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  1. #196
    Amazing Member jonincentex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    That is not accurate...as soon as Kitty contacts Jean via video conference and tells her that Rachel is gone and took out Rockslide, Jean says Cassandra Nova is in Rachel's head, and that she'll handle it.

    Cassandra Nova exploded the ambassador's head in the first issue...thought she exploded Jean in the issue where Jean rescued Rachel thanks to Jean's telepathic projection...and she exploded a group of soldiers in the helicarrier aircraft in X-Men Red #11....and she was attempting to do it to Jean for real, as Jean told Captain America, but Jean was constantly preventing her

    The whole run is Cassandra Nova underestimating Jean and being shown up and learning Jean doesn't need the Phoenix Force to beat her. The whole reason she goes to Rachel to use against Jean instead of Jean directly is because, as she tells Rachel, "You are strong Rachel Grey. But you are not your mother, not yet. You are no threat to me"

    Jean is.

    You're dismissing Jean too much here...in X-Men Red, Cassandra Nova starts off by saying Jean is not Phoenix anymore (and therefore is no threat to her), but as the series progresses, she sees how formidable Jean is...she directly says that Jean is stronger than before...mind you their last encounter was when Jean was connecting to the Phoenix Force

    When she goes to rescue Rachel, Jean's entire presence there is an astral form that Nova is not even aware of. Jean tells Nova she knows she's afraid

    In the finale Jean is able to keep Nova out of her mind even without the Magneto helmet, and prevent her from doing that body explosion tactic she's so fond of.
    I had to go reread the 11 issues to figure out why my take was so different from yours. It's not so much that either of us are wrong, but more a matter of the assumptions you make that I don't. Assumptions that have to be made, because the writer leaves it unclear.

    Since Cassandra had access to all of Xavier's experiences and memories, she knows what younger Jean was like before she was bonded to the Phoenix.

    When confronted with Jean in X-men Red she faces a Jean sans the Phoenix Force.

    For her comparison to make any sense she'd have to compare a younger Jean to the Jean she is facing.

    The comparison she makes falls apart if Jean boosted by the Phoenix force is what she was referring to, because Jean+Phoenix is on the level of Galactus, the Celestials, Eternity Etc. If the writer intended that, then the comic would have ended right then and there. Cassandra at her most powerful is nothing compared to the Phoenix force.

    I don't think I minimized Jean's powers in X-men red. I just noticed how much she had to depend on her teammates to beat Cassandra in their battles. You don't seem to acknowledge how critical they were to her winning or that Jean wearing Cerebro.

    Cerebro dramatically boosts a telepath's powers. Jean was wearing Cerebro when she confronted Cassandra. Cassandra had no such boost or help in any of their battles.

    In the first confrontation while Jean was wearing Cerebro, Jean was unable to keep Cassandra from getting into Cerebro despite being 1000s of miles away. Jean only pulled out a victory thanks to Storm launching a massive tidal wave that temporarily disrupted Cassandra's efforts.

    That led to the next battle involving Rachael.

    To describe it as Jean vs. Cassandra isn't quite right. Jean was wearing Cerebro and this time wearing it for battle (the writer implies she overclocked Cerebro / hardened it against another intrusion )

    Jean says the only reason she was able to free Rachael was thanks to Rachael fighting hard against Cassandra's mind control. After that fight ended, Jean said she didn't appear in person because she isn't an idiot implying she would not beat Cassandra in person.

    Her ability to fool Cassandra wasn't due to Jean's power alone. It was due to the boost she was getting from Cerebro and the assist she was getting from Rachael as she resisted Cassandra's control. I don't think the writer has to spell out that Cassandra was handicapped by the need to dedicate a lot of her power to keeping Rachael, a formidable telepath/telekinetic, under control.

    When Cassandra said she underestimated Jean she was referring to Jean's intelligence. She was supremely confident that she was so much more powerful than Jean that there was nothing Jean could do to stop her.

    She consistently underestimated Jean's resourcefulness in countering Cassandra's absolute advantage in terms of mutant power. Jean's victory was thanks to a good strategy, and not a result of Jean being more powerful.

