The Spectre vs. Dormammu, Mephisto & Shuma-Gorath

[The Arbiter]

Post Crisis vs 616.

Spectre is at "Day of Vengeance" levels where he went on that rampage.

Team Evil is at full power despite not being in their place of power.

Fight on the moons of Jupiter.

[Sharpandpointies]

...Dormammu and Mephisto muse about the rarity of being the least powerful beings in the room? That is to say, by so much that even Furnace Face's ginormous ego needs to admit it?

So, Shuma-Gorath at full power basically figures Dormammu and Mephisto to be amusing children. Or maybe gnats. Yeah, gnats is somewhat of a better comparison. His power was sufficient that if Strange, holding both his energies and those of a being sufficiently powerful to actually fight Shuma-Gorath, were to enter the Earth Dimension, entire galaxies would burn and wither just from Strange showing up (ie, not actually exerting himself, just wandering into the Earth dimension). That's galaxies, to note, and those things are pretty damn big and far apart.

Working with that, Shuma-Gorath should very comfortably above Skyfather level, easily into the Galactus range if not even above that.

[Sharpandpointies]

The more I think about it, the more I think that Strange burned out nearly all of Arioch’s power killing Shuma Gorath (certainly the effort made him ‘man-sized’ again, and dropped him - burning - from the alien sky). And what he had when they were considering all of the galaxies burning stuff, was what he then stole from Shuma.

[regnak]

...Dormammu and Mephisto muse about the rarity of being the least powerful beings in the room? That is to say, by so much that even Furnace Face's ginormous ego needs to admit it?

So, Shuma-Gorath at full power basically figures Dormammu and Mephisto to be amusing children. Or maybe gnats. Yeah, gnats is somewhat of a better comparison. His power was sufficient that if Strange, holding both his energies and those of a being sufficiently powerful to actually fight Shuma-Gorath, were to enter the Earth Dimension, entire galaxies would burn and wither just from Strange showing up (ie, not actually exerting himself, just wandering into the Earth dimension). That's galaxies, to note, and those things are pretty damn big and far apart.

Working with that, Shuma-Gorath should very comfortably above Skyfather level, easily into the Galactus range if not even above that.

I have the original Shuma-Gorath story but where is what you are talking about from?

[Shellhead]

I have the original Shuma-Gorath story but where is what you are talking about from?

He is talking about the storyline in Strange Tales volume 2, which was published in the late '80s.

[Slade1]

The more I think about it, the more I think that Strange burned out nearly all of Arioch’s power killing Shuma Gorath (certainly the effort made him ‘man-sized’ again, and dropped him - burning - from the alien sky). And what he had when they were considering all of the galaxies burning stuff, was what he then stole from Shuma.

So how would he stack up against the Spectre?

[regnak]

He is talking about the storyline in Strange Tales volume 2, which was published in the late '80s.

Ok thanks I must have forgotten I am sure I have that run somewhere.

[Sharpandpointies]

So how would he stack up against the Spectre?

If the Spectre's big thing is 'Fights Skyfathers in their place of power and wins, but has to work to do it', I'm very iffy on the Spectre managing against Shuma-Gorath and Dormammu (and Mephisto, but let's face it, Mephisto is by far the weak link of the chain, here).

Shuma-Gorath would easily be in the same range based on his Strange Tales Volume II stuff. Throw in Dormammu, who is wandering into Skyfather territory himself (I'm not talking 'top-end Skyfather', ie Odin, I'm talking in the range of what we would generally consider such), and it seems like the odds are stacking up against the Spectre.

Of course, if someone comes in and says 'No, the Spectre absolutely kicked Shazam's ass back in Day of Vengeance in Shazam's place of power', well that's a different matter.

I don't know enough about the Spectre, frankly.

[Slade1]

If the Spectre's big thing is 'Fights Skyfathers in their place of power and wins, but has to work to do it', I'm very iffy on the Spectre managing against Shuma-Gorath and Dormammu (and Mephisto, but let's face it, Mephisto is by far the weak link of the chain, here).

Shuma-Gorath would easily be in the same range based on his Strange Tales Volume II stuff. Throw in Dormammu, who is wandering into Skyfather territory himself (I'm not talking 'top-end Skyfather', ie Odin, I'm talking in the range of what we would generally consider such), and it seems like the odds are stacking up against the Spectre.

Of course, if someone comes in and says 'No, the Spectre absolutely kicked Shazam's ass back in Day of Vengeance in Shazam's place of power', well that's a different matter.

I don't know enough about the Spectre, frankly.

It took him awhile to defeat Shazam who was in his place of power with a bunch of artifacts to amp him and still lost to the Spectre convincingly. Spectre just overpowers him. Out of 10 I expect the Spectre to win all ten times against Shazam with prep.

He also beat and killed Dr. Fate, not Kent but Nabu who is an actual Lord of Order. Turned Phantom Stranger into a mouse etc.

[Sol_M]

I'm really confused by what an "average" skyfather means.

It's a really vague term that can vary massively. Not at all descriptive. There's a nigh infinite gap between Odin, who busts galaxies, and Zeus, who...doesn't. Then there's the DC version of Zeus, who is a "skyfather" but isn't actually a skyfather? Then there's Shazam himself, who is a "skyfather level being". Is that Odin level? Marvel Zeus level?

Dormammu isn't a skyfather, he's a dimensional lord or some such, same as Mephisto...right?

At least with Shuma Gorath we can compare "wither multiple galaxies as a side effect of his power" with Galactus "destroy galaxies as a side effect of fighting".

[Sharpandpointies]

The Dorm may not be listed as a Skyfather, but when we’re in ‘absolutely craps on Classic Strange and uses rituals to corrupt entire universes and put them under his sway’ territory, he’s in that range of power.

The difference between the Galactus thing and the Shuma Gorath one has to do with ‘by fighting’ versus ‘by just showing up’. One involves actual expenditure of effort, the other...doesn’t.

[The Arbiter]

I tend to use "skyfather" as a tier, rather then a title.

If you are comfortably beyond Thanos but somewhere below Classic Odin, I tend to throw you into this spot. That feels like "average" skyfather level, which Dormammu definitely sits in.

In regards to DoV Spectre, he did totally 10-count Phantom Stranger who has feats for surviving the Big Bang (I know it happened- I dont know much else of the feat) and has wrestled creatures that were larger then the sun.

[Captain Smith]

In a special edition with Dr. Fate, Spec met some Lovecraftian type and kicked his butt. Now, I don't know if that critter ranked as high as Shuma. Spec also sneered at DC high fathers and disregarded their attacks.