How do you rate Dan Didio's tenure at DC Comics?

[leo619]

Dude, you do know the criticisms for the lack of diversity continued well into the New 52, right? Your point might mean something if any of the POC character titles lasted long, but they didn't. Also, a lot of them were just bad and/or horribly mismanaged. Blue Beetle? Canceled. Mister Terrific? Awful and canceled. Voodoo? Canceled and quickly forgotten.

Again, I never stated New 52 was heaven for diversity, but most of the criticism for their diversity was based on the EXECUTION of said series, not the original ideas that help drive to push to diversity to begin with. Again, my quote

and New 52 creative ideas were doing a lot more with their diverse characters than before pre-52, but the most important thing was the push that New 52 help drive. Now that doesn't change the fact that the execution of these ideas were subpar in many cases, and that's why I said Marvel capitalize on DC's initial drive. New 52 had great ideas, but poor execution on certain books cause their initial pushes to drop. Marvel saw these flaws, and came out with ANAD which helped push Marvel into the successful state it is today (to where Ms.Marvel is now having a tv show as well as a main character in the avengers game) But overall, DC New 52 was the much needed push that helped drive the industry in the right direction.

Also, I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but the studies conducted actually showed that the New 52 didn't do much at all to attract new readers. This article summed up a lot of the issues with the New 52:

Um, the fact that the article attempted to blast DC attempts with diversity in New 52, and then talks about Rebirth, which was clearly a step backward in regards to diversity clearly reflects a problem, especially when they attempted to sample a poll based in 2012, instead of a much later market research in 2014 which clearly contradicts the 2012 poll.

https://www.comicsbeat.com/market-re...le-comic-fans/

Now of course, this is reflecting the comic book demographic as a whole, but this was at the height of New 52 as well as Marvel making new ground.

Also, in what world can we qualify what they did to Cyborg as a good thing? For a significant amount of time in the New 52, Cyborg was irrelevant because he didn't receive any character development in the Justice League title let alone outside of it. It even became an ongoing joke that he just sat in the Watchtower all the time while everyone else would go out and have lives. Not to mention that he served almost no purpose on the team aside from being a glorified taxi to transport them places via boom tube. Plus, even when they did try to give him his own solo title, it suffered from a lack of meaningful direction because the character no longer had a lore that grounded him in the DC Universe. At least when he was a Titan, he had important relationships and backstory and development and was actually one of the characters considered essential to the team.

We can also argue that the media adaptations of Cyborg as a Titan did 10X more for his popularity than any of the ones showing him as a member of the League. What is the most liked version that you see people celebrating? That would probably be the one from TTGo and/or the original TT animated series. That's...pretty sad when you consider that he was in an actual ******action movie as a member of the League.

Yeah, so, was it really a good thing to take Cyborg from being a core character in the Titans lore and one of the team's leaders to being irrelevant on the Justice League?? I don't think so.

Even if the intentions were well-meaning, the New 52 failed because a lot of the ideas were either wrongheaded or flat-out bad and failed to grasp the aspects of these characters that have made them endure for so long.

And again, you're referring to execution, which I have already indicated that much of the execution of New 52 was heavily flawed. But it still doesn't change the fact that the original ideas that push the minorities to the forefront helped pushed the market to where we are today (though again, with Marvel reaping more of the benefits since their execution actually matched the quality of their ideas)

Secondly, Cyborg's "titan's history and relationships" is not a diverse characteristic, that's a classic fan viewpoint. Cyborg's titan history and relationship has absolutely nothing to do with the type push and treatment he could have receive as a founding member of a big 7, (which for many of those that valued diversity, saw this change as a big plus originally) You go the cyborg appreciation thread, and you'll see those that valued his change to the big 7 were looking for key dynamics that was sadly not executed in new 52 (stop with the man vs machine stories, treat him like a valued member of the big 7 versus getting ripped up every 5 issues, explore different dynamics of Cyborg, etc) So Cyborg's execution was definitely lacking outside of a few select writers doing him justice, but that has nothing to do history.

