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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Still, the distributor is not a great excuse. Location matters. The guy who stocks the shelves in the abandoned, empty aisle the trading cards are in can walk over to the toy section or electronics and stock the anthologies there. It's not that much harder to track, I'm sure, and I doubt it'd hurt productivity much (though I've never worked in distribution like this, so maybe I'm wrong).
    I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't rules in place on the distributors preventing that. Having two distributors jostling for the same space seems like a recipe for stepping on toes.

    There is another thing in the economy of newspapers and newspaper distribution: ads. Historically, newspapers have received half of their revenue (and sometimes more) out of advertising. Comics might be a little different, but ads were still present. But that market is entirely different today. American comics doesn't seem to have had outside ads since the 80s or so, and I just checked some new Swedish ones we had lying about, and they didn't have it either (ads for new albums from the publisher, but that's not a revenue generator).

    Distribution was only one half of the puzzle here. Revenue is another.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #32
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    […]
    Still, the distributor is not a great excuse. Location matters. The guy who stocks the shelves in the abandoned, empty aisle the trading cards are in can walk over to the toy section or electronics and stock the anthologies there. It's not that much harder to track, I'm sure, and I doubt it'd hurt productivity much (though I've never worked in distribution like this, so maybe I'm wrong).
    […]
    Here in Italy we solved the problem in a very simply way: the Supermarkets put all the comics, magazines, newspapers in the same shelving unit, so when a mom goes to buy her magazine, then she saw also the comics; it is like to have a self-service newsstand inside the supermarket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Maybe he was just keeping to American production standards?
    […]
    Maybe I have misunderstood what you mean (or what he meant), but I think he suggested two different solutions (listen from the minute 21:13): the first one is to adopt a format similar to the ones adopted by the comics books in the forties: books eighty pages long containing about 10 stories, but cheaper (so no color and low quality paper) and eventually print in a later time a collectable edition of those anthologies with colored stories and high quality paper for the direct market, while the second solution (which I think is better) is to collect the various titles in a cheap anthology; so again no color and low quality paper. But in both the examples those anthologies shouldn’t substitute the format used for the comics destined to the direct market, because those anthologies should flank those books.

  3. #33
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't rules in place on the distributors preventing that. Having two distributors jostling for the same space seems like a recipe for stepping on toes.

    Distribution was only one half of the puzzle here. Revenue is another.
    I'd imagine each distributor has their own zone so to speak, yeah. They can get over it. I know retailers need to keep their distributors happy, but in my opinion product placement is more important. But again, I don't work in retail so maybe I'm very wrong here.

    Ads aren't a bad idea. Perhaps with a wider distribution network, comics could take advantage of this again. I'm guessing they stopped running ads because the limited distribution meant it wasn't worth buying ad space for anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Here in Italy we solved the problem in a very simply way: the Supermarkets put all the comics, magazines, newspapers in the same shelving unit, so when a mom goes to buy her magazine, then she saw also the comics; it is like to have a self-service newsstand inside the supermarket.
    I think it was done like that in the States back in the day too. I got into comics not too long before they completely disappeared from spinner ranks, and I remember seeing them next to the magazines in stores. But that would put us back in the situation we had where multiple distributors are ordering and selling DC's books, and the inconsistency and chance of fraud there was pretty high. I wouldn't be against a system like this, but there'd need to be better internal controls to make it operate properly.

    Maybe I have misunderstood what you mean (or what he meant), but I think he suggested two different solutions (listen from the minute 21:13): the first one is to adopt a format similar to the ones adopted by the comics books in the forties: books eighty pages long containing about 10 stories, but cheaper (so no color and low quality paper) and eventually print in a later time a collectable edition of those anthologies with colored stories and high quality paper for the direct market, while the second solution (which I think is better) is to collect the various titles in a cheap anthology; so again no color and low quality paper
    Maybe *I* misunderstood him. Like I said, I was getting coffee and not paying close attention.

    Whatever he meant to say, I support the idea of low quality books for the casuals, higher quality versions for the collectors, and whatever will sell to support the direct market. I want the industry to escape the direct market, but we're not at a point where we can yet. Until we are, we can't wash our hands of it.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    […]
    I think it was done like that in the States back in the day too. I got into comics not too long before they completely disappeared from spinner ranks, and I remember seeing them next to the magazines in stores. But that would put us back in the situation we had where multiple distributors are ordering and selling DC's books, and the inconsistency and chance of fraud there was pretty high. I wouldn't be against a system like this, but there'd need to be better internal controls to make it operate properly.
    […]
    Yes and that is strange: it is a system that in Italy and in Japan works perfectly well, but it didn't work in the USA. It works so well that the Sergio Bonelli Editore (the greatest Italian comics publisher) don't sell anything in the direct market, it sells only with the newsstands and it is great like Marvel and DC put together.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    The individuals involved definitely may make a difference. Though no country is immune to fraud and corruption, and that seems to be one of the bigger factors in what happened here in the States.

