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  1. #1681
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasmineW View Post
    So what's that got to do with X-Men 7? I deliberately avoid those preview threads NOT to be spoiled.
    Sorry then.

  2. #1682
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I'm pointing out that Krakoa keeps representing itself as being more moral and perfect than all the human nations, and yet keeps justifying it's shadier actions by saying that that's what all the human nations are doing.

    One would think that a perfect mutant utopia wouldn't have to resort to immoral human methods.
    Except they've never said it's perfect. And their nation is being targeted by murderous hate groups.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  3. #1683
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Except they've never said it's perfect. And their nation is being targeted by murderous hate groups.
    They've described it as a utopia countless times.

    I'm not saying that they're wrong to make it, I'm saying that in doing so they're every bit as hypocritical as the other human nations in spite of them insisting that they're better.
    Last edited by LordUltimus; 03-04-2020 at 04:20 PM.

  4. #1684
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    They've described it as a utopia countless times.

    I'm not saying that they're wrong to make it, I'm saying that in doing so they're every bit as hypocritical as the other human nations in spite of them insisting that they're better.
    But we've already seen numerous cracks in the facade so I'm not sure where we're going here. Yes some of the mutants believe they are better than humans but none of them are saying mutants are perfect, nor that nation-building is.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  5. #1685
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullviahomo View Post
    There will be a war. There's always a war.

    The only Lives in which we don't see the war are Lives 1 and 2 and 3, when Moira lived to old age as a normal human and didn't even know mutants existed (yes, that is a bit odd), when she died too young to see the war start, and when her attempt to 'cure' mutation ended with her being killed by mutants who were already fighting the opening exchanges of it.

    In Lives 4 and 5 she saw evidence that it was inevitable. The rise of Mutants would lead to the rise of the Machines, and no matter what they did to avoid it the Machines would always be sent after them. You could posit that Life 6 was Moira's attempt to outlast the Rise of the Machines and see if there was any hope she could glean from the future, but all she learned was that the Machines would evolve to become even better at killing mutants than the ones she'd already seen, and that they weren't the real enemy anyway, because even if mutantkind - did - outlast them, Homo Novissma would emerge to finish the job.

    Life 7 was where she learned that the emergence of the Machines was unavoidable. At a certain technological level AI would always be discovered, and the emergence of Homo Superior would always influence the form this AI would initially take (anti-mutant killing machines)*.

    Lives 8 and 9 were Moira's attempt to win the inevitable war early, putting humanity under mutantkind's thumb before the Machines could overwhelm them. It didn't work because, a) Xavier sided with the Superhumans to bring Magneto down, and b) Even without Xavier around to pollute the minds of impressionable young mutants with namby pamby pacifism she'd underestimated the degree to which a pro-active mutant attack on humanity would spur on the evolution of the Machines, resulting in a Nimrod ruling the Man/Machine Ascendancy and creating the 'Bath' process that would have formed the core of the more advanced Nimrod the Greater we saw in Life 6 if Moira hadn't suicided to start Life X.

    Life X is Moira pulling together all she's learned and breaking "all the rules" in order to give mutantkind a chance of winning the war by stacking the deck in their favour. Combining all of mutantkind's assets for the first time and waging the war on multiple fronts at once. Is she 'broken', oh hell yeah. The things she's seen and experienced would break anyone, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a plan. She says in POX#6 that, left to itself, history will follow the same path, and that path always leads to Sentinels and Sentinels always lead to Nimrod and Nimrod will always lead to Homo Novissma, so all she's doing is trying to find the right combination of obstacles to put a fork in that path and give mutantkind a chance of winning the war that will inevitably come.

    Is there someone advising the enemy? Maybe. The exposure of Xorn's Black Hole at the end of Life 9 could have warned the Dominions what was going to happen and they could be showing an interest in this timeline. Or Sinister might have found out Moira's secret (surely he would have checked out a sample of the DNA of a woman who could produce something as exciting as Proteus?) and he's playing both ends against the middle, as he did in Life 9.

    It'll be fun finding out.


    * Unless someone with 'future' knowledge of the base-code that all Sentinels and Nimrods operate on was able to mess around with them at a primitive stage in their development and install a Trojan Horse virus that would transform them from mutant-hunters into mutant-protectors, like the Sentinels in the House of M. They wouldn't want to tip their hand too early, of course, in case human smartarses were able to identify and strip out the pro-mutant code in later Sentinel models, but maybe as a failsafe should Nimrod emerge despite their best efforts. I wonder if there's anything in the canon about a Nimrod breaking its programming to become pro-mutant? (strokes chin and cackles)
    I doubt that we are going to see any war in the scale of human vs mutants, just the same old conflict with evil parties.

