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  1. #1651
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I think it's one of the things that annoys the most in this run: there's no different ideologies.
    Before, you had Xavier and the X-men, Magneto and the Brotherhood, and then other groups popped up: the mutants had the choice. And the reader had the choice to be on a side or another. (Well, it was usually written from the X-men's point of view and they represented the good… Still, there were a lot of discussions about who was right and who was wrong.)
    Either you're remembering the XVerse through rose colored nostalgia or creating a false narrative. sure there were X-Groups and self styled Evil extremist and those were the 2main groups but it's not as if the reader had a choice which story they followed. can you think of a book that followed a group of 'evil' Mutants? (other than the brotherhood) X-Men, X-Force, X-Factor, eXcalibur, New Mutants, Generation X, etc all fall under the 'Protecting a world that hates and Fears them' ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Now, every mutant is in the same group, a broad coalition and so either you are with the them and their dubious leadership and passive crowd or with the 'evil humans who persecute mutants'.

    I don't find that very appealing.
    Maybe you should try and change your group? see if you enjoy the stories from that perspective
    GrindrStone(D)

  2. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Either you're remembering the XVerse through rose colored nostalgia or creating a false narrative. sure there were X-Groups and self styled Evil extremist and those were the 2main groups but it's not as if the reader had a choice which story they followed. can you think of a book that followed a group of 'evil' Mutants? (other than the brotherhood) X-Men, X-Force, X-Factor, eXcalibur, New Mutants, Generation X, etc all fall under the 'Protecting a world that hates and Fears them' ideology
    Those books had groups which had seperate ideologies from their enemies, like the Brotherhood and other self styled mutant supremacists of various flavours. Now they all formed one group with the X-men, blurring the lines where Apocalypse murdering mutants is a public spectacle backed by the government which includes the highest ranking X-men leaders.

    Why is the "evil" in quotes? Magneto's group was originally called the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. The Hellfire Club, Sinister's groups and Apocalypse's cults being called evil wouldn't be a hard argument to make. Unless you're a fan of their ideologies rather than Xavier's dream.

    Maybe you should try and change your group? see if you enjoy the stories from that perspective
    The X-men have had hits and misses. Sabretooth? Didn't do anything. Magneto? He switches every so often and makes progress but overall he remains a mutant supremist terrorist who doesn't value human life. He continues not to have paid for his numerous crimes, as well. This is a man who has released two EMP's globally which have knocked out electronics world wide that killed millions of people. Emma Frost is a success. Krakatoa, so far, has backfired spectacularly and prominent X-men are figuring that out, like Nightcrawler and Jean Grey.

  3. #1653
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Correct but Charles and Erik know and they are trusted, for better or for worse.
    It's a solid hypothesis, of course: maybe those two are publicly vouching for them, or maybe they are not but because they are working with them, the Kraked perceive those villains with indulgent eyes.
    But we haven't seen any hint of that in the books, so people IRL can absolutely question the Kraked's lenience toward said villains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Characters change and morph all the time. People who say this "oh they are not acting like the characters we know" The first thing I ask in response is what era are you talking about. Very rarely does a character not change if they have been around for decades.
    There's a world of difference between characters changing other time on the page, and characters changing other time off-panel.
    To this day, we still have no whiff of clue on the period of transition reconciling the end of the Gold/Red/Blue era and the beginning of HoX/PoX.
    It's the forgotten months in the comics, and given how vastly different were the relationships and attitudes of the characters from one era to the other, it is legitimate to Wonder about the Hows and the Whys.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 03-04-2020 at 03:35 AM.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  4. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Why is the "evil" in quotes? Magneto's group was originally called the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. The Hellfire Club, Sinister's groups and Apocalypse's cults being called evil wouldn't be a hard argument to make. Unless you're a fan of their ideologies rather than Xavier's dream.
    It's baffling to me that anyone has a problem with this being seen as a problem. POX#6 makes it crystal clear via Moira's revelatory talk with Xavier and her subsequent journal notes that, a) she sees Xavier's dream of mutant/human co-existence as a mistake that she has to break him free of if her grand plan is ever going to stand a chance of working, and b) that she has broadly succeeded in this goal at the price of fracturing Xavier's psyche.