As stated before, the problem wasn't that they weren't tied to what they were use to, the problem was bad execution/negligence.
This was further illustrated when the founder behind the titans book Marv Wolfman, who "supposedly" made him enduring, wrote one of the worst Cyborg arcs in his solo history. while Walker, who actually had purpose for the character, did the character justice during his time writing the book. The problem was that DC was filled with writers who either dislike the direction Cyborg was taking without his titans history, or didn't know what to do with the character now that he had no affiliation. They were just like "Okay, he's part of the Justice League, all done." As you can imagine, that caused quite a bit of problems.

So again, The New 52 helped ushered in new ideas that help changed the industry, but the new 52 was plague with problematic execution that prevented DC from retaining the success they performed with New 52. Something Marvel capitalize on.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Wallace was bad until they let an actual black writer use him (which is what they should’ve done with the New 52 in the first place but Lee and Harras gave jobs to their old buddies from Marvel, Image, and Wildstorm in the most blatant example of cronyism I’ve seen), but I thought Bunker was cool. What was wrong with him?

That's the point. At first, Wallace was presented as a stereotype and then only in Rebirth was he developed into a real character. Also, Bunker never really received any character development. He just...served no purpose.

Of the characters you listed only Cass could be considered above C-List, I mean Bloodwynd? Seriously? No one gives a **** about Bloodwynd lmao. And Cass was thoroughly ruined Pre-Flashpoint by all the crap Didio did to her, (remember she was evil in the most blatant example of character assassination they had to hand wave away with drugs which was even stupider) so it’s not like Pre-Flashpoint treated the DC PoC well. New 52 dropped the ball a lot in that regard, I didn’t like what they did with Mr. Terrific, but the intent was to make the DCU less lily white and that’s not a bad thing.

Bumblebee, Mal Duncan, and Anissa and Jennifer Pierce are below c-list when they are actually some of the few characters to make meaningful jumps to other media? Bumblebee and Mal were/are on the Young Justice animated series and the Pierce sisters are in the Black Lightning CW show. Maybe someone should've told DC that and maybe we wouldn't have seen them wiped out in the comics.

[Vordan]

That's the point. At first, Wallace was presented as a stereotype and then only in Rebirth was he developed into a real character. Also, Bunker never really received any character development. He just...served no purpose.



Bumblebee, Mal Duncan, and Anissa and Jennifer Pierce are below c-list when they are actually some of the few characters to make meaningful jumps to other media? Bumblebee and Mal were/are on the Young Justice animated series and the Pierce sisters are in the Black Lightning CW show. Maybe someone should've told DC that and maybe we wouldn't have seen them wiped out in the comics.

Most of those characters made the jump to outside media AFTER the New 52 though, don’t be disingenuous. At the time of the reboot they were complete unknowns to the general audience. Bumblebee was an utterly minor character on YJ, it’s only DC Superhero Girls which has really raised her profile. Same with the Pierce girls, before the TV show I doubt anyone could’ve told you who they were. I still don’t know who Mal Duncan is though, and those other guys you named, like Pantha? Event fodder at best, no one was buying a book for those guys. They were background fluff.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Again, I never stated New 52 was heaven for diversity, but most of the criticism for their diversity was based on the EXECUTION of said series, not the original ideas that help drive to push to diversity to begin with. Again, my quote

Well, it sucks that the ideas were also horrible. So...

Um, the fact that the article attempted to blast DC attempts with diversity in New 52, and then talks about Rebirth, which was clearly a step backward in regards to diversity clearly reflects a problem, especially when they attempted to sample a poll based in 2012, instead of a much later market research in 2014 which clearly contradicts the 2012 poll.

I've given the reasons why the New 52 was actually a step back in diversity. What are the reasons you're citing why Rebirth was a step back in that regard? I don't recall there being many writers or artists of color or female writers or artists during the New 52 era nor do I remember many POC characters getting any meaningful spotlight.

https://www.comicsbeat.com/market-re...le-comic-fans/

Now of course, this is reflecting the comic book demographic as a whole, but this was at the height of New 52 as well as Marvel making new ground.

You realize that nowhere in that post does the writer credit the New 52 with bringing in female readership, do you? In fact, it focuses more on what Marvel is doing to attract female readers than what the New 52 did.

