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  1. #1
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    Default Over at the DC board...

    people are throwing phrases around that the comics are used as storyboards for movies and shows and that these characters, Marvel's included as IP farms. IMO, I feel that's really cheap and an insult to the comic writers. When I read a Marvel event, I read for the story and the characters. I don't just look at the art and say "hmmm this might look good on tv/movies". The corporate overlords must think readers of comics are dumb and stupid. Comics are a different medium than movies/tv as are books a different medium as well.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    people are throwing phrases around that the comics are used as storyboards for movies and shows and that these characters, Marvel's included as IP farms.
    Jonathan Hickman among others himself said that a lot of writers in Marvel are encouraged to write for the movies.

    The corporate overlords must think readers of comics are dumb and stupid.
    Most times they don't think of readers at all. The bottom line is that comics are a small part of the overall revenue that superheroes generate. Most of it is merchandise, licenses, movies, and not comics sales.

    Comics are a different medium than movies/tv as are books a different medium as well.
    If people truly believed that they would do what Brian K. Vaughan and Alan Moore do, which is create narratives that don't fit a neat genre, is entirely creator owned, and as such primarily geared to be read as comics rather than storyboards for movies.

  3. #3
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    I mean it makes sense, yea comics and movies are a different medium but a good story if translated well onto the big screen will still do well.

    So comics are basically testing grounds for ideas. I still remember when Greg Pak saying how he randomly got a call from one of the higher ups at Marvel that told him to do a story where Amadeus Cho is the Hulk, it wasn't Paks idea it was one of the chief editors idea. At that time i thought that was strange but it all makes sense now. It was the perfect way to do a Hulk movie without Universal, do him as not Bruce Banner Hulk but Amadeus Cho Hulk, even his ridiculously upbeat and annoying personality was just perfect for the MCU as oppose to the much darker and morbid theme with Banner.

    Ah it's all so funny...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    people are throwing phrases around that the comics are used as storyboards for movies and shows and that these characters, Marvel's included as IP farms. IMO, I feel that's really cheap and an insult to the comic writers. When I read a Marvel event, I read for the story and the characters. I don't just look at the art and say "hmmm this might look good on tv/movies". The corporate overlords must think readers of comics are dumb and stupid. Comics are a different medium than movies/tv as are books a different medium as well.
    The problem is manga and YA graphic novels easily outsell Marvel and DC.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalk.../#5a6b396b4d68

    https://news.rutgers.edu/feature/why...5#.XlNDEZVKjIU

    https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/...rketplace.html

    The convoluted continuity is a barrier to kids entering DC and Marvel comics, its part of the reason these characters sell better in other media.

    Disney did not buy Marvel to get into the comic book business, they did it to get into the IP business and look how much money the MCU makes for them. The Joker movie made a billion dollars, which is far more money than what the comics provide. Also, look at the money the recent Batman and Spider-Man games made.

    I think this other media stuff is more appealing to kids today than the comics, kids may know these characters without ever picking up a comic book.

    At this point, the comics themselves would more profitable if they ditched the decades-old continuity and focused on stand-alone YA graphic novels.

    But the fact remains the real profits are in other media, not the comics themselves.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    as is often the case with outsiders, a lot of incorrect conclusions are drawn from limited data about how this all works.

    yes, Disney owns Marvel and, thus, the various TMs and IPs created as work-for-hire by Marvel.
    yes, from time to time, an effort is made to more closely tie the look or a story line in the comics with something going on in one of the larger media projects.
    yes, Marvel comics editorial "answers" to the higher-ups at Disney.


    then thing that has mostly killed comics sales is the Direct Market system of distribution and the ridiculous cover prices which are geared to adult buyers are are still in the fandom out of nostalgia rather than pure fun. The nostalgia engine approach locks out new and younger readers which is what has led to the decline in that quarter and the overall decline in sales.

    People on the executive side- those outside the actual making and publishing of the actual comics- like the DM model because it gives them the control all bean counters desire over every market and, as it does in every market, that control is the same that any murderer has when strangling his victim to death.

    but

    no, they do not dictate the stories themselves.
    no, they do not consider the comics an "IP farm." They already own enough material (as well as the Ultraverse, Shadowline, Malibu, New Universe, and Crossgen, etc.) that, if they stopped publishing comics tomorrow, they'd have a century of IP to mine for tv, movies and video games. at least.

    while there are occasional homages to iconic shots, unless you're Zach Snyder or Robert Rodriguez, comics books are absolutely not storyboards for the films and TV shows.

    while many comics writers DO move to TV and/or film, it is, by no means some sort of automatic or even direct pipeline for that sort of career shift. More often than not the comics writers are NOT tapped to have any influence whatsoever over the film and TV versions of the product. Close to zero times.

    it's easy to be cynical about all this but, honestly, people don't get into comics because they think of it as a stepping stone to movies and tv (and they'd be idiots if they did). They get into comics because they love comics. That's the truth and probably always will be.
    Last edited by Redjack; 02-23-2020 at 10:57 PM.