    Krakoa isn't Xavier's Dream given life, it's not even an amalgamation of Xavier's utopian dream with Magneto's extremist concept of attack being the best form of defence. Krakoa is a part of Moira's grand plan to prevent mutantkind's extinction/irrelevance by strangling Homo Novissma in its cradle, which will naturally require her 'breaking' the X-Men out of their naive affection for "those people" and instilling an Us/Them Worthy/Unworthy Superior/Inferior foundation into Krakoan culture to harden the entire nation for the war of extermination to come. And who is her chosen General in this war? It's the big, blue badass who would have won the war in Life 9 if it hadn't been for Nimrod's birth and Sinister's betrayal, and who is currently to be seen stocking their arsenal with mutant magic and forging an army of soldiers dedicated to dying for their people via the Crucible.

    Yeah, it's a problem. It's good to see that more and more of the X-Men are starting to become aware of it.

  5. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Those books had groups which had seperate ideologies from their enemies, like the Brotherhood and other self styled mutant supremacists of various flavours. Now they all formed one group with the X-men, blurring the lines where Apocalypse murdering mutants is a public spectacle backed by the government which includes the highest ranking X-men leaders.

    Why is the "evil" in quotes? Magneto's group was originally called the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. The Hellfire Club, Sinister's groups and Apocalypse's cults being called evil wouldn't be a hard argument to make. Unless you're a fan of their ideologies rather than Xavier's dream.



    The X-men have had hits and misses. Sabretooth? Didn't do anything. Magneto? He switches every so often and makes progress but overall he remains a mutant supremist terrorist who doesn't value human life. He continues not to have paid for his numerous crimes, as well. This is a man who has released two EMP's globally which have knocked out electronics world wide that killed millions of people. Emma Frost is a success. Krakatoa, so far, has backfired spectacularly and prominent X-men are figuring that out, like Nightcrawler and Jean Grey.
    "Krakoa , so far , has backfired spectacularly "???
    Either I missed this spectacular backfire or you're from a future time zone !
    While I suspect something spectacular may occur in time , as of yet ,nothing .
    Hints ,yes , spectacular ,no.

  6. #1656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    "Krakoa , so far , has backfired spectacularly "???
    Either I missed this spectacular backfire or you're from a future time zone !
    While I suspect something spectacular may occur in time , as of yet ,nothing .
    Hints ,yes , spectacular ,no.
    The X-men's ideology lost against the Crucible, not only occurring in front of their faces but was voted to be approved by the government they built. That's backfiring spectacularly and this is early days into Krakatoa. Things are only going to get worse from here, Hickman's not been subtle about that. This wouldn't be the first project at Marvel where he deconstructed heroes who embrace Hard (Wo)Men Making Hard Decisions. Avengers, for instance.

  7. #1657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    "Krakoa , so far , has backfired spectacularly "???
    Either I missed this spectacular backfire or you're from a future time zone !
    While I suspect something spectacular may occur in time , as of yet ,nothing .
    Hints ,yes , spectacular ,no.
    Actually , I suppose the orgies have been pretty spectacular but that's hardly a backfire.

  8. #1658
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    Actually , I suppose the orgies have been pretty spectacular but that's hardly a backfire.
    And the parties...don't forget the never ending, krak-induced parties. I can tell you first hand, the music and light-shows there are magnificently spectacular.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  9. #1659
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullviahomo View Post
    It's baffling to me that anyone has a problem with this being seen as a problem. POX#6 makes it crystal clear via Moira's revelatory talk with Xavier and her subsequent journal notes that, a) she sees Xavier's dream of mutant/human co-existence as a mistake that she has to break him free of if her grand plan is ever going to stand a chance of working, and b) that she has broadly succeeded in this goal at the price of fracturing Xavier's psyche.

    Krakoa isn't Xavier's Dream given life, it's not even an amalgamation of Xavier's utopian dream with Magneto's extremist concept of attack being the best form of defence. Krakoa is a part of Moira's grand plan to prevent mutantkind's extinction/irrelevance by strangling Homo Novissma in its cradle, which will naturally require her 'breaking' the X-Men out of their naive affection for "those people" and instilling an Us/Them Worthy/Unworthy Superior/Inferior foundation into Krakoan culture to harden the entire nation for the war of extermination to come. And who is her chosen General in this war? It's the big, blue badass who would have won the war in Life 9 if it hadn't been for Nimrod's birth and Sinister's betrayal, and who is currently to be seen stocking their arsenal with mutant magic and forging an army of soldiers dedicated to dying for their people via the Crucible.

    Yeah, it's a problem. It's good to see that more and more of the X-Men are starting to become aware of it.
    This makes no sense, they cant go to war, they have lost all the times.

    For me, Moira is broken too, 9/10 she achieve the same result even if we ignored the rest of the marvel universe bad futures, the rest of xmen bad futures.

    Is too suspicious that you can change past events and always ending Nimroe.