And again, you're referring to execution, which I have already indicated that much of the execution of New 52 was heavily flawed. But it still doesn't change the fact that the original ideas that push the minorities to the forefront helped pushed the market to where we are today (though again, with Marvel reaping more of the benefits since their execution actually matched the quality of their ideas)

No, I think you're confusing ideas and intentions. The intention to push for representation and diversity is a good and much-needed thing, but the ideas they had to do so were godawful.

As stated before, the problem wasn't that they weren't tied to what they were use to, the problem was bad execution/negligence.
This was further illustrated when the founder behind the titans book Marv Wolfman, who "supposedly" made him enduring, wrote one of the worst Cyborg arcs in his solo history. while Walker, who actually had purpose for the character, did the character justice during his time writing the book.

Really? Because, no offense to Walker, but I don't remember his run being very highly regarded or any of his contributions to the character receiving widespread recognition. Also, what "solo history." Cyborg only had a solo for like 5 years.

Also, lemme guess: you've never actually read any of the New Teen Titans run, have you?

The problem was that DC was filled with writers who either dislike the direction Cyborg was taking without his Titans history, or didn't know what to do with the character now that he had no affiliation. They were just like "Okay, he's part of the Justice League, all done." As you can imagine, that caused quite a bit of problems.

That's the point and the reason why Cyborg as a solo hero never gained traction with either writers or artists. Readers are attracted to characters with an actual lore behind them. Why do people read Superman or Batman or Spider-Man? Because there's a cast of characters and a series of relationships and dynamics that are part of a larger mythos. That is what retains fans and gives writers ideas of where to take a character or even create new characters. For example, Damian Wayne being introduced as the son of Bruce Wayne and Talia al Ghul loses all impact unless you have an established relationship between Bruce and Talia.

For Cyborg, his lore was the Titans. Those were his relationships. That was his mythos. So without those dynamics and backstory being a part of his character, there wasn't enough there to generate long-term interest.

So again, The New 52 helped ushered in new ideas that help changed the industry, but the new 52 was plague with problematic execution that prevented DC from retaining the success they performed with New 52. Something Marvel capitalize on.

No, Marvel capitalized on the fact that the New 52 was inherently flawed because of some of the ideas behind it, like the confused continuity and the bungled character directions. Marvel just came along and actually did it right. That's what they capitalized on.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Most of those characters made the jump to outside media AFTER the New 52 though, don’t be disingenuous. At the time of the reboot they were complete unknowns to the general audience. Bumblebee was an utterly minor character on YJ, it’s only DC Superhero Girls which has really raised her profile. Same with the Pierce girls, before the TV show I doubt anyone could’ve told you who they were. I still don’t know who Mal Duncan is though, and those other guys you named, like Pantha? Event fodder at best, no one was buying a book for those guys. They were background fluff.

The Young Justice TV series was in planning well before the New 52. It came out in 2010. Plus, Bumblebee and Mal had major character arcs in season 2.

Also, in regards to the Pierce girls, the point is that they existed and were characters that could potentially be capitalized on in the comics just as they were in the shows. BUT, the New 52 erased them for...no seeming reason. Oh wait, I guess it was because TPTB didn't want Black Lightning to seem too old because anything over 35 is ancient.

[Vordan]

The Young Justice TV series was in planning well before the New 52. It came out in 2010.

Yep and Bumblebee wasn’t in S1. She was in S2 and as a minor character at best. You’d have a stronger argument if you said New 52 erased Jackson Hyde, which it did and it took Rebirth to bring him back. That’s a legitimate criticism, Johns absolutely should’ve been better about bringing Kaldur back, although I understand he wanted to take the opportunity to give Arthur a strong base, something Arthur lacked Pre-Flashpoint, which he succeeded with. But that it took as long as it did to reintroduce Kaldur is shameful.

[K. Jones]

Hit and miss, just like every other chief editor and every other era of comics at any time, really. We tend to remember the legendary writers, artists and runs and attribute those wins to editors and forget about just how much shovelware paper pulp filler there was.