  6. #6
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    It's not a knock on the writers. I don't think anyone is insinuating that comic book writers approach any of the stories they write primarily thinking "how can I make this into a movie?" Nor do I think anyone is saying that comic book writers' work is unimportant. However, it is one of the reasons that Disney and WB see Marvel and DC as profitable and/or important. Disney and WB view them to an extent as little laboratories where writers can tell new stories with established characters that, maybe at some point down the line, can be adapted into films. Those films then go on to make billions, which is much more than the comics sales make.

    At the same time, the comic book writers' jobs are to craft compelling tales that we, the fans, will love. Sometimes, that means that the story is chosen down the line to be adapted for a blockbuster movie, but in that moment, the writer should only be thinking "what should happen next for this story?" That's what makes for classic comic book tales.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    as is often the case with outsiders, a lot of incorrect conclusions are drawn from limited data about how this all works.

    yes, Disney owns Marvel and, thus, the various TMs and IPs created as work-for-hire by Marvel.
    yes, from time to time, an effort is made to more closely tie the look or a story line in the comics with something going on in one of the larger media projects.
    yes, Marvel comics editorial "answers" to the higher-ups at Disney.


    then thing that has mostly killed comics sales is the Direct Market system of distribution and the ridiculous cover prices which are geared to adult buyers are are still in the fandom out of nostalgia rather than pure fun. The nostalgia engine approach locks out new and younger readers which is what has led to the decline in that quarter and the overall decline in sales.

    People on the executive side- those outside the actual making and publishing of the actual comics- like the DM model because it gives them the control all bean counters desire over every market and, as it does in every market, that control is the same that any murderer has when strangling his victim to death.

    but

    no, they do not dictate the stories themselves.
    no, they do not consider the comics an "IP farm." They already own enough material (as well as the Ultraverse, Shadowline, Malibu, New Universe, and Crossgen, etc.) that, if they stopped publishing comics tomorrow, they'd have a century of IP to mine for tv, movies and video games. at least.

    while there are occasional homages to iconic shots, unless you're Zach Snyder or Robert Rodriguez, comics books are absolutely not storyboards for the films and TV shows.

    while many comics writers DO move to TV and/or film, it is, by no means some sort of automatic or even direct pipeline for that sort of career shift. More often than not the comics writers are NOT tapped to have any influence whatsoever over the film and TV versions of the product. Close to zero times.

    it's easy to be cynical about all this but, honestly, people don't get into comics because they think of it as a stepping stone to movies and tv (and they'd be idiots if they did). They get into comics because they love comics. That's the truth and probably always will be.
    Quoted in agreement especially the bolded part.

    It's an argument i've made for years now but the direct market form of distribution is pretty outdated and is hindering more than is helping today. The 20-30 page, $4-$5 floppy makes little economic sense to those outside the industry and effectively catering to the same audience (whom the direct market pretty much caters to) has led to sales having a ceiling of around 100,000 per month. The DM is all about being gamed with promos and relaunches.

    We've seen the figures that show that sales in channels outside the direct market have been increasing, so i think it stands to reason that the big 2 should do more to cater to those other channels.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intothevoid View Post
    I mean it makes sense, yea comics and movies are a different medium but a good story if translated well onto the big screen will still do well.

    So comics are basically testing grounds for ideas. I still remember when Greg Pak saying how he randomly got a call from one of the higher ups at Marvel that told him to do a story where Amadeus Cho is the Hulk, it wasn't Paks idea it was one of the chief editors idea. At that time i thought that was strange but it all makes sense now. It was the perfect way to do a Hulk movie without Universal, do him as not Bruce Banner Hulk but Amadeus Cho Hulk, even his ridiculously upbeat and annoying personality was just perfect for the MCU as oppose to the much darker and morbid theme with Banner.

    Ah it's all so funny...
    Though Pak would've been pleased to get that call, as he'd been pushing Amadeus for years. Him becoming the Totally Awesome Hulk and later Brawn has secured his constant usage by other writers (most notably in Champions), and led to him later being able to give Amadeus a team of his own to lead (the New Agents of Atlas).