    There is something that we dont know, she maybe suspect something, that maybe someone similar to her is working with the enemy.

  10. #1660
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullviahomo View Post
    It's baffling to me that anyone has a problem with this being seen as a problem. POX#6 makes it crystal clear via Moira's revelatory talk with Xavier and her subsequent journal notes that, a) she sees Xavier's dream of mutant/human co-existence as a mistake that she has to break him free of if her grand plan is ever going to stand a chance of working, and b) that she has broadly succeeded in this goal at the price of fracturing Xavier's psyche.

    Krakoa isn't Xavier's Dream given life, it's not even an amalgamation of Xavier's utopian dream with Magneto's extremist concept of attack being the best form of defence. Krakoa is a part of Moira's grand plan to prevent mutantkind's extinction/irrelevance by strangling Homo Novissma in its cradle, which will naturally require her 'breaking' the X-Men out of their naive affection for "those people" and instilling an Us/Them Worthy/Unworthy Superior/Inferior foundation into Krakoan culture to harden the entire nation for the war of extermination to come. And who is her chosen General in this war? It's the big, blue badass who would have won the war in Life 9 if it hadn't been for Nimrod's birth and Sinister's betrayal, and who is currently to be seen stocking their arsenal with mutant magic and forging an army of soldiers dedicated to dying for their people via the Crucible.

    Yeah, it's a problem. It's good to see that more and more of the X-Men are starting to become aware of it.
    But they cant go to war, they had lost all the times.

    For me, Moira is broken too, 9/10 she achieve the same result even if we ignored the rest of the marvel universe bad futures or the rest of xmen bad futures.

    Is too suspicious that you can change past events and always ending "Nimroed"

    There is something that we dont know, she maybe suspect something, that maybe someone similar to her is working with the enemy.
    Last edited by Lapsus; 03-04-2020 at 04:53 AM.

  11. #1661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    And the parties...don't forget the never ending, krak-induced parties. I can tell you first hand, the music and light-shows there are magnificently spectacular.
    It's funny how anti Krakoa some people are , I'm really envious !

  12. #1662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The X-men's ideology lost against the Crucible, not only occurring in front of their faces but was voted to be approved by the government they built. That's backfiring spectacularly and this is early days into Krakatoa. Things are only going to get worse from here, Hickman's not been subtle about that. This wouldn't be the first project at Marvel where he deconstructed heroes who embrace Hard (Wo)Men Making Hard Decisions. Avengers, for instance.
    This was a huge loss and it just shows how little power the X-Men have on the Council, especially against a force like Apocalypse. And let's remember, one of those who likely voted for it was Mystique and we know she is trying to burn everything down. This means that at least one member voted Yes on this with the intent that it would destabilize Krakoa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    But they cant go to war, they had lost all the times.

    For me, Moira is broken too, 9/10 she achieve the same result even if we ignored the rest of the marvel universe bad futures or the rest of xmen bad futures.

    Is too suspicious that you can change past events and always ending "Nimroed"

    There is something that we dont know, she maybe suspect something, that maybe someone similar to her is working with the enemy.
    But we don't always get to Nimrod, not in every future. The only futures that are consistent are Moira's own. Maybe she's the problem and she doesn't even realize it?

  13. #1663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    But they cant go to war, they had lost all the times.

    For me, Moira is broken too, 9/10 she achieve the same result even if we ignored the rest of the marvel universe bad futures or the rest of xmen bad futures.

    Is too suspicious that you can change past events and always ending "Nimroed"

    There is something that we dont know, she maybe suspect something, that maybe someone similar to her is working with the enemy.
    Maybe the real answer is partnering up with Nimrod, get him on the Quiet Council. I don't know whether I'm joking or being serious with this LOL It's not like he'd be the worst person they'd offered that invitation to, I don't think he ruled the horrible timeline he's from in the future while Apocalypse did twice.

  14. #1664
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Either you're remembering the XVerse through rose colored nostalgia or creating a false narrative. sure there were X-Groups and self styled Evil extremist and those were the 2main groups but it's not as if the reader had a choice which story they followed. can you think of a book that followed a group of 'evil' Mutants? (other than the brotherhood) X-Men, X-Force, X-Factor, eXcalibur, New Mutants, Generation X, etc all fall under the 'Protecting a world that hates and Fears them' ideology
    Yes, but the side of good was challenged…
    It was even Magneto's function to be Xavier's counterpart, to call ‘his friend’ 's beliefs into question.