    Generally speaking I'd agree with you that Jean is the world's most powerful or one of the top 3 most powerful telepaths.

    In this comic however the Writer throughout made it clear Cassandra was on another, higher level, and nothing makes this more clear than the final battle.

    You point out that she was able to resist Cassandra's effort to destroy her mind, but you forget that Cassandra was not just facing Jean she was also facing The Avengers (including Thor and Ms. Marvel), Namor + the military of Atlantis and Mutants as far as the eye could see while keeping thousands of humans under her mind control. With so many distractions, it shouldn't be a surprise that Jean could resist Cassandra's efforts.
    Last edited by jonincentex; 02-29-2020 at 09:32 PM.

  2. #197
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonincentex View Post
    I had to go reread the 11 issues to figure out why my take was so different from yours. It's not so much that either of us are wrong, but more a matter of the assumptions you make that I don't. Assumptions that have to be made, because the writer leaves it unclear.

    Since Cassandra had access to all of Xavier's experiences and memories, she knows what younger Jean was like before she was bonded to the Phoenix.

    When confronted with Jean in X-men Red she faces a Jean sans the Phoenix Force.

    For her comparison to make any sense she'd have to compare a younger Jean to the Jean she is facing.

    The comparison she makes falls apart if Jean boosted by the Phoenix force is what she was referring to, because Jean+Phoenix is on the level of Galactus, the Celestials, Eternity Etc. If the writer intended that, then the comic would have ended right then and there. Cassandra at her most powerful is nothing compared to the Phoenix force.

    I don't think I minimized Jean's powers in X-men red. I just noticed how much she had to depend on her teammates to beat Cassandra in their battles. You don't seem to acknowledge how critical they were to her winning or that Jean wearing Cerebro.

    Cerebro dramatically boosts a telepath's powers. Jean was wearing Cerebro when she confronted Cassandra. Cassandra had no such boost or help in any of their battles.

    In the first confrontation while Jean was wearing Cerebro, Jean was unable to keep Cassandra from getting into Cerebro despite being 1000s of miles away. Jean only pulled out a victory thanks to Storm launching a massive tidal wave that temporarily disrupted Cassandra's efforts.

    That led to the next battle involving Rachael.

    To describe it as Jean vs. Cassandra isn't quite right. Jean was wearing Cerebro and this time wearing it for battle (the writer implies she overclocked Cerebro / hardened it against another intrusion )

    Jean says the only reason she was able to free Rachael was thanks to Rachael fighting hard against Cassandra's mind control. After that fight ended, Jean said she didn't appear in person because she isn't an idiot implying she would not beat Cassandra in person.

    Her ability to fool Cassandra wasn't due to Jean's power alone. It was due to the boost she was getting from Cerebro and the assist she was getting from Rachael as she resisted Cassandra's control. I don't think the writer has to spell out that Cassandra was handicapped by the need to dedicate a lot of her power to keeping Rachael, a formidable telepath/telekinetic, under control.

    When Cassandra said she underestimated Jean she was referring to Jean's intelligence. She was supremely confident that she was so much more powerful than Jean that there was nothing Jean could do to stop her.

    She consistently underestimated Jean's resourcefulness in countering Cassandra's absolute advantage in terms of mutant power. Jean's victory was thanks to a good strategy, and not a result of Jean being more powerful.

    Generally speaking I'd agree with you that Jean is the world's most powerful or one of the top 3 most powerful telepaths.

    In this comic however the Writer throughout made it clear Cassandra was on another, higher level, and nothing makes this more clear than the final battle.

    You point out that she was able to resist Cassandra's effort to destroy her mind, but you forget that Cassandra was not just facing Jean she was also facing The Avengers (including Thor and Ms. Marvel), Namor + the military of Atlantis and Mutants as far as the eye could see while keeping thousands of humans under her mind control. With so many distractions, it shouldn't be a surprise that Jean could resist Cassandra's efforts.
    You talk about assumptions and in the same breath assume Cassandra Nova is referencing some young Jean via Xavier's memories? Their previous and first encounter was in the early arcs of NXM...that is the "than before" she is talking about. In NXM, Jean's powers were growing, this is a major theme of the run...this naturally places her in connection to the Phoenix Force. Simply put, there are degrees...Jean was holding herself back because as she tells Wolverine on Asteroid M, "if I gets to close, it replaces me". She was not cosmic level previously and up to this point in the run, and she clearly tells this to Wolverine. Since her return, and "conscious uncoupling" from the Phoenix Force, she allowing herself to grow into her full potential unfettered.