    My problem is with the inevitability of the future, i dont believe it, is too simple, any changed she made and she ends in the same spot, how ?

    Lets ignore all the bad futures of the past, both from the X-men and from the Marvel universe because these is Hickman story.

    Even then i find hardly suspicious that no matter what Moira does, Nimrod is the result.

  6. #1686
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    I am glad the question of what to do about "defective" mutants got addressed. The whole concept about purposely dying in order to be revived as a "whole" again. Interesting.

    Yes this made Krakoa feel VERY cult-like again.

    I am glad they kept emphasizing Melody's choice to take part. That was important.

    It also humanized the situation some by showing Sam get upset.

    Kurt was hinting more about how Krakoa is somehow "not all it's cracked up to be" meh fine.

    I liked the weirdness with Doug somehow having Warlock one panel, then not the next. Interesting.

    Exodus definitely gave off "High On Being Mutant" vibes but I was here for it.

    The Wanda bashing was hilarious and I'm sure is a big reason this thread has 113 pages.

    Overall good issue, creepy but also made sense.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  7. #1687
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I'm pointing out that Krakoa keeps representing itself as being more moral and perfect than all the human nations, and yet keeps justifying it's shadier actions by saying that that's what all the human nations are doing.

    One would think that a perfect mutant utopia wouldn't have to resort to immoral human methods.
    You seem to be looking at this in a very black and white way . Is it not possible to be both" more moral" and also less than perfect ?

    From the point of view of the "mutant on the steet", Krakoa may well be Utopia , no child Labour ,no slavery , no hunger , no police brutality , plenty of orgies ,etc. Does that mean it does not need the instruments of government ? ( which Xavier called distasteful )
    Krakoa can be "morally superior " without being perfect.

    I'm sure someone more familiar with the U.S. Could come up with some examples of " moral failure" there and get the U.S. Would remain an example of freedom and other virtues.


    Perhaps it's worth mentioning that many Utoias in fiction are based on slave Labour . Not the case on Krakoa but illustrates some ambiguity in the word utopia.



    Actually , the more I think about this the more confused I get.
    Have the mutants ever claimed moral perfection.?
    What morality are we talking about ? Christian ? Kurtz new religion ? Apocalypse , his morality I'm sure is unique.
    Christian morality ( mainstream) accepts the role of the state and it's apparatus.

    Sorry my mind started wandering.
    The mutants are developing their own state , culture and morality , while operating within the international structure and so they will have to compromise. (Worth noting they hope to influence these structures.

    I've believed for a long time the mutants should leave Earth and start fresh.
    Last edited by Nigel909; 03-05-2020 at 03:42 AM.

  8. #1688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    I doubt that we are going to see any war in the scale of human vs mutants, just the same old conflict with evil parties.

    My problem is with the inevitability of the future, i dont believe it, is too simple, any changed she made and she ends in the same spot, how ?

    Lets ignore all the bad futures of the past, both from the X-men and from the Marvel universe because these is Hickman story.

    Even then i find hardly suspicious that no matter what Moira does, Nimrod is the result.


    The inevitability of the future is dealt with in HOX/POX. Mutants being wiped out by Machines is what is - supposed - to happen, that's the normal future predicated on the human reaction to the rise of mutantkind as their evolutionary successors, the technological break-point for AI occurring at around the same time, and the existence of superhumans giving humanity a bio-engineering solution to natural obsolescence. There's always a war because there's always species survival as a cassus belli. You can't unring that bell.

    Moira's problem is that she's just one woman with a lot of knowledge trying to change history against the flow of events. She hasn't succeeded so far because in every life she's tried "one cool trick" at a time and had no back-up once it's failed. Being outlaw superheroes didn't work. Segregation didn't work. Whatever she tried in Life 6 didn't work. Killing off the Trasks didn't work. Inciting Magneto to take over the world didn't work. Helping Apocalypse impose his dystopia on the world didn't work. In every case the existence of mutants led to the exploitation of AI and robotics in order to create a Sentinel army that simply overwhelmed them. That's why her plan this time is to unite ALL of the mutants under a leadership that knows what the future holds and hope that this time it's possible to bully, buy-off and generally stymie the anti-mutant factions amongst humanity long enough for Krakoan mutantkind to become an integral part of Earth culture and/or produce an army of ass-kicking Chimeras to win the war when it starts.