    Geography could be a consideration too. America is a lot bigger than Italy or Japan; we could fit all of Europe inside Texas alone, and still have room. Distribution for us doesn't work the same way just due to economics of size, yknow?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #36

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Geography could be a consideration too. America is a lot bigger than Italy or Japan; we could fit all of Europe inside Texas alone, and still have room. Distribution for us doesn't work the same way just due to economics of size, yknow?
    Europe is sort-of poorly defined geographically. The EU is about six times larger than Texas; two and a half times larger than Alaska. If you do a strict geographic definition (including Russa west of the Urals and Caucasus), Europe is larger than the entirety of the USA (or Canada, for that matter).

    That aside, looking at the American comics market right now gives me a bit of a strange impression, at least from my viewpoint as being used to the book market (where the mass market distribution suffered its own collapse in the 90s). Books are usually sold at a reverse auction, with durable expensive editions sold first, and then a later wider inexpensive release. But comics are first sold expensively in not-so durable form, and then later you get a (hopefully) wider release in, at about the same cost and in slightly more durable form.

    I'm wondering myself how (or if) the American comics market is going to extricate itself from the bind it has managed to put itself in…
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #38
    BANNED Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Europe is sort-of poorly defined geographically
    No it's not.

    Please tell me one point on the globe you have trouble telling if it's in Europe or not.

  9. #39
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The individuals involved definitely may make a difference. Though no country is immune to fraud and corruption, and that seems to be one of the bigger factors in what happened here in the States.

    Geography could be a consideration too. America is a lot bigger than Italy or Japan; we could fit all of Europe inside Texas alone, and still have room. Distribution for us doesn't work the same way just due to economics of size, yknow?
    First of all I’m sorry because I have chosed the worst possible words to say what I wanted say. Anyway I must thank you because your reaction forced me to rethink about I was trying to say, in order to better understand my own thoughts; I appreciate that.
    What was I trying to say?
    I was trying to say I don’t think it is a problem of corruption or country, because if in the USA the mass market is a sale system which works and worked for the newspapers and for the magazine, but it didn’t work for the comics, then I think the problem isn’t in the system but in how that system was applied to the comics.
    Unfortunately these are only my conjectures, because I don't know enough the reality of the USA mass market, so it is possible I'm wrong.

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Ah okay, I got ya.

    Hey man, it's all conjecture. None of us are in the industry. The best we can do is look in from the outside, with the tiny bit of data we have access to, and make guesses. And if this industry was a simple thing to work with and fix, it'd have been done already and we'd all be talking about something else.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    First of all I’m sorry because I have chosed the worst possible words to say what I wanted say. Anyway I must thank you because your reaction forced me to rethink about I was trying to say, in order to better understand my own thoughts; I appreciate that.
    What was I trying to say?
    I was trying to say I don’t think it is a problem of corruption or country, because if in the USA the mass market is a sale system which works and worked for the newspapers and for the magazine, but it didn’t work for the comics, then I think the problem isn’t in the system but in how that system was applied to the comics.
    Unfortunately these are only my conjectures, because I don't know enough the reality of the USA mass market, so it is possible I'm wrong.
    Jim shooter explains problems, expenses, and corruption in newsstand here

    http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-...ribution.html/

    http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-...n-part-2.html/

    He has sales figures too - crisis was their biggest book in 1985 with sales of 79000 from a print run of a quarter of a million. If a big event did that today it would be seen as a failure so the newsstand was expensive to run, easy to defraud, and was selling less than today.

    Although in the 3rd part he did say they should still have comics on newsstand as a loss leader

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    No it's not.

    Please tell me one point on the globe you have trouble telling if it's in Europe or not.
    Ask a political geographer, a political pundit, a geologist, an Irishman, an Englishman, and a Scot, and I guess you'll get six different answers.

    Terms of contention (depending on outlook) includes European Russia, European Turkey, sometimes also Ukraine and Belarus (often forgotten, unless you ask). Brexit-leaning English are very much Not European too, thank you very much. Greenland and Iceland brings their own sets of issues.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron chimp View Post
    Jim shooter explains problems, expenses, and corruption in newsstand here

    http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-...ribution.html/

    http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-...n-part-2.html/

    He has sales figures too - crisis was their biggest book in 1985 with sales of 79000 from a print run of a quarter of a million. If a big event did that today it would be seen as a failure so the newsstand was expensive to run, easy to defraud, and was selling less than today.

    Although in the 3rd part he did say they should still have comics on newsstand as a loss leader
    Thank you, thank you very much! Now I understand why the system works in Italy, but not in the USA: here the distributor pay immediately all the books at the publisher, so the distributor must try to sell all the books; obviously it exists some kind of economical compensation for the returned books.
    I had to do also some research to find out how the system works in Italy, but now I have a better picture of the situation.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exciter View Post
    Given the price of the actual comics, it’d be a great deal.
    The price of actual comics is far too expensive for today's market. Netflix does not charge 20 dollars for its service, why is 20 dollars a reasonable price for this proposed DC comics service?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't rules in place on the distributors preventing that. Having two distributors jostling for the same space seems like a recipe for stepping on toes.
    I think it various by stores. I have seen both in the same location at times.

    I would think the cards are put near the check out because they are easier to watch to make sure no one steals them or a strong impulse buy item when it's time to go. That is part of the reason you see certain magazines by the check out isle instead of with the other magazines at times.

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