    Yes Jean used others...it's a team book, that's what's supposed to happen, especially given some new and less-frequently seen characters.

    Cerebro and variants, when written properly, is all about amplifying RANGE...not raw power. In X-Men Red Jean specifically says "If we've built it correctly, the seas should amplify my REACH more than anything built before"..."brainwaves riding ocean waves"...this was especially important because their base of operations was 3,000 below sea level. When Trinary is about to use Searebro, Jean tells her "This should expand your REACH exponentially"...again, range, not power.

    Going back to "needing help"...you gloss over the fact that it's a team book and was never going to be purely Jean vs Nova...but you also leave out all of the help Cassandra Nova needed...Storm, Forge, the sentinites,Teen Abomination, Rachel, various humans she used, oh and a literal army

    You talk about Jean not being able to keep Cassandra out of Searebro...Jean was doing a whole hell of a lot and only then could attempt an intrusion. Jean was linked to Trinary and Gabby, and in turn they were all linked to millions of sentinites around the world. She says, quoting directly, "Fine. If she's working against our sentinites, her defenses should be down. Now's as good a time as any to take her on directly"

    When she contacts Jean, she says "That's quite the undertaking, three interlinked minds connecting to millions of devices across the globe. You're well past your capacity. You've left yourself vulnerable, Jean"

    Jean mentions Rachel is fighting Nova's influence, and doesn't want to hurt Jean any more than Jean wants to hurt Rachel...they are both holding back...that in no way says that's the only way she was able to free Rachel. Jean said she's not an idiot meaning she wasn't going to leave herself defenseless against someone like Nova, she knew Nova would never hold up to a fair agreement...not that she couldn't beat her in person.

    Just because Cassandra is ruthless and evil doesn't mean she's more powerful...her exploding people? It's brutal, but Jean is capable of that as well, as she recently just casually deconstructed two hybrid creatures to the point of leaving not a trace of them. Outside of an extreme circumstance like that, Jean doesn't resort to those uses of her powers

    What the writer made clear, in every issue, was that Jean is an Omega level telepath...and he never puts Cassandra above Jean. At best, he equates them, by having Gabby tell Jean that she(Jean) is as powerful a telepath as Cassandra...so if she were crazy evil, and had a lot of minds in her thrall, what would stop her? Giving Jean the idea for the Magneto helmets.

    Re: the final confrontation with Cassandra...it wasn't about having a knock down drag out battle...it wasn't about overpowering her...Jean played a part as did the rest of her team, and it was Jean's plan period. Jean feigns defeat, Laura stabs her to distract her, Nightcrawler teleports Gabby, and Gabby punches the reprogrammed(by Trinary) sentinite into Nova's head to rehabilitate her with empathy. It was thematic...it calls back what Jean tells Hank when they're prepping to deal with Nova, she says "Cassandra has no concept of cooperation, Hank...that's how we'll beat her"...and she uses her own instrument of hate, the sentinite, against her.

    And lastly, Cassandra was not dealing with The Avengers or most of Jean's team directly....they were tasked with freeing civilians, keeping the helicarrier from crashing and how to stop or contain the nuclear reactors on the carrier.

  3. #198
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Sound View Post
    oooooooooooooooohhhh! The two kids were not named???????????????????
    The boy had such a great design. Would much prefer to see him appear again over eyesores like Glob and Eye-Boy.

  4. #199
    Amazing Member Alexi's Avatar
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    Like stated by others, beautiful surreal art but no where near as good as Morrison & Quietly's no use of dialogue. I'm guessing since Storm's up & busy in Marauders & seen on the ad for the X-Swords event that this virus will be center in her Giant Size issue & maybe touched on in the other books.