Personally I thought from interviews and sweeping grandiose attempts at line-wide stuff, DiDio seemed like an affable and experimental dude ... with perhaps tone-deaf or cheesy bad taste in experimentation. I recognize I can be harsh about dudes whose style or ideas give me post-traumatic Nineties Flashbacks. But I'll defend to the death even some of his own vanity projects. O.M.A.C. was a good comic book. He set loose some of the all-time greatest comic book runs in my memory. Sometimes that was a case of him dumping a bag of lemons into the workshop and only whoever writer or artist being a lemonade master, but hey, credit is credit.

I am mostly just curious about where things go from here.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yep and Bumblebee wasn’t in S1. She was in S2 and as a minor character at best. You’d have a stronger argument if you said New 52 erased Jackson Hyde, which it did and it took Rebirth to bring him back. That’s a legitimate criticism, Johns absolutely should’ve been better about bringing Kaldur back, although I understand he wanted to take the opportunity to give Arthur a strong base, something Arthur lacked Pre-Flashpoint, which he succeeded with. But that it took as long as it did to reintroduce Kaldur is shameful.

She actually was. She was introduced in the season 1 episode "Targets" along with Mal.

[leo619]

Well, it sucks that the ideas were also horrible. So...

We'll have to agree to disagree on the ideas being horrible so....

I've given the reasons why the New 52 was actually a step back in diversity. What are the reasons you're citing why Rebirth was a step back in that regard? I don't recall there being many writers or artists of color or female writers or artists during the New 52 era nor do I remember many POC characters getting any meaningful spotlight.

I've also done the same regarding why New 52 was a step forward in terms of diversity, you only need to travel back to my initial response to your post to see what New 52 did.
Now whether you agree with it not is your prerogative, though you won't because you hate the New 52. But the fact that we finally had POC writers when New 52 came in as well as POC minority books and meaningful expansion of POC in teams like Earth 2 represents itself.

You realize that nowhere in that post does the writer credit the New 52 with bringing in female readership, do you? In fact, it focuses more on what Marvel is doing to attract female readers than what the New 52 did.

Yes, because an over 30% increase in women demographic happened because people we're waiting for Marvel to release the books versus the already 3+ years DC was doing with their women characters in New 52. Sure Buddy....

No, I think you're confusing ideas and intentions. The intention to push for representation and diversity is a good and much-needed thing, but the ideas they had to do so were godawful.

No, I think you don't understand that different people can have different opinions on what creates a good idea, and like many other classic readers, assume all individuals have to cater towards your state of belief. The fact that multiple people have stated in this thread that they either like the ideas or execution of what was done with not just diversity but new 52 in general clearly indicate people thought they were good, and the initial success of said books also indicated these ideas.

Really? Because, no offense to Walker, but I don't remember his run being very highly regarded or any of his contributions to the character receiving widespread recognition. Also, what "solo history." Cyborg only had a solo for like 5 years.

Also, lemme guess: you've never actually read any of the New Teen Titans run, have you?

Widely regarded to who? To classic readers? Definitely not, because Walker's run was contributing to an ideology that they themselves rejected. But if you go to the Cyborg appreciation thread, you will that those that wish for the advancement of Cyborg state Walker was one of the few writers doing things right with Cyborg. And he was. So if you're going to follow the traditional method of classic readers, then Walker's run was so so, New 52 was a disaster, All New All Different Marvel was a disaster, Miles Morales shouldn't exist or should change his name, etc. But it really depends upon which environment you're in to get the scope of what people value, and CBR like many other comic websites are dominated primarily by a more classic reader ideology.

That's the point and the reason why Cyborg as a solo hero never gained traction with either writers or artists. Readers are attracted to characters with an actual lore behind them. Why do people read Superman or Batman or Spider-Man? Because there's a cast of characters and a series of relationships and dynamics that are part of a larger mythos. That is what retains fans and gives writers ideas of where to take a character or even create new characters. For example, Damian Wayne being introduced as the son of Bruce Wayne and Talia al Ghul loses all impact unless you have an established relationship between Bruce and Talia.

For Cyborg, his lore was the Titans. Those were his relationships. That was his mythos. So without those dynamics and backstory being a part of his character, there wasn't enough there to generate long-term interest.