    True, it's hard to say what wanted Magneto because it changed so often but, generally, in Claremont's characterization, he didn't want something very different from Xavier but he didn't think it could be achieved without radical means ('Charles, you're wrong, the human will never learn, I know them…')

    So, for Xavier, means were very important. It is difficult, for me, to call this helmeted figure, Xavier because so much ingrained in him this belief was. Hickman said that Xavier was someone very pragmatic but he is wrong: there was always in him a tension between pragmatism and ideal, what he owes to the mutants and his sense of right and wrong. (I definitely can't find this page where Xavier explains this to Tony Stark, it was written by Hickman!)

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Maybe you should try and change your group? see if you enjoy the stories from that perspective
    I don't have one. It's one thing to be on the good side when there's one. It's another to see groups fighting for dominance, each one having his motives and reasons.
    In this case, I feel lucky to be just a spectactor of a fictional war and not a participant.

  15. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    But they cant go to war, they had lost all the times.

    For me, Moira is broken too, 9/10 she achieve the same result even if we ignored the rest of the marvel universe bad futures or the rest of xmen bad futures.

    Is too suspicious that you can change past events and always ending "Nimroed"

    There is something that we dont know, she maybe suspect something, that maybe someone similar to her is working with the enemy.

    There will be a war. There's always a war.

    The only Lives in which we don't see the war are Lives 1 and 2 and 3, when Moira lived to old age as a normal human and didn't even know mutants existed (yes, that is a bit odd), when she died too young to see the war start, and when her attempt to 'cure' mutation ended with her being killed by mutants who were already fighting the opening exchanges of it.

    In Lives 4 and 5 she saw evidence that it was inevitable. The rise of Mutants would lead to the rise of the Machines, and no matter what they did to avoid it the Machines would always be sent after them. You could posit that Life 6 was Moira's attempt to outlast the Rise of the Machines and see if there was any hope she could glean from the future, but all she learned was that the Machines would evolve to become even better at killing mutants than the ones she'd already seen, and that they weren't the real enemy anyway, because even if mutantkind - did - outlast them, Homo Novissma would emerge to finish the job.

    Life 7 was where she learned that the emergence of the Machines was unavoidable. At a certain technological level AI would always be discovered, and the emergence of Homo Superior would always influence the form this AI would initially take (anti-mutant killing machines)*.

    Lives 8 and 9 were Moira's attempt to win the inevitable war early, putting humanity under mutantkind's thumb before the Machines could overwhelm them. It didn't work because, a) Xavier sided with the Superhumans to bring Magneto down, and b) Even without Xavier around to pollute the minds of impressionable young mutants with namby pamby pacifism she'd underestimated the degree to which a pro-active mutant attack on humanity would spur on the evolution of the Machines, resulting in a Nimrod ruling the Man/Machine Ascendancy and creating the 'Bath' process that would have formed the core of the more advanced Nimrod the Greater we saw in Life 6 if Moira hadn't suicided to start Life X.

    Life X is Moira pulling together all she's learned and breaking "all the rules" in order to give mutantkind a chance of winning the war by stacking the deck in their favour. Combining all of mutantkind's assets for the first time and waging the war on multiple fronts at once. Is she 'broken', oh hell yeah. The things she's seen and experienced would break anyone, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a plan. She says in POX#6 that, left to itself, history will follow the same path, and that path always leads to Sentinels and Sentinels always lead to Nimrod and Nimrod will always lead to Homo Novissma, so all she's doing is trying to find the right combination of obstacles to put a fork in that path and give mutantkind a chance of winning the war that will inevitably come.

    Is there someone advising the enemy? Maybe. The exposure of Xorn's Black Hole at the end of Life 9 could have warned the Dominions what was going to happen and they could be showing an interest in this timeline. Or Sinister might have found out Moira's secret (surely he would have checked out a sample of the DNA of a woman who could produce something as exciting as Proteus?) and he's playing both ends against the middle, as he did in Life 9.

    It'll be fun finding out.


    * Unless someone with 'future' knowledge of the base-code that all Sentinels and Nimrods operate on was able to mess around with them at a primitive stage in their development and install a Trojan Horse virus that would transform them from mutant-hunters into mutant-protectors, like the Sentinels in the House of M. They wouldn't want to tip their hand too early, of course, in case human smartarses were able to identify and strip out the pro-mutant code in later Sentinel models, but maybe as a failsafe should Nimrod emerge despite their best efforts. I wonder if there's anything in the canon about a Nimrod breaking its programming to become pro-mutant? (strokes chin and cackles)
    Last edited by Nullviahomo; 03-04-2020 at 06:27 AM.

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