gordon because that's who Dan Didio wants as Batgirl" and "Ollie can't have a grown son. That makes him too ooooooooollllld. I mean, any character who has kids might as well be dead, right? We all know life ends after 30." See? That was the destructive idea behind the New 52: the idea to dial back all of the progression and development that had happened in the DC Universe since like the 1970s. And that's something you have still not addressed, which is why I keep bringing it up.

Again, I just want to pose you this question: do you want actual diversity and inclusion or just the false promise of it? Because, yes, we got a few POC solo series but again, none of them lasted long and none of the proper care or marketing was put into them. And let's be honest, are you actually going to recommend the New 52 volume of Static as a good place to start with that character? I don't think anyone could say it is. At the same time, they chose to erase one of the few non-white members of the Bat-family who had a built-in fanbase because they wanted a red-haired white woman to go back to being the only Batgirl in existence. That tells you all you need to know.

You clearly do not know what you're talking about, because if you did, you'd know that during the initial Miles Morales release that the CBR receives threads with thousands of posts trying to trash Miles Morales before even the first issue appeared. It was so bad that the Ultimates Section of the thread got shut down temporarily to clean up all of the trolls coming in just to create accounts and trash Miles Morales. I was right in the thick of it, so I definitely remember the situation. But all of that got shut down because unlike DC, Marvel actually put the quality behind the book. Though that could be why DC higher Bendis, as we're already starting to see his successes with the series Naomi. So as I mentioned before, the same backlash DC received from New 52, Marvel got from Miles Morales, Mighty Thor, Wolverine, and ANAD in general. The main difference was that marvel on most counts were able to put out high quality books to shut up the classic fans talking trash about the characters. DC put out great ideas and then on most occasions tripped within the first few steps of the race.

LOL. I know there was a backlash to Miles at first. I was around for that too. First of all, though, that was the CBR forums. I wouldn't say that was necessarily reflective of the general consensus. Secondly, it did eventually die down and people accepted Miles for the awesome character he is. A large part of that was because he was created as his own person, not a rebooted version of Peter that overrode the previous iteration of Peter who fans loved. Within a few years, Miles was able to get so popular that he was brought into the main Marvel Universe and was given an animated movie that went on to win the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature. I play that movie almost on a loop on Netflix in my apartment.

Contrast that with NuWally, who was introduced as a completely rebooted version of Wally West, a vastly popular and fan-favorite character who defined the Flash for an entire generation of fans. Add to that the fact that, unlike Miles, NuWally's portrayal in the New 52 Flash comic was incredibly problematic, painting him as a stereotype all so Barry could be the white savior that shows him a better way. So yeah...Needless to say, the backlash to that was also intense (I was there for that too). Some of the backlashes, yes, were from people who were opposed to diversity. However, a lot of it was also from people who just loved Wally and who were also very angered that this was how DC chose to portray a young black man in 2014: a blatant stereotype and a "cause" for the white protagonist.

People have now started to accept him but that's only after years of rehabilitation done on the character and the reintroduction of Wally West. So, again, tell me how that was a good idea.

It clearly "wasn't" a hard time to be a DC fan for some, and not others. That's the entire point, you're ignoring the fact that there have been people who clearly enjoyed the time of New 52, and thus it wasn't a hard time to be a DC fan for them. Continuously people keep responding to you and telling you that they enjoyed New 52 just so you can get it through your head that there are those that enjoyed New 52, and their opinion matters too. That doesn't mean some of the problems of New 52 didn't exist, as mentioned before, many will conclude that the execution was flawed on many occasions. But there were also gems under the New 52 and there were also some great ideas under New 52.

Well, again, I'd say to those people that they should have been more concerned with the behind-the-scenes mismanagement and paid more attention to that. That stuff is objectively bad for the company and probably one of the reasons why DC doesn't really have as much clout as it used to. I mean, we just had a widely-circulated rumor that DC might close its doors that, even despite its obvious unreliability, a lot of people actually bought.