Disagree, it's not like there was some magical force that prevented them of having you appealing lore that was devoid from the Titans. Lore is Lore, and can be changed for the better or worse. It's more important on how much effort was placed in the lore to make the character appealing, and that's where things fail. For example, JLO was/is completely devoid of Titans Lore besides having Starfire as a cast member, and yet in the original states was considered some of the best writing done for Cyborg since Walker's Solo run. But as always the problem with DC, a new writer comes in (This time Dan Abnett, another titans writer hmm...) and reverses all of the buildup and foundation that Joshua Williamson built. Which reverts back to my point. When you have writers in place who do not have an interest in elevating the character, you run into the problems that we saw in New 52 and we're currently seeing in JLO. But Walker's and Williamson provided clear cut examples that with the proper motivation and execution, Cyborg could reach to greatness. Sadly other writers won't allow it.

No, Marvel capitalized on the fact that the New 52 was inherently flawed because of some of the ideas behind it, like the confused continuity and the bungled character directions. Marvel just came along and actually did it right. That's what they capitalized on.

No, Marvel capitalize on the ideas that New 52 had, and executed the ideas at a much better rate than DC did. We can keep going back and forth with our own statements if you like.

[Nick Miller]

The New 52 was a rushed, controversial, and messy reboot that seriously hurt DC's reputation and viability. I was instantly derided by fans and critics alike and rightly so. It was just objectively not a good move, even if a small sliver of the fanbase liked it. Whoever was behind the New 52 should have lost their job just for that alone.

Half the fan base liked it.

[Sacred Knight]

A lot of people liked it. But that doesn't fit the narrative of provable objective failure from the jump. But since that's untrue, understandably falsehoods have to be weaved in there.

The reality is it wasn't an objectively bad idea in the least. It was objectively poorly planned and implemented. And even then, for the first few years it was strong. Took a little while for the poor planning--compounded with the their inability to commit to a full reboot, creating inconsistencies where there could have easily been none-- and their usual event overload, to infect the overall line.

[DevilBat66]

He stayed way too long.

That's all I'm gonna say.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the ideas being horrible so....

Well, most agree with me.

I've also done the same regarding why New 52 was a step forward in terms of diversity, you only need to travel back to my initial response to your post to see what New 52 did.
Now whether you agree with it not is your prerogative, though you won't because you hate the New 52. But the fact that we finally had POC writers when New 52 came in as well as POC minority books and meaningful expansion of POC in teams like Earth 2 represents itself.

I don't remember many POC writers coming on board in the New 52. A vast majority of them were still white guys. However, I remember in Rebirth, Christopher Priest being one of the first black writers to come onto the Justice League title in a long time. And it was a great, albeit short run. However, I can't think of a similarly high profile project from the New 52 that was written by a person of color.

Yes, because an over 30% increase in women demographic happened because people we're waiting for Marvel to release the books versus the already 3+ years DC was doing with their women characters in New 52. Sure Buddy....

Lol. Except there is no evidence that the New 52 was at all responsible for that amount of female readership. You do realize that women were reading comics well before the New 52, right? Also, Marvel had debuted Marvel NOW! in 2012. How do you know that that wasn't the cause. What you're doing here is throwing out numbers without any sort of causal analysis linking those numbers to the New 52.

No, I think you don't understand that different people can have different opinions on what creates a good idea, and like many other classic readers, assume all individuals have to cater towards your state of belief. The fact that multiple people have stated in this thread that they either like the ideas or execution of what was done with not just diversity but new 52 in general clearly indicate people thought they were good, and the initial success of said books also indicated these ideas.

Well, the general consensus that's developed around the New 52 over the 9 years since its debut has actually been that a lot of the ideas were bad. Like, have you not seen the legion of articles online panning the New 52? That's not just my biases or my preferences. And ignoring the general consensus simply because you're a fan of something is just burying your head in the sand. You can like something and at the same time recognize that it's not good. There are movies that I love but I know they're not good movies and deserve all the hate thrown at them. The New 52, unfortunately, had a few gems but for the most part, was very bad and actually did a lot to hurt DC's reputation as a company.

