X-Men #7 SPOILERS

[LordUltimus]

because the dream was an idealistic crock of **** that only works if mutants are the perfect minority that never has a semblance of human flaws, that have to do all the work to get minimal decent treatment, and even then most mutants had miserable lives and were villainfied the moment they fought back, and then their treatment was justified by their inability to follow the "dream"
that narrative was toxic juvinile nonsense and im glad xavier himself killed it

Xavier did a big "I love humanity" speech not two issues ago.

[AJpyro]

Kinda wish we can move on from the Wanda stuff.

[tuck frump]

But his methods are now pragmatic and he prioritizes the well being of his people whereas he used to prioritize humans well being while hoping for their gratitude

[Rosebunse]

wanda literally will never face any consequences for her actions since shes priveledged as all sin, words that reflect the crushing trauma and fear of her actions wont actually hurt her, since in uncanny avengers she deadass says she doesnt care about mutants, even in her solo she wishes agatha told her not to worry about mutants because mags was not her dad

Why is Wanda a sinner and Apocalypse gets to play High Priest? Why does Sinister get a bar?

[zinderel]

take it, smile, hope for the better tomorrow and don’t kill them back

I’m curious. Can you name one instance in the real world where an oppressed minority has ‘taken it, smiled, and hoped’ and actually succeeded? Because that isn’t how the world works. It’s a wonderful dream, but it’s a child’s dream, ignorant of the bigger picture and how the world actually works. No minority, no oppressed culture, has EVER had their oppressors say, “Wow, you’ve been SO polite while we exploited your labor, devalued your lives, kidnapped and brainwashed your children, erased your culture to the best of our ability. Here, HAVE your land/culture/identity back! Good for you for not getting uppity!”

[gurkle]

Part of the genius of Hickman's concept is that he's taken the energy of modern conversations about race and identity and hitched it to a franchise that's mostly about powerful people LARPing as the equivalent of real-life oppressed minorities.

I don't mean that as a criticism of Hickman. That is well-known as the problem with the mutant metaphor and some of the things that have been attached to it, most famously Claremont turning Magneto into a survivor of the world's most famous real-life genocide to make his fears for mutants (i.e. incredibly powerful people) seem more justified.

What Hickman figured out how to do is to create a situation where the mutants aren't clearly oppressed, so there's none of the usual shame involved in contrasting them with real-life people with real-life problems, and so readers are free to see them either as rebels against respectability politics, or powerful people enjoying (and sometimes abusing) their power.

[Zelena]

Xavier did a big "I love humanity" speech not two issues ago.

Tough love…

[zinderel]

My opinion belongs to me: I see them as humans with a X-gene. They can see themselves as the author wants, I don't care.

I see no parallel with the real world as a culture. As extremism, yes, many exemples…

You have a hard time with things like metaphor and allegory then, I take it...?

[tuck frump]

Why is Wanda a sinner and Apocalypse gets to play High Priest? Why does Sinister get a bar?

Everyone deserves a bar you monster.

[LordUltimus]

But his methods are now pragmatic and he prioritizes the well being of his people whereas he used to prioritize humans well being while hoping for their gratitude

Considering all the times he's wiped humans memories without their consent, I don't see how he hasn't been prioritizing mutants before or not being pragmatic.

[LordUltimus]

I’m curious. Can you name one instance in the real world where an oppressed minority has ‘taken it, smiled, and hoped’ and actually succeeded? Because that isn’t how the world works. It’s a wonderful dream, but it’s a child’s dream, ignorant of the bigger picture and how the world actually works. No minority, no oppressed culture, has EVER had their oppressors say, “Wow, you’ve been SO polite while we exploited your labor, devalued your lives, kidnapped and brainwashed your children, erased your culture to the best of our ability. Here, HAVE your land/culture/identity back! Good for you for not getting uppity!”

Ghandi.

10 char.

[Ferro]

Why is Wanda a sinner and Apocalypse gets to play High Priest? Why does Sinister get a bar?

because krakoa has its rules and its the place where they can do that, thats my whole point, their sins are not gone they are just in a place that absolves them.
they are the same, their sins will never have consequences because they will never be at the mercy of justice, those 2 by staying in krakoa, and wanda by her avenger status

[Rosebunse]

Kinda wish we can move on from the Wanda stuff.

Part of the genius of Hickman's concept is that he's taken the energy of modern conversations about race and identity and hitched it to a franchise that's mostly about powerful people LARPing as the equivalent of real-life oppressed minorities.

I don't mean that as a criticism of Hickman. That is well-known as the problem with the mutant metaphor and some of the things that have been attached to it, most famously Claremont turning Magneto into a survivor of the world's most famous real-life genocide to make his fears for mutants (i.e. incredibly powerful people) seem more justified.

What Hickman figured out how to do is to create a situation where the mutants aren't clearly oppressed, so there's none of the usual shame involved in contrasting them with real-life people with real-life problems, and so readers are free to see them either as rebels against respectability politics, or powerful people enjoying (and sometimes abusing) their power.

Agreed! It's honestly quite something. And it's allowed all of us to make some very valid points.

I think the whole thing is creepy, Krakoa will burn to the ground, but Hickman has taken a potentially problematic and dull storyline and turned it into a fun and challenging read.

Everyone deserves a bar you monster.

He can have a bar in the pit! It would be lovely!

[legion_quest]

My opinion belongs to me: I see them as humans with a X-gene. They can see themselves as the author wants, I don't care.

I see no parallel with the real world as a culture. As extremism, yes, many exemples…

I think this is one of the problems of the X-Men; they started out as being a veiled attempt to write a book about racism, but featuring a bunch of privileged white teens. It was a clever way to approach the subject in an era when writing an outright book about minorities would be unlikely to get published in the mainstream. Over the years, they have become a catch all, the whole idea of the X-Men is the majority vs the scary other. The problem is that as society has changed the analogy hasnt changed with it, so it rings false when examined too closely.

I believe that is one of the points Hickman is going to make by the end of all this.

[zinderel]

Why is Wanda a sinner and Apocalypse gets to play High Priest? Why does Sinister get a bar?

As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread and literally every other thread about the subject, Wanda is singled out for demonization because she very nearly succeeded in the thing humans have been trying to accomplish since learning mutants existed. She targeted an entire race for the sins of one man, and were it not for the likes of the X-Men and Doctor Strange deflecting at least some of her mad curse, ALL mutants would have been wiped out.

Because she got all up in her fee-fees about her dad, and wanted to teach him a lesson...by wiping out an entire race.

Apocalypse waged wars. In some timelines, he is responsible for genocide. In this timeline, the main timeline, NOTHING he has done comes anywhere near as close to wiping out an entire species as Wanda’s mad curse.