Ask yourself: do you think fans would have believed that rumor if it was about Marvel? Probably not. And that's likely because DC, for several years, has had very bad management that has damaged their reputation among fans. And yes, that includes the management and the ideas that went into the New 52. I mean, I'm sure there are some people who were fans of what Marvel was pushing in the late 90s right before they declared bankruptcy but still...

You can explain it 2 million times, it doesn't change the fact that we have different degrees on what's considered a success. You believe a series that sells below a certain amount is a failure. I believe a POC solo book that can last longer than a year, especially a POC Solo series which regularly have more difficulties, is a success.

Well except the stuff that I judge a series by is the stuff that matters for a book to last long: i.e. if the book sells and/or finds a sustainable audience. Cyborg's book never did. And that's because he's a team character, like Cyclops or Storm or Martian Manhunter. They've had solos before too, but their most important appearances have always been as members of certain teams. There's nothing wrong with that. For Cyborg, it's the Titans.

[skyvolt2000]

People HATED Miles Morales from day one. It never got to the level of death threats Dan Slott got for Dr Octopus as Spider-man but it was up there.

Why it went away-the quality of Miles book and the fact he stayed in his own book for that entire series. While he replaced a version of Peter-he didn't erase THE Peter Parker.

Wallace was meant to be Wally West and that add fuel to the fire for Wally fans and attracted early versions of "gators". It didn't help the writing of him was horrible. A trend that continued into Rebirth with Wallace being referred as Damian's bytch in Teen Titans. While the Rebirth Flash book did damage control, Priest came and did more to help Wallace than anyone. Now we have a "decent" Wallace running around.

As for POC lead solos-far too many had behind the scenes nonsense that derailed the books. Funny the main ones who had that done to them were guys considered the top of the black hero food chain-Black Lightning, Static, John Stewart, Cyborg & Jason Rusch.

Well except the stuff that I judge a series by is the stuff that matters for a book to last long: i.e. if the book sells and/or finds a sustainable audience. Cyborg's book never did. And that's because he's a team character, like Cyclops or Storm or Martian Manhunter.

It's hard to find an audience when the books you come from didn't build you up. That has been the issue with Cyborg and Storm.

Manhunter has 5 volumes. That is not by accident. Look at how much stuff he has been in where he played a meaty role and got development.

Cyborg has not had that.

Now I am not going to call him a failure for having 30+ solo issues and 2 volumes. Antman was the same and how has that worked out? Static had 44 solo issues and he has a tv show before a LOT of guys who have dominated comics.
Black Panther was like that as was Carol Danvers. Funny how finding someone willing to work on those guys work out. Cyborg needs that.

[Jackalope89]

I want to read a DC Universe where all the stories count and where the legacy matters. So yes, I would like Luthor's time as President to count, just as I want all stories to count.

Problem here is, a good number of stories directly contradict one another. Like Jason Todd. His pre-Crisis origin, he was basically blonde Dick Grayson. After CoIE, he was a street kid caught steeling Batman's tires. Which makes Morrison's run on DickBats rather jarring when Jason was involved.

I'm not against legacy at all, but rather than saying, "it all counts", how about taking what worked best counts?

[Rod G]

Problem here is, a good number of stories directly contradict one another. Like Jason Todd. His pre-Crisis origin, he was basically blonde Dick Grayson. After CoIE, he was a street kid caught steeling Batman's tires. Which makes Morrison's run on DickBats rather jarring when Jason was involved.

I'm not against legacy at all, but rather than saying, "it all counts", how about taking what worked best counts?

Yep.

That would work best.

[Ascended]

Problem here is, a good number of stories directly contradict one another. Like Jason Todd. His pre-Crisis origin, he was basically blonde Dick Grayson. After CoIE, he was a street kid caught steeling Batman's tires. Which makes Morrison's run on DickBats rather jarring when Jason was involved.

I'm not against legacy at all, but rather than saying, "it all counts", how about taking what worked best counts?

I'm of the mind that, if possible, everything should count. All the crap stories we hated as well as the ones we loved, everything happened (it just never has to be mentioned again). But in instances where there's a conflict between continuity, like with Jason Todd, in those cases you pick whichever version was the most popular and functioned best, and go with that.