Widely regarded to who? To classic readers? Definitely not, because Walker's run was contributing to an ideology that they themselves rejected. But if you go to the Cyborg appreciation thread, you will that those that wish for the advancement of Cyborg state Walker was one of the few writers doing things right with Cyborg. And he was. So if you're going to follow the traditional method of classic readers, then Walker's run was so so, New 52 was a disaster, All New All Different Marvel was a disaster, Miles Morales shouldn't exist or should change his name, etc. But it really depends upon which environment you're in to get the scope of what people value, and CBR like many other comic websites are dominated primarily by a more classic reader ideology.

Well, to anyone really. I don't remember hearing anyone say "ya gotta check out what Walker's doing on Cyborg" or "this is a definitive run for the character." And again, that's not a knock on Walker, but it just shows that there wasn't enough interest being generated because, again, there was no lore to attract many readers to the title.

Disagree, it's not like there was some magical force that prevented them of having you appealing lore that was devoid from the Titans. Lore is Lore, and can be changed for the better or worse. It's more important on how much effort was placed in the lore to make the character appealing, and that's where things fail.

Lore is built up over years' worth of stories. If lore was so easy to just construct, then every new character would take off and be as popular as Batman or Spider-Man. However, it's not. And characters that aren't part of a larger mythos are less likely to catch on with the fanbase than those that are. That's why you see characters like Kamala Khan and Miles Morales taking off whereas several other characters like Damage and Silencer are nowhere near as popular. Therefore, when you have a character with established lore behind them, it's kind of a bad idea to divorce them from that because it is a vehicle for providing new story directions and supporting characters. DC, however, decided to hobble Cyborg by destroying his Titans connections.

I'm sorry if you like Cyborg on the League, but it's actually stunted him. End of story.

For example, JLO was/is completely devoid of Titans Lore besides having Starfire as a cast member, and yet in the original states was considered some of the best writing done for Cyborg since Walker's Solo run.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a lot of the fanfare around JLO was the fact that Cyborg and Starfire were together again. Also, again, it didn't really set the world on fire, did it?

But as always the problem with DC, a new writer comes in (This time Dan Abnett, another titans writer hmm...) and reverses all of the buildup and foundation that Joshua Williamson built. Which reverts back to my point. When you have writers in place who do not have an interest in elevating the character, you run into the problems that we saw in New 52 and we're currently seeing in JLO. But Walker's and Williamson provided clear cut examples that with the proper motivation and execution, Cyborg could reach to greatness. Sadly other writers won't allow it.

Dude. He's a Titan. Just let him be a Titan. That's how people know the character. That's where he developed all the personality and backstory that people like about him. That's the point. Cyborg didn't need to be reinvented and thrust away from the Titans, especially when (as you literally just pointed out) you have fans and writers clamoring to see him get back in touch with his Titans roots. Again, sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason Williamson and DC paired Cyborg and Starfire together on JLO is that they knew people wanted to see them together again. That's also the reason, they tried to shoehorn Beast Boy into his solo title. But, again, I have yet to see anyone really hold up JLO as a definitive take on any of those characters, let alone Cyborg.

No, Marvel capitalize on the ideas that New 52 had, and executed the ideas at a much better rate than DC did. We can keep going back and forth with our own statements if you like.

Really because last I checked Marvel didn't reboot their universe and destroy years' worth of stories and continuity. They let their universe be what it was and built on it, which is what the New 52 should have done, but didn't.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Half the fan base liked it.

Well, the aim should be for at least a majority of the fanbase to like it. However, as soon as they got a taste, a majority of the fanbase hated it...

[leo619]

Well, most agree with me.

Correction, most classic fans agree with you. There's a difference.

I don't remember many POC writers coming on board in the New 52. A vast majority of them were still white guys. However, I remember in Rebirth, Christopher Priest being one of the first black writers to come onto the Justice League title in a long time. And it was a great, albeit short run. However, I can't think of a similarly high profile project from the New 52 that was written by a person of color.