    Having Amadeus as the Hulk wouldn't bypass Universal. But it is useful if they decide to replace Bruce in the MCU when Mark Ruffalo leaves. They also have She-Hulk of course, who's getting a TV show next year (Universal's contract only covers movies, so Disney+ gave them a workaround).
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Though Pak would've been pleased to get that call, as he'd been pushing Amadeus for years. Him becoming the Totally Awesome Hulk and later Brawn has secured his constant usage by other writers (most notably in Champions), and led to him later being able to give Amadeus a team of his own to lead (the New Agents of Atlas).

    Having Amadeus as the Hulk wouldn't bypass Universal. But it is useful if they decide to replace Bruce in the MCU when Mark Ruffalo leaves. They also have She-Hulk of course, who's getting a TV show next year (Universal's contract only covers movies, so Disney+ gave them a workaround).
    He was pleased for sure, but it's interesting that this is not the idea that he came up with by calling the editors but the other way around and while Amadeus will hang around his future is very shaky, he is relegated to existing in team books that have little to no traction of their own at this point.

    I am not sure, i think it does bypass universal because it's a different Hulk entirely. The way that She-Hulk bypass it or Red Hulk.

  10. #10
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    It's good to know that writers think about the story and characters first and not the movies. I don't know it seems like in the Jim Shooter days, it was simpler and writers just seemed to run free with stories. At that time yeah you had Hulk as a tv series but Spider-Man had flopped as a concept for a live action movie/show. So, I think the fact that there wasn't an MCU made it easier. As far as the art is concerned, you didn't have to worry about movie synergy then and could do whatever. But now when you open an Iron Man book you can see the artist tries really hard to make Tony either look Hispanic or like RDJ Captain Marvel like Brie Larson, etc. It shouldn't be that way. Artists should be allowed to create their own look for a certain character. At least the stories are different.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    It's good to know that writers think about the story and characters first and not the movies. I don't know it seems like in the Jim Shooter days, it was simpler and writers just seemed to run free with stories. At that time yeah you had Hulk as a tv series but Spider-Man had flopped as a concept for a live action movie/show. So, I think the fact that there wasn't an MCU made it easier. As far as the art is concerned, you didn't have to worry about movie synergy then and could do whatever. But now when you open an Iron Man book you can see the artist tries really hard to make Tony either look Hispanic or like RDJ Captain Marvel like Brie Larson, etc. It shouldn't be that way. Artists should be allowed to create their own look for a certain character. At least the stories are different.
    Jim Shooter cared about selling comics first and foremost but it would not be fair to say writers had freedom then, or in fact ever had freedom. They had a room with a window. The size of room and window varied.

    Likewise Shooter definitely did care about tie ins and publicity. Dazzler for instance was a character that was created for a movie that never got made and her appearances in comics was meant to promote and build up to that.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    as is often the case with outsiders, a lot of incorrect conclusions are drawn from limited data about how this all works.

    yes, Disney owns Marvel and, thus, the various TMs and IPs created as work-for-hire by Marvel.
    yes, from time to time, an effort is made to more closely tie the look or a story line in the comics with something going on in one of the larger media projects.
    yes, Marvel comics editorial "answers" to the higher-ups at Disney.

    but

    no, they do not dictate the stories themselves.
    no, they do not consider the comics an "IP farm."
    They already own enough material (as well as the Ultraverse, Shadowline, Malibu, New Universe, and Crossgen, etc.) that, if they stopped publishing comics tomorrow, they'd have a century of IP to mine for tv, movies and video games. at least.
    Hopefully this will all actually sink in with the fans who need to hear it, particularly the bolded parts.

  13. #13
    Fantastic Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    people are throwing phrases around that the comics are used as storyboards for movies and shows and that these characters, Marvel's included as IP farms. IMO, I feel that's really cheap and an insult to the comic writers. When I read a Marvel event, I read for the story and the characters. I don't just look at the art and say "hmmm this might look good on tv/movies". The corporate overlords must think readers of comics are dumb and stupid. Comics are a different medium than movies/tv as are books a different medium as well.
    Seems like they're on to something now that Kevin Feige is actually overseeing the publishing side at Marvel now.

  14. #14
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intothevoid View Post
    I am not sure, i think it does bypass universal because it's a different Hulk entirely. The way that She-Hulk bypass it or Red Hulk.
    Doesn't matter, Universal had the movie rights to Hulk, end of. Doesn't matter if it's Bruce or Ammy. The only way around it is to only use Hulk in team movies or other heroes' films (like Thor Ragnarok, which was in fact based on Planet Hulk!) or for it to be a TV show (like She-Hulk).
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  15. #15
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    I certainly think that the companies are happy to use comics as testing grounds for concepts. It's certainly cheaper than making a movie to test them.

    That being said, are either DC or Marvel really just creating full and awful stories right now?

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