So with Jason, go with his "stole the tires" post-Crisis origin and forget "blonde Dick Grayson." But a bad story like Superman's Grounded? There's no point in reminding fans about that story, just to tell them they can pretend it didn't happen, when they're already trying to forget it. So assume it's in continuity and just never talk about it again (unless a writer wants to use one of Chris Roberson's cool ideas that he introduced when he took over).

[Menacer]

I'm of the mind that, if possible, everything should count. All the crap stories we hated as well as the ones we loved, everything happened (it just never has to be mentioned again). But in instances where there's a conflict between continuity, like with Jason Todd, in those cases you pick whichever version was the most popular and functioned best, and go with that.

So with Jason, go with his "stole the tires" post-Crisis origin and forget "blonde Dick Grayson." But a bad story like Superman's Grounded? There's no point in reminding fans about that story, just to tell them they can pretend it didn't happen, when they're already trying to forget it. So assume it's in continuity and just never talk about it again (unless a writer wants to use one of Chris Roberson's cool ideas that he introduced when he took over).

Yah but this is how continuity already works...

Dc has often said they have a soft continuity...

Ie

Crisis on Infinite earth

Decades of stories are said to be merged into one timeline... many characters disappear for a time

Writers go to work telling stories over the next number of years reintroducing characters and referencing past story arcs... things get jumbled and multiple contradictory events exist... zero hour explains things away...

A type of reset but soft like the last, stories are referenced from the past and the fans rediscover which stories are effecting current stories..


The process repeats. Dc honestly has no choice but to operate this way unless they got uber facist and micromanaged the **** out of each writer... stifling creativity and hurting stories...

I mean honestly when I read books I'm not looking for the inconsistencies. I look for the parallel story points and ignore things that dont jive. If its really jarring then I simply accept that for this particular story this is what's important.

Yah it's better when it all lines up but with dozens and dozens of writers and stories being told there is no way to keep everything totally locked up...

I mean isnt this how dc continuity has operated for years?

I actually write my own comic book, which I wanna self publish one day, just for me.

When I'm working on issue 4 it can be impossible even in my own book to know what a character said or did in issue one. I have to reference issue 1 to know.


I cant imagine what trying to reference 40 years of comics is like with 20000 issues...

It's just not possible... even with really good data bases and search tools youd never know what 30 other writers had done with x y z character...

There can also just be one writer really hating what the last did to Robin and simply decide to retcon the character...

Sort of like how both jerry Seinfeld and George costanza originally had different fathers... in later episodes they changed the actors... it happens in all media... no explanation was given other then they wanted different performances...

Writers are no different. Dont like what was done in the last writers run, just write something new and dont give an explanation... if it works then the next event will wave a magic wand and If future writers like it they will reference it...

[Agent Z]

edited post. I think this is better off in another thread.

[John Venus]

Terrible.

-Didio and co were indecisive. Couldn't make up their damn minds about directions. Ideas change halfway through. The Nu52 being the height of this insanity.

-Way too much reliance on short term sales boost over long term investments. Shock, death, explicit content, darkness for the sake of darkness. Eventually made audiences apathetic about what happened to these characters. DC itself became more and more dependent on Batman for sales boosts (creating a fulfilling self prophecy) at the expense of building up other characters. Trying to fix what's not broken (Wonder Woman's origin, Barry Allen's death). Not enough effort made to rear up a new generation of readers by targeting kids and tweens. Too late on getting their stuff on a digital platform and by the time they tried to fix their mistakes, At&T's anti-matter wave damn near wiped out the entire editorial.

[Sacred Knight]

I'd argue Barry Allen's death was broken, in a sense. That sense being that he'd just been gone long damn enough. It wasn't fair to his fans, which were till aplenty, that he was literally the only classic hero who had to stay dead and gone. Their failure was to thoroughly still accommodate Wally with respect after his return. But that return itself was long overdue.

[Holt]