No one stated there was a slew of POC writers that joined New 52, but New 52 helped started the foundation of bringing in POC writers to begin with. Wallace, Walker, Gene Yang, are just a few of the writers that was helped established in the New 52 era. Before that, there was NO POC writers, which was one of the concerns that New 52 attempted to address.

Lol. Except there is no evidence that the New 52 was at all responsible for that amount of female readership. You do realize that women were reading comics well before the New 52, right? Also, Marvel had debuted Marvel NOW! in 2012. How do you know that that wasn't the cause. What you're doing here is throwing out numbers without any sort of causal analysis linking those numbers to the New 52.

Except before New 52 was created, according to SDCC Comic Con Panel dedicated to diversity, Gail Simone, Dwayne McDuffie and more reported that over 88% of comic book readers were white males over the age of 28. So it's safe to say women readers weren't that interested pre new 52. Secondly, Marvel now debuted, but the majority of the female solo series from Marvel Now happened after the survey was performed. So what I'm doing here, is showing there's clearly a link between New 52 successes and a rise in female readership due to their continue push for diversity. Now if you want to believe it or not, is up to you.

Well, the general consensus that's developed around the New 52 over the 9 years since its debut has actually been that a lot of the ideas were bad. Like, have you not seen the legion of articles online panning the New 52? That's not just my biases or my preferences. And ignoring the general consensus simply because you're a fan of something is just burying your head in the sand. You can like something and at the same time recognize that it's not good. There are movies that I love but I know they're not good movies and deserve all the hate thrown at them. The New 52, unfortunately, had a few gems but for the most part, was very bad and actually did a lot to hurt DC's reputation as a company.

No, you don't know what the general consensus is. You pretend to know because you surround yourself with individuals with similar ideology, and therefore attempt to protrude that ideology into others like you ways is the only way. If you were actually part of the other demographics however, you would know what you state as "general consensus" is truly not a general consensus, just a consensus represented specifically under the classic reader mindset.

Well, to anyone really. I don't remember hearing anyone say "ya gotta check out what Walker's doing on Cyborg" or "this is a definitive run for the character." And again, that's not a knock on Walker, but it just shows that there wasn't enough interest being generated because, again, there was no lore to attract many readers to the title.

Well it's clearly obvious you weren't in the cyborg appreciation thread during the time of walkers run, but that's you knock, not the knock of people who was enjoying the book and thought it was putting Cyborg in the right direction.

Lore is built up over years' worth of stories. If lore was so easy to just construct, then every new character would take off and be as popular as Batman or Spider-Man. However, it's not. And characters that aren't part of a larger mythos are less likely to catch on with the fanbase than those that are. That's why you see characters like Kamala Khan and Miles Morales taking off whereas several other characters like Damage and Silencer are nowhere near as popular. Therefore, when you have a character with established lore behind them, it's kind of a bad idea to divorce them from that because it is a vehicle for providing new story directions and supporting characters. DC, however, decided to hobble Cyborg by destroying his Titans connections.

Incorrect, If that was the case, books like all of manga would be no where near as popular as they are today, when manga is literally destroying comics across the world. One Piece by itself, which is less lore than the majority of books written in comics, sells better than the top 100 comics combined. No, the reason new characters aren't successful today is specifically within the comic book industry, classic readers mostly lack an interest in trying new things and stick to things they've read since they were children. It has nothing to do with new establish lore but the reluctance of trying new things. This reluctance is why legacy characters can exist, as some classic readers are willing to give it a try since it's familiar long enough for a bit of new readership to come in and help stabilize the book. So let's not get it twisted that long term lore is needed in order for a book to be successful. That's only a problem within the comic book industry and that's only a problem towards a certain demographic.

I'm sorry if you like Cyborg on the League, but it's actually stunted him. End of story.

It didn't stunted him, End of story. See what I did there? We can keep going if you like.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a lot of the fanfare around JLO was the fact that Cyborg and Starfire were together again. Also, again, it didn't really set the world on fire, did it?

Seeing at the JLO appreciation thread was mostly celebrating how they were taking Cyborg to a new direction versus the tired Man vs Machine storyline and the excitement of Williamson space exploration, we'll have to agree to disagree.