    With the legacy virus cured for a while now & death seemingly not a problem for mutants living on Krakoa, it would be interesting if this new infection somehow prevented Krakoa or the Resurrection squad from cloning bodies for the deceased.

  5. #200
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    You talk about assumptions and in the same breath assume Cassandra Nova is referencing some young Jean via Xavier's memories? Their previous and first encounter was in the early arcs of NXM...that is the "than before" she is talking about. In NXM, Jean's powers were growing, this is a major theme of the run...this naturally places her in connection to the Phoenix Force. Simply put, there are degrees...Jean was holding herself back because as she tells Wolverine on Asteroid M, "if I gets to close, it replaces me". She was not cosmic level previously and up to this point in the run, and she clearly tells this to Wolverine. Since her return, and "conscious uncoupling" from the Phoenix Force, she allowing herself to grow into her full potential unfettered.

    Yes Jean used others...it's a team book, that's what's supposed to happen, especially given some new and less-frequently seen characters.

    Cerebro and variants, when written properly, is all about amplifying RANGE...not raw power. In X-Men Red Jean specifically says "If we've built it correctly, the seas should amplify my REACH more than anything built before"..."brainwaves riding ocean waves"...this was especially important because their base of operations was 3,000 below sea level. When Trinary is about to use Searebro, Jean tells her "This should expand your REACH exponentially"...again, range, not power.

    Going back to "needing help"...you gloss over the fact that it's a team book and was never going to be purely Jean vs Nova...but you also leave out all of the help Cassandra Nova needed...Storm, Forge, the sentinites,Teen Abomination, Rachel, various humans she used, oh and a literal army

    You talk about Jean not being able to keep Cassandra out of Searebro...Jean was doing a whole hell of a lot and only then could attempt an intrusion. Jean was linked to Trinary and Gabby, and in turn they were all linked to millions of sentinites around the world. She says, quoting directly, "Fine. If she's working against our sentinites, her defenses should be down. Now's as good a time as any to take her on directly"

    When she contacts Jean, she says "That's quite the undertaking, three interlinked minds connecting to millions of devices across the globe. You're well past your capacity. You've left yourself vulnerable, Jean"

    Jean mentions Rachel is fighting Nova's influence, and doesn't want to hurt Jean any more than Jean wants to hurt Rachel...they are both holding back...that in no way says that's the only way she was able to free Rachel. Jean said she's not an idiot meaning she wasn't going to leave herself defenseless against someone like Nova, she knew Nova would never hold up to a fair agreement...not that she couldn't beat her in person.

    Just because Cassandra is ruthless and evil doesn't mean she's more powerful...her exploding people? It's brutal, but Jean is capable of that as well, as she recently just casually deconstructed two hybrid creatures to the point of leaving not a trace of them. Outside of an extreme circumstance like that, Jean doesn't resort to those uses of her powers

    What the writer made clear, in every issue, was that Jean is an Omega level telepath...and he never puts Cassandra above Jean. At best, he equates them, by having Gabby tell Jean that she(Jean) is as powerful a telepath as Cassandra...so if she were crazy evil, and had a lot of minds in her thrall, what would stop her? Giving Jean the idea for the Magneto helmets.

    Re: the final confrontation with Cassandra...it wasn't about having a knock down drag out battle...it wasn't about overpowering her...Jean played a part as did the rest of her team, and it was Jean's plan period. Jean feigns defeat, Laura stabs her to distract her, Nightcrawler teleports Gabby, and Gabby punches the reprogrammed(by Trinary) sentinite into Nova's head to rehabilitate her with empathy. It was thematic...it calls back what Jean tells Hank when they're prepping to deal with Nova, she says "Cassandra has no concept of cooperation, Hank...that's how we'll beat her"...and she uses her own instrument of hate, the sentinite, against her.