    Nimrod is inevitable. In fact it's surprising to me that Orchis wouldn't have already had one. Surely one of the factions within Orchis would have had samples of Nimrod technology from somewhere, or at the very least have had enough knowledge of what Nimrod was to put them on a path to replicate one? The Nimrod from the DOFP timeline was around for a while. Bastion had Nimrod tech within him. Then there were the dozens of Nimrods who came through the temporal rift to attack San Francisco during the Utopian Era. They know what a Nimrod is, and at the end of the day it's just a natural extrapolation of exiting Sentinel technology. All that fighting back successfully against Sentinels does is speed up the day when some bright spark makes that jump to produce a Nimrod and restore humanity's advantage in the Genetic War against mutantkind, which is why one of the secret pre-Krakoan projects Moira, Xavier and Magneto invested in was tracking the kind of technological activity necessary for a Nimrod event.

  9. #1689
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    You seem to be looking at this in a very black and white way . Is it not possible to be both" more moral" and also less than perfect ?

    From the point of view of the "mutant on the steet", Krakoa may well be Utopia , no child Labour ,no slavery , no hunger , no police brutality , plenty of orgies ,etc. Does that mean it does not need the instruments of government ? ( which Xavier called distasteful )
    Krakoa can be "morally superior " without being perfect.

    I'm sure someone more familiar with the U.S. Could come up with some examples of " moral failure" there and get the U.S. Would remain an example of freedom and other virtues.


    Perhaps it's worth mentioning that many Utoias in fiction are based on slave Labour . Not the case on Krakoa but illustrates some ambiguity in the word utopia.



    Actually , the more I think about this the more confused I get.
    Have the mutants ever claimed moral perfection.?
    What morality are we talking about ? Christian ? Kurtz new religion ? Apocalypse , his morality I'm sure is unique.
    Christian morality ( mainstream) accepts the role of the state and it's apparatus.

    Sorry my mind started wandering.
    The mutants are developing their own state , culture and morality , while operating within the international structure and so they will have to compromise. (Worth noting they hope to influence these structures.

    I've believed for a long time the mutants should leave Earth and start fresh.
    But the island is almost self sufficent, it has nothing to do with society itself.

  10. #1690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel909 View Post
    You seem to be looking at this in a very black and white way . Is it not possible to be both" more moral" and also less than perfect ?
    It is, and the mutants have gone passed that. Humanity has done unspeakable evil things to mutants and mutants are mirroring back x 10. Recently a ruling member of the Quiet Council admitting to destroying an entire age of humanity to win arguments with diplomats. Who was this? Apocalypse.

    From the point of view of the "mutant on the steet", Krakoa may well be Utopia , no child Labour ,no slavery , no hunger , no police brutality , plenty of orgies ,etc. Does that mean it does not need the instruments of government ? ( which Xavier called distasteful )
    Krakoa can be "morally superior " without being perfect.
    The average mutant civilian isn't going to know everything Krakatoa does anymore than the average citizen does in other countries, why would you use that as the definitive opinion on the country when you have high profile X-men entrenched in the government? There have been various people like that who are having doubts, why shouldn't their opinions be ignored? We don't know all the specifics about Krakatoa society, at the various levels. It's not like they don't have mutant on mutant crime - there's a series about mutant police detectives.

    Xavier is a head of this government, curious how he'd come to that conclusion. The old Professor X is clearly dead, the Xavier who took his place is someone who was broken and corrupted by Moira X.

    It's far too early to claim Krakatoa is a utopia.

    I'm sure someone more familiar with the U.S. Could come up with some examples of " moral failure" there and get the U.S. Would remain an example of freedom and other virtues.
    How does the US doing bad things absolve mutants when they do it? The premise of Krakatoa is that they're superior to mankind yet they repeat our mistakes.


    Perhaps it's worth mentioning that many Utoias in fiction are based on slave Labour . Not the case on Krakoa but illustrates some ambiguity in the word utopia.

    We don't know all the secrets to Krakatoa, this isn't IT. We don't know the details about the transition period, either.

  11. #1691
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    EDIT: Sorry, wrong thread.
    Last edited by LordUltimus; 03-05-2020 at 09:23 AM.

  12. #1692
    Spectacular Member Storm17's Avatar
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    Ok! So I'm a little late! What was the deal with cypher and the guy???

  13. #1693
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm17 View Post
    Ok! So I'm a little late! What was the deal with cypher and the guy???
    Probably part of the mystery of what happened when Charles first brought Doug to Krakoa in PoX.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #1694
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Rereading (again) and this quote from Nightcrawler really encapsulates this new XM-era, for me.

    "...Krakoa asks hard questions of me. Every day there's some new, amazing something to believe in...and all it costs is the suspension of everything I used to believe..."

    LOVE. IT!!!!
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  15. #1695
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    They've described it as a utopia countless times.

    I'm not saying that they're wrong to make it, I'm saying that in doing so they're every bit as hypocritical as the other human nations in spite of them insisting that they're better.
    They haven’t even described it as a ‘utopia’ once. In fact, Xavier even says “is what we have perfect? no. what is? but it’s a start— and a good one.”

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