    And lastly, Cassandra was not dealing with The Avengers or most of Jean's team directly....they were tasked with freeing civilians, keeping the helicarrier from crashing and how to stop or contain the nuclear reactors on the carrier.
    Maybe I'm wrong but I never recall Cassandra having access to Xavier's memories. When she was in his body, his mind was trapped in hers. I don't recall Cassandra sharing memories with Xavier or downloading his mind or anything of the sort. Again someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, yes I agree with everything you are saying about X-men Red, Jean and Cassandra.

  6. #201
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong but I never recall Cassandra having access to Xavier's memories. When she was in his body, his mind was trapped in hers. I don't recall Cassandra sharing memories with Xavier or downloading his mind or anything of the sort. Again someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    Also, yes I agree with everything you are saying about X-men Red, Jean and Cassandra.
    Thanks...yeah I dont recall that either, as you said, she switched minds/bodies with him

  7. #202
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    Phoenixless Jean Grey putting up with Nova was fanservice and **** writing in the frist place.

  8. #203
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    I'm sorry, but after seeing that art Storm's hair deserves a solo book drawn by Dauterman
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  9. #204
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Phoenixless Jean Grey putting up with Nova was fanservice and **** writing in the frist place.
    I don't think so. That is a very subjective opinion that is not based on anything. Plus Jean is established as an omega mutant, and the X-men Forever miniseries sort of implied Jean's powers grow/evolve after being exposed to the Phoenix. Her tk was enhanced after she came out of the cocoon during the X-factor years. Her powers seem to have enhanced again after she parted ways with Phoenix. One of the main points of X-men Red was that Jean was this extremely powerful omega level telepath.

  10. #205
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Phoenixless Jean Grey putting up with Nova was fanservice and **** writing in the frist place.
    Cassandra Nova should indeed be on another level compared to most telepaths. It's why the stakes felt so high during Morrison's run and they had to use trickery to defeat her.
    Last edited by Veitha; 03-01-2020 at 10:24 AM.

  11. #206
    Ultimate Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Why is this an issue, Jean used Searebro and tricked Cassandra Nova to let Rachel go. Subsequently they had to use Magneto helmets to fight her as they were mismatched by the Uber Telepath nova. There's really nothing in Red that is a bad showing for Nova other then being an idiot for giving the X-Men Red team a week to plan an attack. Additionally Nova was mind controlling an entire army at the time

  12. #207
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Jean should be srtong enough to keep Cassandra out of her head, Jean is omega level. This is what we saw on Red

  13. #208
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Why is this an issue, Jean used Searebro and tricked Cassandra Nova to let Rachel go. Subsequently they had to use Magneto helmets to fight her as they were mismatched by the Uber Telepath nova. There's really nothing in Red that is a bad showing for Nova other then being an idiot for giving the X-Men Red team a week to plan an attack. Additionally Nova was mind controlling an entire army at the time
    I agree to an extent, and yes they did use Magneto helmets that Cassandra used tk to remove from Jean. Jean said Nova was trying to destroy her but she was still there. Both Jean and Cassandra had good showing, and on principle I think villains should outclass the heroes or else it can get boring - which I love X-men Red but it did get repetitive with Jean and her team out maneuvering Cassandra at every turn.

    Since Cassandra is an other worldly creature she probably isn't classified as a mutant proper anyway so she wouldn't factor into the omega classification.

  14. #209
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    Phoenixless Jean Grey putting up with Nova was fanservice and **** writing in the frist place.
    Only to those that sleep on Jean and her capabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Why is this an issue, Jean used Searebro and tricked Cassandra Nova to let Rachel go. Subsequently they had to use Magneto helmets to fight her as they were mismatched by the Uber Telepath nova. There's really nothing in Red that is a bad showing for Nova other then being an idiot for giving the X-Men Red team a week to plan an attack. Additionally Nova was mind controlling an entire army at the time
    The Mag helmets were for all the non telepaths and to stop Nova for accessing more innocent people...Jean herself clearly didn't need it (Nova removed it and Jean still prevented her from attacking her mind), and Jean is the only one who confronted Nova at first, until it was Laura and Gabby's turn to play their parts.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    Only to those that sleep on Jean and her capabilities.
    Some people get mad if Jean is shown to be capable of anything besides yelling out for Scott and being helpless. Just ignore them.

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